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Prostitution

It is illegal for employers to require female employees to do sex acts as a condition of employment. If you get your way, that will change too.

You are incorrect. Sexual harassment rules will remain in place. The #metoo movement has made all more sensitive to sexual harassment rules not less.
 
Then acknowledge you favor eliminating all sex discrimination laws and all job safety laws. Recognize all people are "adults" and don't need government deciding what is best for them or protecting them.

Pimping and economically or otherwise force women into prostitution because legal with legalized prostitution. It is about eliminating protecting the most vulnerable females from one of the most danger professions - if not the most dangerous - for women on earth. It is not dangerous because it is illegal. It is dangerous because it is prostitution.

Please accept my apology for the tone of that message. I have the highest opinion of you from many topics and do understand your reasons are what you believe is best for women and overall in the balance. While I disagree with an opposite view of what the result of blanket legalizing of abortion would bring, your intentions are not questionable to me.
 
Every year this same topic is recycles and those wanting women to go into the profession of selling sex use the same absurd slogans they just then repeat over an over.

Every year this same topic is recycles and those wanting to keep it Illegal for people to go into the profession of selling sex use the same absurd slogans they just then repeat over an over.

Legalizing prostitute makes it legal to force women into prostitution provided it can not be proven illegal methods that can be proven were used in that pressure.

Speaking of absurd logic. Having prostitution as a legal profession will no more force people into it than legal accounting will force people into being accountants.

The same exactly-opposite-for-truth logic is used claiming legalizing prostitution stops pimping, when in fact legalizing prostitution inherently legalizes pimping.

I'm not going to say that this isn't true in the strictest sense, but it would change the nature of"pimping". If legal, whole businesses, as well as independent contractors, would arise. Which means managers and regional directors and the lot, regardless of title used. Why would there not be? But it would be done in prostitution the same as the rest of the business world. Managers would not be allowed to physically beat their workers as pimps now do theirs. Would it happen? Sure, it happens in all kinds of businesses now. Every negative thing that you would associate with pimping, outside of the actual sex work, happens in legit business now. The question then becomes whether such people get caught or exposed.

This is all about trying to force poor women into prostitution, while claiming this it to oppose religious people who claim the sex and women are more than just business and that women are more than just sexual pieces of meat.

As you ignore that there are men who also prostitute, women who are wanting this legal so that they can be in a legitimate business or legitimately get a male prostitute. There are women and men out there serving the high end customers making 5 and 6 figure incomes. They would much rather be legit.

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"I will only hire you if you have sex with me." Legal if prostitution is legal. "Have sex with me or I will fire you." Legal if prostitution is legal.

"Your job duties now include having sex with clients such as we say or you are fired." Legal if prostitution is legal.

"You have become to old and fat to perform you new job duty area of having sex with clients because clients don't want to have sex with you." Legal if prostitution is legal - a person incapable of performing job duties can be fired - and there is no unemployment coverage if an employee is fired for cause.

Again, in your logic of sex is no different than any other job duty so I gather all the above is ok with you. To me, it is criminal and should remain criminal. But, then, you did post that in your opinion sex is no different from any other job duty, so I gather you are fine with those?
Once again, talk about absurd logic.

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No sure what this has to do with this thread.

You lefties missed the boat on making fun of his name. We had President Hussein, now we have a JOHN in the White house.
 
Not being religious, I would not consider it "valid" either. However, I think we atheists do a great disservice to humanity by forgoing moral principles. It is why I remain a conservative in my moral outlook while still being a materialist. If anything, conservative morals are what can preserve society and allow greater happiness and prosperity in the here and now, because there will be no justice or reward for the downtrodden and miserable in the hereafter.

I would argue that prostitution should remain illegal on the basis that selling one's own organs should remain illegal: However regulated it may be, it creates perverse incentives that leaves the most vulnerable people open to legalized exploitation by the very worst people in society. To give one's body freely and consensually is one thing, in the same way that to give one's organs or blood to another person. To sell one's body and to commodify one's humanity is a dangerous road to go down.


In that first line, you admit to being an atheist, but then critisize atheists for forgoing morality. Clearly you have your own sense of morality, as do I. On what basis do you proclaim that atheists forgo morality? What is the percentage of atheists who do this?

I do reject traditional morality. I like to consider myself a fan of Cartesian scepticism. I don't accept anything on the basis of 'just because', or 'because this is how we have always thought', and I'm constantly reavulating things that I hold as truths. This does cause me to shift wildly in my views from time to time . . . err, advocating for the harrassment of public figures would be a good example of that. (Oh, by the way, if I never get back to that thread, then know that I concede.)

I don't view the trafficking of human organs as a good example of why prostitution is wrong AND should be illegal. You seem to be selling this general 'Selling your body is bad, mmkay?'' angle. "This seems similar to this other thing, so both are wrong!" First of all, why do we consider selling our organs to be wrong? Well, obviously there are certain organs that we can't live without, and if we can find those organs on the black market, then it probably means that somebody died to 'donate' those organs. There's also the fact that people have to endure a waiting list to receive live-saving organs, and circumventing this process can be considered to be unfair to those individuals who are abiding by the law.

Prostitution doesn't raise the same moral questions for me that black-market organ profiteering does. 'But they're both examples of body-selling!' doesn't work for me, because you still need to prove to me that 'body-selling' is wrong, and it what context. I'm not going to abide by some absolutist 'just because' line. The similarity between the two is only skin-deep, and only relavant to anyone who stops at their primal emotions.

That's not to say that I don't see a problem with selling one's body for sex. You really can't get past the envitablity that, at the very least, this sort of thing can be emotionally devastating, especially over time. My stance on it's legality, however, is similar to my stance on drugs: making it illegal doesn't actually stop anything; it just makes things worse. I don't want to see anyone I know or love have to resort to prostitution to survive, but the truth of the matter is, is that people selling sex out of necessity is as old as time, and so is the demand for it.

If we legalize it, then we get to run the pimps out of business, enforce age requirements, ensure the saftey of prostitutes, control the passage of STDs, and even curb hard drug-use. Not to mention that if this was an industry that we were actually taxing, we'd be able to invest more in schools and other public services.

I'm not going to ask anyone to like prostitution. My arguement is that it's illegal status does nothing to curb it's popularity, and everything to ensure that it's so much worse than it has to be.
 
Please accept my apology for the tone of that message. I have the highest opinion of you from many topics and do understand your reasons are what you believe is best for women and overall in the balance. While I disagree with an opposite view of what the result of blanket legalizing of abortion would bring, your intentions are not questionable to me.

This apology is to Lursa for one of my responses. She's VERY good people and want to acknowledge that even though differing on this particular topic.

Your mailbox is full so I can't send a brief apology personally.
 
Sex isn't the problem. Sex is a wonderful idea. People should get all of it they can. Sex for money, however, is a desperate, ugly business that does women no good. And yes, I do see it that way, but I don't insist that women see it that way at all. They are free to form their own opinions. I would hope they do, and set their sights on better ways of earning a living.

And why do your consider mine a strictly male opinion? I asked my wife about it and she says prostitution is indeed degrading to all women, not just the hookers. So it's an opinion shared by many, many women I suspect, maybe even the majority of women. You might just be in the minority on this issue.

As long as you do understand that you are giving an emotional plea. Which is fine as far as your own personal opinion goes. But in order to legalise prostitution or say it must stay illegal it is far better to use evidence based reasoning.

The opinion may be shared but that is irrelevant. If you both shared the opinion that jumping of a cliff is a good thing that would still not make it so. This is about your own personal shame. You find prostitution degrading. That does not mean others must also do so. There are women who quite like the job and whose only real problem is the stigma attached to it by people who force the idea of stigma.

As for why a man's view you were responsible for that in your very first post to which i replied. Post 109# to quote you.
Besides, what kind of loser are you if you have to pay for sex? It ain't that hard to get a woman of your own.
 
Every year this same topic is recycles and those wanting to keep it Illegal for people to go into the profession of selling sex use the same absurd slogans they just then repeat over an over.



Speaking of absurd logic. Having prostitution as a legal profession will no more force people into it than legal accounting will force people into being accountants.



I'm not going to say that this isn't true in the strictest sense, but it would change the nature of"pimping". If legal, whole businesses, as well as independent contractors, would arise. Which means managers and regional directors and the lot, regardless of title used. Why would there not be? But it would be done in prostitution the same as the rest of the business world. Managers would not be allowed to physically beat their workers as pimps now do theirs. Would it happen? Sure, it happens in all kinds of businesses now. Every negative thing that you would associate with pimping, outside of the actual sex work, happens in legit business now. The question then becomes whether such people get caught or exposed.



As you ignore that there are men who also prostitute, women who are wanting this legal so that they can be in a legitimate business or legitimately get a male prostitute. There are women and men out there serving the high end customers making 5 and 6 figure incomes. They would much rather be legit.

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Not one in 10,000 make a 6 figure income and $10,000 a year is a 5 figure income.
 
You lefties missed the boat on making fun of his name. We had President Hussein, now we have a JOHN in the White house.

Ok, very good. Carry on :)
 
You're asking if there's any valid argument against prostitution? If you don't say yes then you don't understand the issues the majority of prostitutes are facing. Many girls, women, men and boys who prostitute themselves come from abusive homes, sexual abuse and addiction issues for starters. Also many of them are addicted to drugs, alcohol or both. Many of these sex workers have low self esteem and also many have mental health issues. When you consider this, doesn't it sound abusive to make the selling of your body for sex legal, when we know all the mental health issues most of these individuals are facing? Seems to me encouraging these prostitutes to keep selling themselves for sex, by legalizing the trade, would be wrong.

I see prostitution as a way for a mentally disturbed individual to keep harming themselves. Kind of like a slow suicide. Not all prostitutes suffer from low self esteem, drug addiction and have been abused but enough do so that, just the States that have legalized this sounds good to me. I watched the Bunny Ranch series on HBO years ago and I have to say the women seemed like sex robots. I really don't think being a Prostitute is good for a person's mental health. I do wonder if it's the way we've been brought up and most of us feel having a lot of sex outside of marriage is wrong, don't we have to be taught it's wrong? If we could change the way society views sex everything would most likely change as far as so many mental health issues going along with prostitution. Shoot we're still working on racism and society excepting gays, lesbians, transgender folks etc. I don't see our American society accepting prostitution as being alright any time soon. They may vote for it to be legal but I see this as the wrong way to handle it.
 
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Not one in 10,000 make a 6 figure income and $10,000 a year is a 5 figure income.
Seriously? Out of all those points and that was all you could address?

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Should Donald JOHN Trump be punished? Just wondered.

I realize that you were addressing lurchadams, SDET, but in my ideal world where we had Swedish-style prostitution laws? Yes. Absolutely.
 
Many years have passed since my first detail, working vice, for the NYPD. Gambling was the thrust of our operations. The amount of money which exchanged hands was considered the backbone of organized crime. We barely touched the low hanging fruit and were busy 24/7. Prostitution was a target only when a political nuisance. For both working girls on the street and low end bookies, court was a revolving door for those who were non-violent. Small fines, 30 days in lockup or less, time served, pay the lawyer, see you next time/

Every now and then, at the urging of neighborhood organizations and local politicians the newspapers and 6 o'clock news would feature the bust of a small bordello. Occasionally with the John's on a perp walk. But basically, if it were out of sight, not associated with other crimes, few cared. We all heard the stories of underage runaway girls and boys, who fathered by a pimp who enjoyed chicken at the Port Authority Bus terminal, who were magically returned to their families. A rarer event since the families didn't want them in the first place.

The Johns were truck drivers, shoe salesmen, kids from the suburbs on an adventure, older straying husbands, doctors, lawyers, politicians, CEO's, sailors in port, regular guys and deviants. The religious and irrelegious, All colors and ethnic backgrounds

Working girls were single mothers more often than not, drug and alcohol abusers, college girls picking up easy side money, and the same for secretaries, nurses, teachers, and multi thousand dollar an hour hot models, airline stewardesses, whatever. Pimps and Madams connected to organized crime ran everything from the top to the bottom of the industry, with a few exceptions.

What made news most often was a working girl murdered on the job. The lurid death and lifestyle titilated the fantasies of the public. When it was out in the streets, annoying a neighborhood, the police came in for a sweep, chasing the girls to a different neighborhood. Still plenty of action at the tunnels, certain streets in neighborhoods too poor for anyone to care. Times Square became Disneyland.

With the arrival of the net, the streets were cleaner, safer for the girls, law enforcement had a new effective tool for finding runaways, underage girls forced into the life, and so on. A couple of overzealous local west coast politicians objected to the Millions of $'s incomes foe Craigs List and Backpage. It came crashing down. Still out there on other net platforms, a bit harder to find, definitely in the hands of pimps and madams, not so much flash and easy access. More girls back on the streets,

The Johns, still your next door neighbor, the divorced middle aged man, the married guy whose wife got fat and uninterested in sex, your Rabbi, Minister, school teacher, pharmacist, and so on. The girls just have different faces.

Call them all by whatever derogatory labels you want to use. It is still the oldest profession and it isn't going away. No simple answers, no greater morality, no excuses.

Making prostitution legal will not change the underlying reasons for it, nor take it out the hands of pimps and madams, or even cure the problem of underage participants, willing or not. There is no proof it will create more of the same, because there was never an accurate account of how many existed previously on the job. All that can be hoped for is some controls which minimize stds and violence. Your vision of morality is irrelevant. Your vision of right and wrong is irrelevant. Men who travel, still want sex and they are willing to pay. Show me a hotel which can't give referrals, for a dinner companion and entertainment.

continued
 
I'm almost 70, just a few months away, out with my wife this week to do some holiday shopping, see a show, dine out. We take a room at a high end hotel for a day and night, a convenience. I've been ill, need a place to rest in between whatever, she wants private time for a skin treatment, getting her hair done, manicure, feminine things, and some new outfits. A place to change. We check in, I'm wearing a quality suit and go to the hotel bar to wait for her as she prepares to go out for dinner. I expect to wait about a half hour for her to join me. We have an early dinner reservation and tickets for a show. While sitting at the bar, sipping diet ginger ales, three top end working girls come over and proposition me for a "date." All fine looking, educated, soft spoken and with quiet aplomb I tell them I am a flattered old man, thank them and explain I am waiting for my wife. All three girls were in their 20's. My wife arrived, ordered a bourbon and I told her what occurred, she laughed and said it her taste in purchasing my suit which attracted those girls and laughed. We left for dinner and an enjoyable evening together. How many more we can share, paramount on my mind.

I'd bet all three of those girls found what they wanted at the hotel bar. They tipped the bar tender, concierge, whoever referred them the evening's business and everyone went on with lives.
 
I'm almost 70, just a few months away, out with my wife this week to do some holiday shopping, see a show, dine out. We take a room at a high end hotel for a day and night, a convenience. I've been ill, need a place to rest in between whatever, she wants private time for a skin treatment, getting her hair done, manicure, feminine things, and some new outfits. A place to change. We check in, I'm wearing a quality suit and go to the hotel bar to wait for her as she prepares to go out for dinner. I expect to wait about a half hour for her to join me. We have an early dinner reservation and tickets for a show. While sitting at the bar, sipping diet ginger ales, three top end working girls come over and proposition me for a "date." All fine looking, educated, soft spoken and with quiet aplomb I tell them I am a flattered old man, thank them and explain I am waiting for my wife. All three girls were in their 20's. My wife arrived, ordered a bourbon and I told her what occurred, she laughed and said it her taste in purchasing my suit which attracted those girls and laughed. We left for dinner and an enjoyable evening together. How many more we can share, paramount on my mind.

I'd bet all three of those girls found what they wanted at the hotel bar. They tipped the bar tender, concierge, whoever referred them the evening's business and everyone went on with lives.

Sad you're making it seem so glamorous and harmless. You have no clue what the lives of those three young women were really like.
 
Seriously? Out of all those points and that was all you could address?

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The pro prostituting poor people and druggies side like to portray prostitution as glamorous and a noble highly profitable profession - when they make little money and it is the most dangerous profession any female can possibly enter. Historically, most serial rapist-murderers targets prostitutes and few prostitutes won't be beat now and then. 35 to 55% contract STDs from prostitution - most notable being incurable HIV/AIDS - and accordingly also spread STDs.

This is the "employment" you want to make available to women claiming this sets them free. Very despicable view of young poor people in my opinion.
 
Sad you're making it seem so glamorous and harmless. You have no clue what the lives of those three young women were really like.

Ain't nothing glamorous about it. It is still the conveyance of flesh, at no matter what level, what cost. Ask Eliot Spitzer, prosecutor and user, far from the only one.

What you fail to understand, there is no difference between working the streets with working an upper class hotel bar. You run to judgment by your morals with no understanding of what is being said. Your morality contributes no solutions, merely satisfies whatever insecurities your feelings of moral superiority may be.

I'm only telling you part of what I have seen. Not my moral judgments or opinions. Yet you, with no understanding, proclaim your superiority with no viable solutions to a problem that has existed since the dawn of time for humans.
 
True story about a twenty yr old college student who went missing.

A young college student goes missing after leaving work at a strip club and her parents think she was a waitress at the club. The 20 yr old is an only child and had left the city she grew up in to attend college and start her new life. To help will bills and college tuition this young woman gets involved in the sex industry. She's stripping, prostituting, doing web cams, sending nude photos for money, dealing drugs etc. During the investigation to find her the parents learn of their only daughters secret life. Also this young woman had started using cocaine, meth, prescription uppers all through high school and was illegally drinking at the club. The strip club was ran by the mafia and there were so many people involved in this young woman's life they decide she must have been kidnapped for sex trafficking. Two months after she went missing a private organization offers to search water ways near where this gal was last seen, they find her and her car at the bottom of a lake at a City park. It's decided she was high on drugs and alcohol and drove into the lake off a boat ramp by mistake. A life lost due to deciding to be involved in the sex industry to make money. Also when you read her social media accounts she talked about her work and you could tell the men pretty much nauseated her. The people she was involving herself with did not care about her age and drug use. To this day nobody really knows why this young woman lost her life, living that kind of lifestyle left so many possibilities as to why she ended up with the fishes. When you get involved in prostitution you can end up getting involved with very sleazy people who do not give a hoot about your well being.
 
Ain't nothing glamorous about it. It is still the conveyance of flesh, at no matter what level, what cost. Ask Eliot Spitzer, prosecutor and user, far from the only one.

What you fail to understand, there is no difference between working the streets with working an upper class hotel bar. You run to judgment by your morals with no understanding of what is being said. Your morality contributes no solutions, merely satisfies whatever insecurities your feelings of moral superiority may be.

I'm only telling you part of what I have seen. Not my moral judgments or opinions. Yet you, with no understanding, proclaim your superiority with no viable solutions to a problem that has existed since the dawn of time for humans.

How am I showing moral superiority? I've posted how prostituting ones self is dangerous for anyone who decides to make money off of selling their bodies. Morals come into it when you realize how others may judge you, the men you're having sex with and how the prostitute really feels about selling themselves for sex. has nothing to do with me morally judging prostitution. It's about what I've experienced in life from others judging women and what they feel are immoral acts.
 
How am I showing moral superiority? I've posted how prostituting ones self is dangerous for anyone who decides to make money off of selling their bodies. Morals come into it when you realize how others may judge you, the men you're having sex with and how the prostitute really feels about selling themselves for sex. has nothing to do with me morally judging prostitution. It's about what I've experienced in life from others judging women and what they feel are immoral acts.

Read what you write.
 
Read what you write.

I have and like I said, I don't understand how you think I'm showing moral superiority. I've emphasized the dangers of prostitution to a persons physical and mental health.
 
Really dont care if you believe me or not. :shrug:

Dont care if you believe the article I linked.

Dont care much what you believe...you posted an opinion, I posted an opinion......move on to the next thread I suppose.
You car enough to reply ;)
 
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