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Prostitution

Felis Leo said:
I value the sanctity of human life and the principle that the law is meant to protect the shield the weak and vulnerable.
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The law as it is in most parts of this country specifically tortures the weak and vulnerable.
For the purposes of this discussion, I am pointing at the prostitutes as the weak and vulnerable.

You are functioning under the illusion that keeping it illegal will make it go away somehow, thus no more prostitutes and no more problem. It is just that, an illusion.
I'm sure that you must understand just how much of an illusion it really is.
If you don't, I'm about to tell you some very bad news.
 
Rich2018 said:
Prostitution is illegal in most US states but:


Is there any valid argument against prostitution ?
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In this country with all the advantages each individual has if they seek them the question is why would someone choose giving away a piece of themselves putting their health at risk with every john they lay with. That's a moral question I know there are some in this forum can't comprehend.

A valid argument against prostitution is it degrades our society at the same time is a health hazard.
 
Felis Leo said:
I must correct you, MovingPictures. By keeping prostitution illegal, society is not telling people what they can do with their bodies. Just what they can buy and sell. Men and women can freely have sex with as many partners as they so choose. They just cannot sell themselves into sexual slavery.
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:doh

It's not "slavery" when it's consensual.

When you go out and date and do the whole scene with someone, you're financially investing in what you expect to become a sexual relationship, so you're not morally any better than those prostitutes.

And most sex workers are not weak people. They're fairly strong people that simply have made a career of their sexuality.
 
vesper said:
In this country with all the advantages each individual has if they seek them the question is why would someone choose giving away a piece of themselves putting their health at risk with every john they lay with. That's a moral question I know there are some in this forum can't comprehend.

A valid argument against prostitution is it degrades our society at the same time is a health hazard.
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That is a VERY VALID argument against prostitution and on many levels I agree with you except for any part of said argument which presupposes that prostitution will just go away as a result.
 
MovingPictures said:
:doh

It's not "slavery" when it's consensual.

When you go out and date and do the whole scene with someone, you're financially investing in what you expect to become a sexual relationship, so you're not morally any better than those prostitutes.

And most sex workers are not weak people. They're fairly strong people that simply have made a career of their sexuality.
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I'd change the word "strong" and replace it with "tough" because unfortunately a lot of tough people don't remain tough forever...the risks and challenges of their life choices eventually wear them down.

But for the moment at hand, they are indeed a pretty tough group of people.
The difference is, strong people tend to hold up better over time.

I love telling people that my wife is "one tough lil chickie" but she is so much more than that.
She is downright STRONG. Thus, she is more than just "tough".
 
MovingPictures said:
Then you don't value freedom, actually. You're only valuing freedom when it's something you condone, while making it your personal business the completely consensual choices of others.
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Two points, MovingPictures: First, I am very much about allowing freedom when I believe people have capacity to exercise a free choice, and are not simply in a position of being faced with a Hobson's Choice. Because we must ask: Are the majority of women who make the choice to practice prostitution in a position where they have the capacity to make such a choice? Turning to the anecdotal for a moment, have you known anyone without severe psychological or emotional issues who entered into prostitution when there weren't other viable options available to them? And I do not mean the "sex industry" as in pornography or camgirls, but prostitution?

MovingPictures said:
And it's kind of odd for you to label acts you disagree with "sin" considering you're an atheist.
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I am actually paraphrasing Milton Friedman, who was discussing the "Good Samaritan" paradox:



I take it from his quote: "If you are not free to sin, you are not free to be virtuous." I actually do not view the act of prostitution as a "sin" since I do not believe in God. And I do not believe the act of prostituting oneself as immoral either. I view it rather as an act of self-harm and degradation. It is much the same way that I view the act of suicide as neither a sin or immoral; just an incredibly harmful, destructive act. If anything, I think people who use prostitutes and exploit them for their own sexual pleasure are closer to being "sinful."
 
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Felis Leo said:
What social ill is created by keeping prostitution illegal?
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All of them:
1. Sexual harassment and sexual assault - mostly unreported.
2. Drug use
3. Exploitation by pimps and traffickers
4. Crime - particularly the kind that seems magnetic to underground prostitution
5. Disease


Felis Leo said:
And what social benefit is created through its legalization?
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1. Disease control - sex workers would be required to submit to monitoring and preventive health measures
2. Reduced exploitation - licensed sex workers do not require pimps for protection, thus no licensing of pimps
3. Drug use - licensed sex workers would also have to submit to some form of drug screening
4. With the elimination of its underground nature, a lot associated crime would be reduced
5. Sexual assault - again with licensed sex workers in a controlled environment you would see a reduction in assaults and reporting of those assaults which do take place
 
Felis Leo said:
In your opinion, MovingPictures, would that include trafficking in harvested organs and tissue if the people voluntarily sold their organs on the open market?
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Paid intercourse vs an open market for organs that are necessary to live?

C'mon, it's not even close or remotely comparable.
 
Crosscheck said:
Who am I to say you can't agree to have sex with someone for a steak dinner? These are those type of questions that I can see both sides. Surely don't want to see my daughter finishing a shift at the local brothel.

One can legally pay someone for a full body massage. This is pretty intimate to have someone's hand up and down your body giving you pleasure. But should it be legal to massage one's genitals? Should there be a difference from massaging one's butt cheeks and massaging one's genitalia?
I simply don't know what is the correct answer.

As for the conservative morals am not really certain what that is. We have a conservative in the office of president and need I say more?
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If you keep accurate records of the ID of all parties involved, with a check to make sure that they are legally adult, and you roll a camera, it's not prostitution anymore, it's porno film production.

You're not required to keep the material after it is produced, or distribute it for sale.
So the difference as far as the courts are concerned, between prostitution and film production is the presence of bookkeeping and ID records, and a camera.

Thus if you have a GoPro and an all in one scanner, copier, fax machine and a computer to connect it to, you're a porn producer, not a prostitution client.

Do a search on "2257 regulations".

Now tell me how prostitution goes away by keeping it illegal.
From where I sit, virtually one hundred percent of ALL prostitution between consenting adults could very well be legal right now.
Just make sure you don't run out of blank videocassettes or SD memory cards.
 
In fact, in the olden days in some countries, paying a prostitute to sit for a drawing or a painting immediately rendered it legal, because you were paying the legitimate business woman as a model. The fact that you might have had sex with her at some point is irrelevant.

Thus, even today, if you're drawing, photographing or otherwise creating any kind of art, it's not prostitution anymore.
 
sangha said:
That makes a lot of sense in theory

But in reality, places that allow prostitution see an increase in sexual trafficking.
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so then you have documentation of increased sex trafficking in Nevada as compared to the rest of the country?
 
Felis Leo said:
I would argue that prostitution should remain illegal on the basis that selling one's own organs should remain illegal: However regulated it may be, it creates perverse incentives that leaves the most vulnerable people open to legalized exploitation by the very worst people in society.
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Perversion may be among the largest causes that drive people to seek out prostitutes.
 
Felis Leo said:
Not being religious, I would not consider it "valid" either. However, I think we atheists do a great disservice to humanity by forgoing moral principles. It is why I remain a conservative in my moral outlook while still being a materialist. If anything, conservative morals are what can preserve society and allow greater happiness and prosperity in the here and now, because there will be no justice or reward for the downtrodden and miserable in the hereafter.

I would argue that prostitution should remain illegal on the basis that selling one's own organs should remain illegal: However regulated it may be, it creates perverse incentives that leaves the most vulnerable people open to legalized exploitation by the very worst people in society. To give one's body freely and consensually is one thing, in the same way that to give one's organs or blood to another person. To sell one's body and to commodify one's humanity is a dangerous road to go down.
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Being religious, I do not consider atheist to be without morals. Indeed there seem to be quite a number of universal morals. And by that I mean that they are shared regardless of religion, culture, or location. Morals against unnecessary killing, thief, and many others.

I will disagree partly with your second point. While there is much that I wish humans would do in betterment of themselves, ultimately they must have that choice to do what they want, whether they feel it is right, wrong, or neutral.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Then again, maybe some people can only function through the services of a prostitute, and what you wind up with when that isn't available might be worse. Not saying I am right, not even saying that I make the best argument, just saying that I've observed the alternative, and it's every bit as ugly as prostitution, maybe uglier.
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What did you observe?

Checkerboard Strangler said:
I'm sure that you must understand just how much of an illusion it really is.
If you don't, I'm about to tell you some very bad news.
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That bad huh?
 
Felis Leo said:
I would want to know, Slyfox696: What in your opinion is the best argument (or arguments) for legalization? What social ill is created by keeping prostitution illegal? And what social benefit is created through its legalization?
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This is the wrong question to be asking. We should never consider what good making something legal does. It should always be what ill are we preventing from making something illegal, and does preventing that ill outweigh freedoms and positive results, or prevent the violation of the rights of other than the one doing the action.
 
sangha said:
That makes a lot of sense in theory

But in reality, places that allow prostitution see an increase in sexual trafficking.
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Since sex districts are regulated, you would have to instead say that "LOCATIONS which allow prostitution see an increase in sex trafficking" however since it is legal in those locations, any trafficking which occurs outside of those legal markets is easily detected and prosecuted, often to the fullest extent of the law.

Locations which allow pot dispensaries see an increase in pot purchases....IN the pot dispensaries.

There are NO "places" in the USA that just "allow prostitution".
In the eight Nevada counties that allow it, it's heavily regulated, VERY heavily.
Setting up a legal brothel in Nevada is almost as difficult as opening a casino.
 
Rich2018 said:
Prostitution is illegal in most US states but:


Is there any valid argument against prostitution ?
Click to expand...

Aah, hookers, slags, strumpets, slatterns, slappers, bawds, floozies, doxies, harlots, whores, molls and concubines.

Now where were we? Oh yes...
 
Felis Leo said:
Well, if your ultimate metric of whether a policy is desirable is the freedom of personal choice that policy provides, I can completely respect that, MovingPictures. I too value freedom, because freedom allows one to engage in acts of goodness as much as it allows one to engage in acts of sin. But this is one place where I draw a strong line: I value the sanctity of human life and the principle that the law is meant to protect the shield the weak and vulnerable. As such, I am against legalizing prostitution, just as I am against legalizing the buying and selling of organs and the legalization of suicide.
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Do you place quantity of life over quality of life? If I am in such pain from a disease or sickness or condition and being pain free means spaced out of my mind, why should I not have the freedom to terminate early?
 
DDD said:
What did you observe?
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Everything that I have also observed in the illegal and underground prostitution trade, only it was directed at innocent people who were not consenting parties to any kind of transaction.

Disease, drug use, crime, violence, sexual assault, all perpetrated against people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Perhaps you believe you made a smartass question. No matter, I still did my best to provide you with an honest answer.
 
vesper said:
In this country with all the advantages each individual has if they seek them the question is why would someone choose giving away a piece of themselves putting their health at risk with every john they lay with. That's a moral question I know there are some in this forum can't comprehend.

A valid argument against prostitution is it degrades our society at the same time is a health hazard.
Click to expand...

I would invalidate that argument on the fact that the exact same acts and frequency also occur with those who have sex with multiple partners for free. Now that is not to say that such isn't a valid argument against multiple partners, in and of itself. Simply that such reasoning does nothing to distinguish between paid and unpaid sex.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Everything that I have also observed in the illegal and underground prostitution trade, only it was directed at innocent people who were not consenting parties to any kind of transaction.

Disease, drug use, crime, violence, sexual assault, all perpetrated against people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Perhaps you believe you made a smartass question. No matter, I still did my best to provide you with an honest answer.
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It does not matters what I believed when I asked you. You claimed that you have made an observation in the matter, and it sounds like you are a law enforcer of some kind. So I was interested to know more from someone that has insight legally in the matter.

I particularly want to know how does not having prostitution leads to even worse outcomes. Is it that when prostitution was not available that then the vulnerable and the weak that were not consenting but were found in the wrong place and the wrong time were paying for it? If you have observed it, then might you provide some anecdotal evidence for instance?

Thank you.
 
Rich2018 said:
Prostitution is illegal in most US states but:


Is there any valid argument against prostitution ?
Click to expand...

Not to keep it illegal no . .
Legalize it, regulate it and tax it like any other business . .

as for SUBJECTIVE reasons im sure there are plenty just like anything else but again . . based on legality i see none.
People are already allowed to sell their body and services in many many ways if it involves a sexual act POOF its magically illegal? thats beyond stupid.
 
uptower said:
Aah, hookers, slags, strumpets, slatterns, slappers, bawds, floozies, doxies, harlots, whores, molls and concubines.

Now where were we? Oh yes...
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So far in this discussion I get the impression that most of the participants are thinking of the typical streetwalking hooker that you see in a depressed neighborhood, rampant with crime, drugs and violence.

Just a side note: You may also want to take stock of the wider variety of professionals out there, many of whom are relatively ordinary looking college girls, or even GUYS. Many of them are paying their way through school by turning a few selective tricks here and there, mostly on an outcall basis with clients who they pre-screen carefully first.

You would be very surprised to find out how many cute little co-eds are in the business. Student debt sucks, doesn't it?

You'd also possibly be surprised at how many aspiring actresses take part in the business on the side when acting jobs aren't coming in thick and fast. Many of their clientele might turn out to be surprisingly high brow. They pay a visit to a home in Bel-Air or Brentwood, share company with high powered exec, get their money and go home, and pay the rent.
They call themselves "escorts" but that's something of a stretch.

And there is no way on earth law enforcement can even remotely keep track of it.
 
DDD said:
It does not matters what I believed when I asked you. You claimed that you have made an observation in the matter, and it sounds like you are a law enforcer of some kind. So I was interested to know more from someone that has insight legally in the matter.

I particularly want to know how does not having prostitution leads to even worse outcomes. Is it that when prostitution was not available that then the vulnerable and the weak that were not consenting but were found in the wrong place and the wrong time were paying for it? If you have observed it, then might you provide some anecdotal evidence for instance?

Thank you.
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Nope, not a cop.
For about ten years I was a hardcore crack cocaine addict and I came to know more than a few prostitutes because, surprise, it comes with the territory.
I just learned that there are people who genuinely cannot create intimate or sexual relations with others in a normal way, but they meet their needs through prostitutes however they can.
And since they are inflicted with what many think of as a personality flaw of that nature, if they cannot avail themselves of a sex worker, their behavior changes for the worse.

It's been twenty-six years since I left that sordid coke habit behind.
I'm a survivor, therefore I am very lucky.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
So far in this discussion I get the impression that most of the participants are thinking of the typical streetwalking hooker that you see in a depressed neighborhood, rampant with crime, drugs and violence.

Just a side note: You may also want to take stock of the wider variety of professionals out there, many of whom are relatively ordinary looking college girls, or even GUYS. Many of them are paying their way through school by turning a few selective tricks here and there, mostly on an outcall basis with clients who they pre-screen carefully first.

You would be very surprised to find out how many cute little co-eds are in the business. Student debt sucks, doesn't it?

You'd also possibly be surprised at how many aspiring actresses take part in the business on the side when acting jobs aren't coming in thick and fast. Many of their clientele might turn out to be surprisingly high brow. They pay a visit to a home in Bel-Air or Brentwood, share company with high powered exec, get their money and go home, and pay the rent.
They call themselves "escorts" but that's something of a stretch.

And there is no way on earth law enforcement can even remotely keep track of it.
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damn, I forgot 'escorts' and 'call girls'

Hell yeah it should be legal. Free market, folks, to hell with the mesopotamian sky genie. And yes, taking it out from underground reduces the power of organized criminals who seek to control the trade.
 
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