• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

How many immigrants should we take in?

What percentage of people in the USA should be immigrants?

  • Less than it is now at 13.5%

    Votes: 27 67.5%

  • Keep it at 13.5%

    Votes: 6 15.0%

  • At least 20%

    Votes: 2 5.0%

  • At least 30%

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • At least 40%

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • At least 50%

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Over 50%

    Votes: 5 12.5%
  • Total voters
    40
RabidAlpaca said:
Correlation is not causation. The number of pirates has decreased during the last 200 years as global temperatures have risen. Therefore lack of pirates is making the world warm.

graph.png


You've shown no connection between the two. You just picked two out of a thousand data sets and pretended you know the whole story.



You don't have to be willing to be an immigrant, chief.
Click to expand...
Your example is things that have no plausible connection, whereas there's an obvious connection between wages and immigration.

How many houses and/or employees do you have?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
 
Mithros said:
The median wages of full time male employees is highly correlated to the median wages of all male employees.. As we'd expect.

That chart says nothing about immigrants. (Immigration is actually correlated with *higher* wages.)
Click to expand...
Immigration has gone up while median wages have fallen. My chart clearly shows that. Your claim needs some citation.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
 
phattonez said:
Immigration has gone up while median wages have fallen. My chart clearly shows that. Your claim needs some citation.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
Click to expand...

Immigration isn't even on your chart. It's just a plot of median male income vs time.

Citations:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X16304466
http://giovanniperi.ucdavis.edu/upl...economic_value_of_cultural_diversity_2006.pdf
Immigrants are carriers of a variety of ideas and abilities, and are an important factor input into the process of technological progress. More than their actual number, however, their composition seems to be crucial issue in stimulating the rate of technological progress in the destination country. In fact, a large number of studies, particularly at the micro level, support the claim that diversity has productivity-enhancing effects.
...
At a more aggregate level, Ottaviano and Peri (2006) find that US-born citizens living in metropolitan areas with higher share of foreign-born workers experienced a significant increase in their wage and in the rental price, implying that a more multicultural urban environment makes US-born citizens more productive.
​
 
Mithros said:
Immigration isn't even on your chart. It's just a plot of median male income vs time.

Citations:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X16304466
http://giovanniperi.ucdavis.edu/upl...economic_value_of_cultural_diversity_2006.pdf
Immigrants are carriers of a variety of ideas and abilities, and are an important factor input into the process of technological progress. More than their actual number, however, their composition seems to be crucial issue in stimulating the rate of technological progress in the destination country. In fact, a large number of studies, particularly at the micro level, support the claim that diversity has productivity-enhancing effects.​
Click to expand...


Do you not know immigration trends? It's really simple:

90


Median wages peaked around the 1970s. Immigration was at its lowest in the 1970s. Wages have continued to fall since then while immigration has kept on increasing.

...
At a more aggregate level, Ottaviano and Peri (2006) find that US-born citizens living in metropolitan areas with higher share of foreign-born workers experienced a significant increase in their wage and in the rental price, implying that a more multicultural urban environment makes US-born citizens more productive.
Click to expand...
​

Immigrants tend to flock to where the jobs are and where the economic growth is. What a stupid claim that the authors make.
 
Ideally the USA should be taking in between 300,000 and 800,000 immigrants per year. But given the large numbers of illegal immigrants/undocumented aliens living within the USA perhaps the US Government could accept only 150,000 - 400,000 new immigrants per year and make up the the total number by finding a path to citizenship for the millions of "suitable" immigrants already illegally within its borders. Those who are not "suitable" should be deported back to their country of origin but their children born in the US should be given the choice to remain or to return when they are able to support themselves. In this way the number of undocumented aliens living illegally in America could be reduced greatly in about 30 years.

Of course this would have to be done in conjunction with effective border control to stem the tides of new illegal and undocumented aliens from entering the USA so effective border control is a necessary pre-requisite before the millions of illegal and undocumented aliens can be either absorbed or deported.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Last edited:
phattonez said:
Do you not know immigration trends? It's really simple:

90


Median wages peaked around the 1970s. Immigration was at its lowest in the 1970s. Wages have continued to fall since then while immigration has kept on increasing.



Immigrants tend to flock to where the jobs are and where the economic growth is. What a stupid claim that the authors make.
Click to expand...

You're correlating by eye with extrapolated data from an anti-immigration website, discounting rigorous statistical world, and yet you call others stupid.

Lets look at the data without cropping it or extrapolating 40+ years into the future.
p-37-1.jpg

From the end of the Civil War until the end of the First World War, immigrants made up 14% of the population. That decreased from from 14.7% in 1910 to a low of 4.7% in 1970 before rebounding to 13% in 2010.

Those are pretty stable trends. If your claim had any merit, we'd expect to detect the opposite changes in wages. Instead we see the highest wage growth in the 40s-70s with immigrants making up the same percentage of the population as with the flat wage growth in the 1970's -2000s. That's not correlation.
 
We are pretty much all immigrants at one time or another. That is nowhere near the issue. The issue is assimilation or lack thereof as pushed by progressives who require small divided cabals of misguided people to aid them gain power. These indoctrinated masses would otherwise be unified in their opportunities of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
 
phattonez said:
There is no good response to this video that immigration defenders can make.
Click to expand...

Aye.

When the logic is unassailable, they can distract and attempt to play on your "feelings". Which is what we see these days. Someone pointed out the long academic career of Jim Acosta earlier and the best he can come up with is nuh-uh when berating the president over a long train of foreign nationals marching to our borders.

The hypocrisy on display is vast and wretched.

"In a surprising breach of etiquette, President Barack Obama's Rose Garden remarks on Friday were interrupted by heckling from reporter Neil Munro of the website Daily Caller, whose editor-in-chief is conservative commentator Tucker Carlson.

Obama, announcing a change of policy that would allow the children of illegal immigrants to avoid deportation if they meet certain criteria, was interrupted mid-speech by Munro.

"Why’d you favor foreigners over Americans?” Munro shouted.

“Excuse me, sir, but it’s not time for questions," Obama responded.

“Are you going to take questions?” Munro asked.

“Not while I’m speaking.” Obama said."
 
phattonez said:
Nigeria has 190 million people. You're fine with them all moving here as long as it's legal?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
Click to expand...

Yes, simple and plain forward! It’s like this and, this might be a bad example but, you have to fill out your paperwork for a license and take a test and, etc. now, is there a another way to get a license besides going to the dmv?
 
It’s funny we’re arguing about how many people we should let in. The democrats want to lecture the Americans about how we need to let people in the country. And then the wages are not enough to live. Here’s a another logical solution stop being that guy who is just showing up because it’s a job and start taking pride in the job
 
Mithros said:
You're correlating by eye with extrapolated data from an anti-immigration website, discounting rigorous statistical world, and yet you call others stupid.
Click to expand...

Were the figures that they posted incorrect?

Lets look at the data without cropping it or extrapolating 40+ years into the future.
p-37-1.jpg

From the end of the Civil War until the end of the First World War, immigrants made up 14% of the population. That decreased from from 14.7% in 1910 to a low of 4.7% in 1970 before rebounding to 13% in 2010.

Those are pretty stable trends. If your claim had any merit, we'd expect to detect the opposite changes in wages. Instead we see the highest wage growth in the 40s-70s with immigrants making up the same percentage of the population as with the flat wage growth in the 1970's -2000s. That's not correlation.
Click to expand...

Are you for real? So the highest wage growth came about a decade or two after we paused immigration, and this is your evidence that immigration has no impact on wages? On the other hand, when we opened immigration back up in the 60s, we went back to flat or negative wage growth within a decade or two.

Sound pretty bad for your case.
 
TheRepublican said:
Yes, simple and plain forward! It’s like this and, this might be a bad example but, you have to fill out your paperwork for a license and take a test and, etc. now, is there a another way to get a license besides going to the dmv?
Click to expand...

So why is Nigeria such a dump?
 
phattonez said:
Were the figures that they posted incorrect?
Click to expand...
Were the figures by an anti-immigration site that extrapolated immigration rates 40 years into the future incorrect? Hmm. I suppose we'll know in 40 years. But predictions by partisans don't tend to age well. (Neither does nationalism or racism)


phattonez said:
Are you for real? So the highest wage growth came about a decade or two after we paused immigration, and this is your evidence that immigration has no impact on wages? On the other hand, when we opened immigration back up in the 60s, we went back to flat or negative wage growth within a decade or two.

Sound pretty bad for your case.
Click to expand...

Plot the data, run a regression test, and then lets see how well your "analysis" holds up

What are we measuring? Is it median wage or real wage growth? And are we talking the percentage of immigrates in the population, or the number of new immigrants in a year. Your "analysis" is that that the influx of immigrants from 1964 to 1973 contribute to the highest growth in wages, but then magically in 1974 the same immigrants make wages go stagnant. Hell, get me the data and I'll do it for you.

(FYI, The end of the economic boom from the rebuilding of Europe and Japan after WWII is generally regarded as the culprit for the end of real wage growth in 1974)..
 
Mithros said:
Plot the data, run a regression test, and then lets see how well your "analysis" holds up

What are we measuring? Is it median wage or real wage growth? And are we talking the percentage of immigrates in the population, or the number of new immigrants in a year. Your "analysis" is that that the influx of immigrants from 1964 to 1973 contribute to the highest growth in wages, but then magically in 1974 the same immigrants make wages go stagnant. Hell, get me the data and I'll do it for you.

(FYI, The end of the economic boom from the rebuilding of Europe and Japan after WWII is generally regarded as the culprit for the end of real wage growth in 1974)..
Click to expand...

Real median wages. Like I said, the effects of immigration take years to take effect. Limiting immigration wouldn't immediately cause wages to rise, and neither would the reintroduction of immigration immediately cause wages to fall. These effects take years, decades to take place.

It's really very simple. When you increase supply, price falls ceteris paribus. There's no reason why this would be true for goods but not for labor.
 
Acadia said:
Older immigrants might never fully learn English, but they should not encourage it to propagate. They should also have a means of supporting themselves or have someone who can and will support them since speaking English is a requirement for most every job in America.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Being bilingual is a good skill, but the emphasis is learning the language of the country well enough to function. We shouldn't have to print DMV forms in 50 different languages.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom