Retirement age

Waddy said:

I'm going to suggest something kinda wild; suppose we treat automation like workers? Make machines pay into the tax system as if they were human workers. So if automation displaces 5 workers the new machines (or software) would be responsible for paying what those 5 workers would have paid into SS and other payroll taxes.

It could get complicated figuring it all out, but that's why we have advanced computers.

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I've seen that proposed before. Doesn't it seem like penalizing advancement or efficiency?
Regards,
CP

noonereal said:

I am "sticking it" to no one.

I understand that we are all a part of a tribe and that we all contribute to that tribe.
Problem is that we all don't benefit equally from the cumulative toil.
Our system rewards those that have capital FAR to much and those that toil far to little.
My proposal would simply look to allow those whose back was used and were not compensated as well as others to be a bit less hungry in their old age.

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My social security benefit payments were based upon the amount I paid in SS taxes over the last 50 years. If I had paid more in I would have gotten more out and if I had paid less in I would have gotten less out.

concernedpuma said:

I've seen that proposed before. Doesn't it seem like penalizing advancement or efficiency?
Regards,
CP

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Honestly, I doubt if it would even work. Our problem going forward is that more and more jobs are technical and too many humans just plain aren't technical and never will be. Some people, a LOT of people, are best suited to working with their hands, and would probably make pretty good old school craftsmen. There isn't much call for that anymore. And those people have lost value in the marketplace.

But the complexity of auto repair, electrical work, even plumbing are beyond what a lot of people can cope with. A modern high tech world is a great idea, but it's going to leave a lot of people in the dust.

concernedpuma said:

I've seen that proposed before. Doesn't it seem like penalizing advancement or efficiency?
Regards,
CP

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I'd be more concerned with the likely personification of those machines. Tax them, next thing is citizenship and rights. We might no longer be able to view them as metal and plastic slaves. They will be wanting vacations, bathroom and smoking breaks, free imported beer when voting, and now that scientists are claim AI systems can learn their prejudices about different people, including a natural sense of sexual gradation and deviancy, this would open one heck of a can of worms. My God! They may want Christmas bonuses! And gifts. What do you buy a robot for Christmas? A can of lube? Think of the gender problems that could develop? The scandals? Do we really want to go down this path?

I'm going to fight the urge to make a Star Trek: Voyager reference, here.

OldFatGuy said:

I'd be more concerned with the likely personification of those machines. Tax them, next thing is citizenship and rights. We might no longer be able to view them as metal and plastic slaves. They will be wanting vacations, bathroom and smoking breaks, free imported beer when voting, and now that scientists are claim AI systems can learn their prejudices about different people, including a natural sense of sexual gradation and deviancy, this would open one heck of a can of worms. My God! They may want Christmas bonuses! And gifts. What do you buy a robot for Christmas? A can of lube? Think of the gender problems that could develop? The scandals? Do we really want to go down this path?

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I enjoyed reading your humorous post. Thank you for not hating, but rather elevating!
Regards,
CP

Thank you.

jimbo said:

Even so, we all pay in.

Except, of course, for the 50% that don't.

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You don't then understand how Social Security works.

I never said anything about by birth. In fact much of the investor class, your words, not mine, was not born into the investor class. but got there due to there due to their own hard work and working smart. Nor did I say that either had more merit than the other.

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This is total rubbish.

Fact:

The #1 indicator of future wealth of a child at birth is the parents socioeconomic standing at birth.

#2 most frequent determiner of financial success, right time, right place. (luck)

Let's face it, we are literally brainwashed as children into believing hard work is key to success. Sadly it's just not true.

In fact the hardest job I ever had found me exempt from minimum wage and over time laws while the easiest job I ever had put me in the top 2%.

I found this to be common throughout my life.

marke said:

My social security benefit payments were based upon the amount I paid in SS taxes over the last 50 years. If I had paid more in I would have gotten more out and if I had paid less in I would have gotten less out.

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Correct, point?

(It is actually based on you top 35 years of earnings. )

noonereal said:

Correct, point?

(It is actually based on you top 35 years of earnings. )

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What the government pays me in social security benefits is not welfare, it is what the government owes me from money it took from me for 50 years to fund my retirement.

rickc said:

in my industry construction you don't see many 65 year.old.ironworkers, or.rod busters or form carpenters.

i guess if you have always worked in an office it might seem like a good idea.

another thing older workers face is age discrimination. they are at the top of their earning years. cheaper to hire younger workers and replace those old expensive outdated workers.

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I used to be a reflexive proponent of raising the security age - it seemed a way to help save the system by focusing resources on the more-vulnerable (the older). The first line, here, is a point that was made, I believe, of all people, by Nancy Pelosi, but it's a good one. Some professions and working in some professions ruin the body. Many of them are less-well-compensated professions, meaning that those who would be expected to get some new job greeting at Wal Mart or who would be expected to just hold on with savings until retirement kicked in are least-well-suited to doing so.

Full Disclosure - I have gone to some length laying out my own preferred Social Security reform, and am a bit of a biased actor when I come to that conclusion. That being said, I still think that the point that not everyone works a desk is a reasonable one.

marke said:

What the government pays me in social security benefits is not welfare, it is what the government owes me from money it took from me for 50 years to fund my retirement.

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No it didn't. It took that money to pay for someone else's retirement, just like people are having money taken from them today to pay current recipients.

noonereal said:

Fact:

The #1 indicator of future wealth of a child at birth is the parents socioeconomic standing at birth.

#2 most frequent determiner of financial success, right time, right place. (luck)

Let's face it, we are literally brainwashed as children into believing hard work is key to success. Sadly it's just not true.

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That's an interesting pair of claims. I've done some reading in this area, and they seem to clash wit the available data. Would you mind sourcing them?

marke said:

What the government pays me in social security benefits is not welfare, it is what the government owes me from money it took from me for 50 years to fund my retirement.

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i never called it welfare.

???????????????

why do you bring that up?

BTW it is not the money they WITHHELD, that was spent on your grandma. (I am proud of you, taking care of grandma)

The money you get is from your grandchildren, God love those generous former tots.

A great system IMHO. It is the role of the young and healthy of the tribe to provide for the less fortunate and old.

cpwill said:

That's an interesting pair of claims. I've done some reading in this area, and they seem to clash wit the available data. Would you mind sourcing them?

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Bullshi!.

If you did reading (not from a wingnut site) you known damned well what I posted is fact.

-----------------------------

Trump and his alternative truth nonsense is spreading like wildfire

what a curse that man is... and to think, I came within a hair of voting for him.

jimbo said:

Using other people's money.

SS was sold as a bought and paid for retirement program. If the system is to have any credibility, the contract, real or implied, should be adhered to. What you are proposing is to remove benefits from those who paid the most, but still keep the money, and still keep collecting it. That's just another tax, and in many cases a tax on the middle class wage earner.

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That is already being done (to a large extent) by how the federal income tax code now treats 'excess' Social Security retirement income.

Here's how it works: If you file as an individual and your combined income — by this, Social Security means adjusted gross income and nontaxable interest plus one-half of your Social Security benefits — is below $25,000, your benefits won't be taxed at all. If income is between $25,000 and $34,000, up to 50 percent of your benefits may be subject to tax. For income of more than $34,000, up to 85 percent of your benefits may be considered taxable income.

If you and your spouse file a joint return with a combined income below $32,000, your benefits are out of reach. For income between $32,000 and $44,000, up to 50 percent of benefits may be taxable, and up to 85 percent if combined income is more than $44,000.

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https://www.aarp.org/work/social-security/info-2014/social-security-benefit-taxes.html

noonereal said:

Bullshi!.

If you did reading (not from a wingnut site) you known damned well what I posted is fact.

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Actually I read through some available studies of American millionaires, as well as a host of material on poverty in the U.S.

Trump and his alternative truth nonsense is spreading like wildfire

what a curse that man is... and to think, I came within a hair of voting for him.

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I'm glad that I never came that close. As you say, he's a constant liar. That, however, has nothing to do with that fact that - as far as I am aware - the available social science does not necessarily back up what you are claiming about success in America.

cpwill said:

Actually I read through some available studies of American millionaires, as well as a host of material on poverty in the U.S.



I'm glad that I never came that close. As you say, he's a constant liar. That, however, has nothing to do with that fact that - as far as I am aware - the available social science does not necessarily back up what you are claiming about success in America.

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I have read some of your other posts and wish to apologize for being so dismissive of you.

Most times when someone asks for a link to verify a fact they are simply making busy work for the poster to stifle them. I no longer think that was true of your request.

As with any study there can appear to be contradictions. This leads to an endless back and forth.

If you dispute what I wrote and your intellectual curiosity is strong enough, please do some searches.

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I am a republican who saw early that stupid was gaining in the GOP and would not vote for Bush JR. Then I was all set to vote McCain and BAM! More stupid, Palin. I was very upset with McCain for this.

So when Trump came around I thought we had a centrist (which is what he was prior to his campaign) running against business as usual. I was open to voteing for him but in teh end he went even more crazy when it was expected he would grow up. The court going backwards made me cast a vote against him.

I think there are lots of republicans with a party now.

noonereal said:

You don't then understand how Social Security works.






This is total rubbish.

Fact:

The #1 indicator of future wealth of a child at birth is the parents socioeconomic standing at birth.

#2 most frequent determiner of financial success, right time, right place. (luck)

Let's face it, we are literally brainwashed as children into believing hard work is key to success. Sadly it's just not true.

In fact the hardest job I ever had found me exempt from minimum wage and over time laws while the easiest job I ever had put me in the top 2%.

I found this to be common throughout my life.

Click to expand...

But hold on. You went from a below minimum wage job without overtime pay to a top 2% job . Probably just luck or an accident of birth.

And they said it couldn't be done.

noonereal said:

I have read some of your other posts and wish to apologize for being so dismissive of you.

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No worries. Thanks for doing the background work - I think that willingness is pretty rare here on the instant-reaction-high-tribalism-internet.

Most times when someone asks for a link to verify a fact they are simply making busy work for the poster to stifle them. I no longer think that was true of your request.

As with any study there can appear to be contradictions. This leads to an endless back and forth.

If you dispute what I wrote and your intellectual curiosity is strong enough, please do some searches.

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Hm. Well, I can go through and bring up some material, if you like. Generally, though:

1. Most American Millionaires are first-generation. Most American Billionaires are first-generation.

2. The strongest indicator of whether or not a child will do well in live isn't if they are born to the wealthy (though the wealthy can advantage their children in many ways), but rather if they were born to and are raised in a home with two married parents, who read to the child.

3. Those who graduate high school, work full time, don't have kids outside of marriage, and stay married, tend to end up well enough off. Those who don't, tend to suffer economically for it.

4. Increasingly, America is bifurcating not along racial, but along class-lines made up of the people who tend to do that list of things, and the people who tend to not.


I've been a basic financial counselor for, at this point, a couple of hundred enlisted Marines and their families, and more than a few regular civilian types. I've watched what it takes for middle or low-income people to win, and it's an option available to pretty much all of them :shrug:

I am a republican who saw early that stupid was gaining in the GOP and would not vote for Bush JR. Then I was all set to vote McCain and BAM! More stupid, Palin. I was very upset with McCain for this.

So when Trump came around I thought we had a centrist (which is what he was prior to his campaign) running against business as usual. I was open to voteing for him but in teh end he went even more crazy when it was expected he would grow up. The court going backwards made me cast a vote against him.

I think there are lots of republicans with a party now.

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I don't know if we are really even "Republicans" any more. I'd say I'm a conservative, and if a Republican wants to run on the overlap between "Sane" and "Conservative", well, they can have my support. Up until that point... :shrug: I don't vote for crazy to have power.

cpwill; great post.

Over 30+ years teaching high school, college and adult education bears out exactly how you describe what makes people successful. Points 1-4 are right on the money; literally. I saw this day in and day out. Some posters here believe success is mostly luck. Funny how good habits, good manners, getting a good education, and being raised in a functional household leads to "luck" in more ways than one.

cpwill said:

1. Most American Millionaires are first-generation. Most American Billionaires are first-generation.

2. The strongest indicator of whether or not a child will do well in live isn't if they are born to the wealthy (though the wealthy can advantage their children in many ways), but rather if they were born to and are raised in a home with two married parents, who read to the child.

3. Those who graduate high school, work full time, don't have kids outside of marriage, and stay married, tend to end up well enough off. Those who don't, tend to suffer economically for it.

4. Increasingly, America is bifurcating not along racial, but along class-lines made up of the people who tend to do that list of things, and the people who tend to not.


.

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1 My statement was that biggest predictor of economic success at birth is the parents socioeconomic standing. That most new millionaires are made by chance does not speak to this.

2. I have read this also. For the first time today by chance. I'd have not had the time to see who did this study. that can always tell as much as the results.

3. Depends on the definition of well off and, again, does not dispute anything I said.

4. Yes, some groups of people adapt to our capitalistic system better than others. I have read no study but my empirical learning would suggest this is a combination of environmental/cultural and born abilities. Some who would be very successful in a hunter gatherer economy are unable to enjoy even modest success in our system. (This is another reason I think we owe all members of our tribe the basics with no work demands.)

cpwill said:

I don't know if we are really even "Republicans" any more. I'd say I'm a conservative, and if a Republican wants to run on the overlap between "Sane" and "Conservative", well, they can have my support. Up until that point... :shrug: I don't vote for crazy to have power.

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Indeed, the republican party is gone. Trumpets seized the banner.

I was a libertarian out of college. As a strong, young, aggressive male I could not understand the impediments so many face. I thought the 40 hour work week ridiculous. Man should work a minimum of 56 hours. You voted to take my money. The whole right wing thing. Not understanding at all the interdependence, the advantages some held, the handicaps others suffered with.

After this election I told my friends, Trump won so we will have policies that lean right. I did not prefer most but I was resolved and respectful of the process. I was all about moving forward.

Now I say, it's still OK to be a republican or a conservative or a libertarian.... it was OK to have voted for Trump.
It is not OK to support him now.

I am fiscally conservative. For example I am fine with Trump freezing non military pay to federal workers. It's long overdo. I cannot support why he did it. As a political vendetta. I am against public unions. They should not be allowed. I am very pro private unions.

I am most definitely socially liberal. Why is gay anything even talked about? (for example) I get crap from both sides because I wont follow.

jimbo said:

But hold on. You went from a below minimum wage job without overtime pay to a top 2% job . Probably just luck or an accident of birth.

And they said it couldn't be done.

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How I did it?

I was BORN driven. I am competitive inside and out. But even with this I spent 20 years comfortable but not top 2%.

How did I break through? Chance.

I spent 15 of the 20 years I just spoke to knowing what I wanted to do. Guess what, I could not get there. Why? I knew no one in the business. Yes all my drive and success was not enough. It was not until I overheard a conversation and inserted myself in it that I got the opportunity.

did I work hard?? VERY. At everything I did.

Did it help, marginally. I was always successful but it was more my smarts than hard work.

My peer group, some making very good money were no more or less lazy or industrious than anyone one else. What they were was lucky.

Not a one but myself would admit it though.

people are amazing. They always pat themselves on the back and ignore truths, realities.

noonereal said:

i never called it welfare.

???????????????

why do you bring that up?

BTW it is not the money they WITHHELD, that was spent on your grandma. (I am proud of you, taking care of grandma)

The money you get is from your grandchildren, God love those generous former tots.

A great system IMHO. It is the role of the young and healthy of the tribe to provide for the less fortunate and old.

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If you draw money from the bank that you have on deposit that money is yours regardless of who put the last physical dollar in that you are now taking out. It does not matter what the government did with my social security deposits, when I draw it back out it is mine because they owe me that money by contract.