Who deserves the blame for a lack of civility?

Both sides share blame, but the GOP along with right wing media took it to another level when they spent 8 years calling the first black president a foreign born muslim with a fake birth certificate, who hated white people, was a terrorist sympathizer, socialist, communist, hated cops, etc. All of this built up hatred that the GOP and right wing media pushed resulted in their radical base voting for a race baiting birther opportunist like Donald Trump, who took all that hatred and made an entire campaign out of it, which resulted in him slaughtering 16 other GOP candidates in the primaries. All this happened despite Trump having ZERO political experience, and NO history of EVER supporting conservative policies or positions. Oh, and all this happened despite the GOP BEGGING their voters to NOT vote for Trump in the primaries. But it was too late, the seeds were already planted, and the environment the GOP created is what gave birth to the rise of Trump.

Oh, and as recently as 2013 (after he was already a well known birther), Trump was praising Hillary Clinton. But did that matter to the average GOP voter? Nope, they liked what Trump was telling them in 2015/2016. His entire past became irrelevant to them. And this is why he could say or do whatever he wants, and 85%-90% of the GOP base would support him no matter what.

There's a missing option: The 'News' media.

Their continued sensationalism driven reporting has given the ever greater incivility all the more attention, seemingly a challenge as to 'who can top this?', and sure enough along comes someone who does, rise, lather, repeat.

Does give cause for one to wonder when the temperature in the political rhetoric and political discussion is going to bleed down, and if it'll bleed down before the 'boiler' explodes.

eohrnberger said:

There's a missing option: The 'News' media.

Their continued sensationalism driven reporting has given the ever greater incivility all the more attention, seemingly a challenge as to 'who can top this?', and sure enough along comes someone who does, rise, lather, repeat.

Does give cause for one to wonder when the temperature in the political rhetoric and political discussion is going to bleed down, and if it'll bleed down before the 'boiler' explodes.

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That's the meat of the reason I didn't select any poll choice, but rather addressed it in comments. IMO, it's not just the "news" media, but the media landscape and those in it and running it. They profit from the division.

<alt>doxygen said:

That's the meat of the reason I didn't select any poll choice, but rather addressed it in comments. IMO, it's not just the "news" media, but the media landscape and those in it and running it. They profit from the division.

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True. And that raises an interesting question to apply to the increasing incivility as well, namely 'Cui bono', "to whom is it a benefit?"

We already know that the media landscape benefits.

Anyone else?

Perhaps the political elite, in that while the electorate is busy insulting each other and fauxraging, they don't have the attention or time left to be concerned about what the political elite are up to?

But then, that could also be applied to the Trump presidency as a whole, in that he most certainly isn't a political elite, and the political elite would much rather have their reigns on power without impediments.

One might also note that the political elite, of which the Clintons most certainly belong, isn't being held accountable for their malfeasance, having arranged a two tiered justice system that favors them, as has been aptly demonstrated.

eohrnberger said:

True. And that raises an interesting question to apply to the increasing incivility as well, namely 'Cui bono', "to whom is it a benefit?"

We already know that the media landscape benefits.

Anyone else?

Perhaps the political elite, in that while the electorate is busy insulting each other and fauxraging, they don't have the attention or time left to be concerned about what the political elite are up to?

But then, that could also be applied to the Trump presidency as a whole, in that he most certainly isn't a political elite, and the political elite would much rather have their reigns on power without impediments.

One might also note that the political elite, of which the Clintons most certainly belong, isn't being held accountable for their malfeasance, having arranged a two tiered justice system that favors them, as has been aptly demonstrated.

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Cui Bono? As always - follow the money.

I'm afraid we are getting close to a place where congress-critters are more or less openly sponsored and thus owned. After Citizens United it seems like the next step would be to remove the limits on individual donations. That would be game over.

I know the Clintons are political elite, but I don't see Trump as much different. Take away the obnoxiousness and he's just rubber-stamping the corporate GOP wish list of tax cuts for the economic elites, military spending on steroids, blind deregulation and regressive judicial appointments. I don't think a president Pence would have done anything different, except perhaps the trade war stuff.

I didn't trust or support Trump, but I really hoped he would be more independent and "populist" than he turned out to be.

<alt>doxygen said:

Cui Bono? As always - follow the money.

I'm afraid we are getting close to a place where congress-critters are more or less openly sponsored and thus owned. After Citizens United it seems like the next step would be to remove the limits on individual donations. That would be game over.

I know the Clintons are political elite, but I don't see Trump as much different. Take away the obnoxiousness and he's just rubber-stamping the corporate GOP wish list of tax cuts for the economic elites, military spending on steroids, blind deregulation and regressive judicial appointments. I don't think a president Pence would have done anything different, except perhaps the trade war stuff.

I didn't trust or support Trump, but I really hoped he would be more independent and "populist" than he turned out to be.

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Odd that you "I don't see Trump as much different."

It is the political elite, their acolytes in the federal bureaucracy, and complicit 'news' media, that are staging what amounts to nearly an open revolt. Surely you've seen this?

"tax cuts for the economic elites" - disputable, considering how many of other economic levels are getting tax relief.
"military spending on steroids" - yes, the military have received a raise after how many years exactly?
"regressive judicial appointments" - constitutional textualists are regressive how, exactly?

And, yet, they still get what they want, in spite of who's in the Oval Office. That should tell everyone something.

Cui Bono?

The political elites, as I pointed out in my earlier post.

Wouldn't be so bad if they added as much value as they gained, but really, I'm not seeing them adding any, and not nearly, as much value as they are gaining in all this.

But then, serfdom has been with the human race for thousands of years too.

I think he might be about 'as independent and "populist"' as he thinks he can get away with.

MrWonka said:

Republicans want to bitch and moan about civility all of a sudden. Never mind the reality that for eight years all they ever did to President Obama was flip him the bird. Every time Republicans went low President Obama tried to get high, and how was he thanked? He was replaced by a wack job that ran around the country spreading lies about Obama being a secret Muslim born in Kenya.

So tell me who do you think is the most to blame for the breakdown in civility we see in Washington?

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Impartial, objective Lefty is impartial and objective.

MrWonka said:

Republicans want to bitch and moan about civility all of a sudden. Never mind the reality that for eight years all they ever did to President Obama was flip him the bird. Every time Republicans went low President Obama tried to get high, and how was he thanked? He was replaced by a wack job that ran around the country spreading lies about Obama being a secret Muslim born in Kenya.

So tell me who do you think is the most to blame for the breakdown in civility we see in Washington?

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Irony, consider the source of this thread. LOL, seriously????

nota bene said:

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" (Gandhi).

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An eye for an eye is about punishing someone after their crimes have been identified and stopped. This quote is about making sure you serve true justice and not just seek revenge. Republican crimes are still being committed, and there is nobody left to stop them but us. President Obama frequently said that when Republicans go low, we should go high assuming the people would judge us favorably for taking the moral high ground. The sad reality though is that the underhanded bull**** that Republicans pulled was not only not punished, but was in fact rewarded.

This very thread has demonstrated that despite the clear and obvious attempts by Democrats to be better and to take the moral high road when Republicans didn't the moderates refuse to give Democrats credit for it. They still blame both parties equally no matter how unscrupulous and dishonest Republicans have behaved.

I'm sorry, but there is a reason for the saying that nice guys finish last. Insecure people don't punish bad behavior the way they should. In fact, they often times reward evil means so long as they lead to desired ends. They see in Trump a man who's willing to do whatever it takes to win for them. That includes lying, cheating, stealing and bullying. As long as he's on their side they simply don't care. Democrats can't afford to keep being nice and hoping voters will reward them for it. They need to start kicking ass and taking names and show voters they mean business.

NoC_T said:

Impartial, objective Lefty is impartial and objective.

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I'm a white man from small-town Christian conservative America. If anything I started out life as a conservative. In 2000 I wanted to vote for John McCain, and as recently as 2006 I would have called myself a strict Libertarian. There is not one single solitary thing about me that would make me personally biased towards Democrats. In fact, one could argue that Republican policies are more of a direct benefit to me than Democrats. It is only because I have the mental capacity to grasp the long game and the big picture objectively that makes me support Democrats.

Supporting one side of an argument over another does not make you biased. Supporting one side of an argument over another for reasons other than that it makes more sense is what makes you biased. I am a tall white straight man from rural America. I own a gun, I make just under six figures, and I'm young enough and healthy enough that I can afford my own health insurance. But unlike most ****ty white men like me, I can admit the truth, that without white male privilege, and without help from the government to get a better education I wouldn't be where I am today.

MrWonka said:

An eye for an eye is about punishing someone after their crimes have been identified and stopped. This quote is about making sure you serve true justice and not just seek revenge. Republican crimes are still being committed, and there is nobody left to stop them but us. President Obama frequently said that when Republicans go low, we should go high assuming the people would judge us favorably for taking the moral high ground. The sad reality though is that the underhanded bull**** that Republicans pulled was not only not punished, but was in fact rewarded.

This very thread has demonstrated that despite the clear and obvious attempts by Democrats to be better and to take the moral high road when Republicans didn't the moderates refuse to give Democrats credit for it. They still blame both parties equally no matter how unscrupulous and dishonest Republicans have behaved.

I'm sorry, but there is a reason for the saying that nice guys finish last. Insecure people don't punish bad behavior the way they should. In fact, they often times reward evil means so long as they lead to desired ends. They see in Trump a man who's willing to do whatever it takes to win for them. That includes lying, cheating, stealing and bullying. As long as he's on their side they simply don't care. Democrats can't afford to keep being nice and hoping voters will reward them for it. They need to start kicking ass and taking names and show voters they mean business.

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Wow. Democrats need to stop being nice. They need to kick ass. You don't even see that a view such as this is part of the problem.

MrWonka said:

I'm a white man from small-town Christian conservative America. If anything I started out life as a conservative. In 2000 I wanted to vote for John McCain, and as recently as 2006 I would have called myself a strict Libertarian. There is not one single solitary thing about me that would make me personally biased towards Democrats. In fact, one could argue that Republican policies are more of a direct benefit to me than Democrats. It is only because I have the mental capacity to grasp the long game and the big picture objectively that makes me support Democrats.

Supporting one side of an argument over another does not make you biased. Supporting one side of an argument over another for reasons other than that it makes more sense is what makes you biased. I am a tall white straight man from rural America. I own a gun, I make just under six figures, and I'm young enough and healthy enough that I can afford my own health insurance. But unlike most ****ty white men like me, I can admit the truth, that without white male privilege, and without help from the government to get a better education I wouldn't be where I am today.

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Actually it does, since what 'makes sense' here defines your personal bias. This isn't Mathematics.

Btw, what's with the white guilt BS? Don't be such a betacuck. You have nothing to apologise for. And I consider education a right, not a privilege.

NoC_T said:

Actually, it does, since what 'makes sense' here defines your personal bias.

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Wrong. You see a bias would indicate something that directly benefits me to such a high degree that I would ignore all the ways it was harmful to someone else. For example, if you're a millionaire or a billionaire you generally receive huge tax cuts when Republicans are in office. These are things that benefit you directly, but really don't benefit an average American. I, on the other hand, am a fairly average American. In fact, when you look at the demographics I am a part of and the part of the country I come from with my family history if I have any bias at all it should lead me to side with Republicans more than big city liberals.

I am a man, I am white, I am straight, I am fairly well off financially, I can afford my own health care, I'm not part of a union, I was raised in small-town flyover country in a Christian conservative family, I own a gun...

Based on these facts, demographic information from exit polling would indicate that I have an incredibly high likelihood of supporting Donald Trump. Yet he disgusts me more than any politician in history. This is because despite the direct benefits that I might personally receive from his policies(things like Tax cuts) I can see the indirect and unintended consequences of his policies are actually bad for someone like me and for most of the country.

NoC_T said:

This isn't Mathematics.

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Yes, actually it is in many cases. Logic can, in fact, be used to derive intelligent choices.

NoC_T said:

Btw, what's with the white guilt BS? Don't be such a betacuck. You have nothing to apologise for.

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Thank you for proving my point. It is you who are incredibly biased and must attempt to insult me for not wanting to help you achieve white supremacy. You see unlike you I am a strong, intelligent, and very successful person. I don't need to be given any further advantages just for being a white man. I can succeed without any further assistance from the government and realize that by making sure everyone else has a fair shot that will ultimately benefit me.

You see, I want a fair game. I want everyone to have the same opportunity that I have because I know that I will have no problems winning a fair game, and I will be able to appreciate my success more knowing that I was given no additional help. You, on the other hand, can't win the game unless you stack the deck in your favor. You see me not wanting you to stack the deck in favor of white men as a weakness, but in fact, it is a strength. You seem to think that we as white men should leverage our ancestor's past success in order to guarantee our own future success. You think that me being white and male should make me a part of your team that I should want to help ensure the success of.

But I don't see the divisions you value. I don't see my gender or my skin color as making me part of a team. I am not on any one's team, and it is you who are weak and pathetic for needing one.

nota bene said:

Wow. Democrats need to stop being nice. They need to kick ass. You don't even see that a view such as this is part of the problem.

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It doesn't matter what I see as the problem. What matters is what average voters see as the problem. They seem to want someone different. They want someone who will kick ass and say what's on his mind even if what is on his mind is deluded and idiotic. They didn't vote for an uniter they voted for a divider. Trump choose a strategy of divide and conquer, and the American voter showed that they were willing to let it work. What we must do is the same thing, but we must choose a bigger and better division and use it to crush the **** heads who put Trump in power. Once they again a fringe powerless group the rest of the country can unite behind that common enemy.

That is the sad reality is that the single most reliable way to unite groups of people is to have them fight a common enemy. We will make Trump and his most disgusting supporters that enemy.

MrWonka said:

It doesn't matter what I see as the problem. What matters is what average voters see as the problem. They seem to want someone different. They want someone who will kick ass and say what's on his mind even if what is on his mind is deluded and idiotic. They didn't vote for an uniter they voted for a divider. Trump choose a strategy of divide and conquer, and the American voter showed that they were willing to let it work. What we must do is the same thing, but we must choose a bigger and better division and use it to crush the **** heads who put Trump in power. Once they again a fringe powerless group the rest of the country can unite behind that common enemy.

That is the sad reality is that the single most reliable way to unite groups of people is to have them fight a common enemy. We will make Trump and his most disgusting supporters that enemy.

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You've already proven the point, Mr. Wonka. No need to go on; I get the ass-kicking and head-crushing. :roll:

MrWonka said:

Wrong. You see a bias would indicate something that directly benefits me to such a high degree that I would ignore all the ways it was harmful to someone else. For example, if you're a millionaire or a billionaire you generally receive huge tax cuts when Republicans are in office. These are things that benefit you directly, but really don't benefit an average American. I, on the other hand, am a fairly average American. In fact, when you look at the demographics I am a part of and the part of the country I come from with my family history if I have any bias at all it should lead me to side with Republicans more than big city liberals.

I am a man, I am white, I am straight, I am fairly well off financially, I can afford my own health care, I'm not part of a union, I was raised in small-town flyover country in a Christian conservative family, I own a gun...

Based on these facts, demographic information from exit polling would indicate that I have an incredibly high likelihood of supporting Donald Trump. Yet he disgusts me more than any politician in history. This is because despite the direct benefits that I might personally receive from his policies(things like Tax cuts) I can see the indirect and unintended consequences of his policies are actually bad for someone like me and for most of the country.

Yes, actually it is in many cases. Logic can, in fact, be used to derive intelligent choices.

Thank you for proving my point. It is you who are incredibly biased and must attempt to insult me for not wanting to help you achieve white supremacy. You see unlike you I am a strong, intelligent, and very successful person. I don't need to be given any further advantages just for being a white man. I can succeed without any further assistance from the government and realize that by making sure everyone else has a fair shot that will ultimately benefit me.

You see, I want a fair game. I want everyone to have the same opportunity that I have because I know that I will have no problems winning a fair game, and I will be able to appreciate my success more knowing that I was given no additional help. You, on the other hand, can't win the game unless you stack the deck in your favor. You see me not wanting you to stack the deck in favor of white men as a weakness, but in fact, it is a strength. You seem to think that we as white men should leverage our ancestor's past success in order to guarantee our own future success. You think that me being white and male should make me a part of your team that I should want to help ensure the success of.

But I don't see the divisions you value. I don't see my gender or my skin color as making me part of a team. I am not on any one's team, and it is you who are weak and pathetic for needing one.

Click to expand...

Bias necessitates merely emphasis and intention, irrespective of personal benefit. One might, for example, pursue a course of action detrimental to oneself; on such a basis rests altruism and self-sacrifice. As the issue is blame, there's no closed system that warrants a mathematical analogy. Morality being whimsical, that way. lulz

The remainder of your screed is no more than accustomed Leftist hysteria, replete with all manner of assumption and conditioned response.

Because on the Left, Emotion/Volume > Reason/Logic. You would, as per your script, level a charge of 'white supremacism'. Your indoctrination permits nothing else. Were Leftists capable of critical thought (as opposed to hair trigger emotionality), you might have asked my opinion. Having done so, I could have assured you that I'm keenly aware that ethnicity lends no congenital advantage.

Eight long years of haranguing the black alien in the White House with a dash of outside "encouragement" from the Russians, with a smidge from Netanyahu puts the blame firmly at the Republicans' door.

NoC_T said:

Bias necessitates merely emphasis and intention, irrespective of personal benefit. One might, for example, pursue a course of action detrimental to oneself; on such a basis rests altruism and self-sacrifice.

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HAHAHAHA!!!! So basically you just have no clue what bias actually is. Wanting to be a good person and do the right thing for the whole of society is not a bias. That's what you're supposed to want. Altruism and self-sacrifice are by definition the opposite of bias unless you're just faking them to receive some type of honor or reward. Kind of like soldiers who claim they fight for freedom, then bitch and moan because you're not honoring them. Donating to Charity for the purposes of tax cuts and civic awards or to try and curry favor in order to be compensated might qualify, but you see it is generally conservatives who donate more money to charity.

Liberals, on the other hand, want to ensure that a basic quality of life and opportunity are guaranteed and paid for by taxes. That way nobody can claim credit for it, or try to use it to prop themselves up. We don't choose to pay taxes they are taken automatically and so we can't take credit for it as individuals only as a society. Paying your taxes without bitching about it is likely the single most altruistic thing a person can do. Letting by letting the society as a whole decide what investments to make eliminates the possibility that selfish individuals could use the money only for what they desire without convincing the group as a whole it's what the right thing to do.

NoC_T said:

Because on the Left, Emotion/Volume > Reason/Logic.

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HAHAHAHA!!! Sorry chief, but it is your emotion and your fear that makes you want to look out for your own self-interest first. It is those of us without fear who can make the rational choice that benefits us all.

NoC_T said:

I'm keenly aware that ethnicity lends no congenital advantage.

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Your words are meaningless, your actions speak volumes. You side with the Klan, with Nazis, with those who would abuse innocent children for the trivial "crimes" of their parents, and with those who would deny refuge to human beings in desperate need because they are of Arab or Latino descent. You vote for a man who ran around this country spreading lies about our first African American president claiming he was a secret Muslim born in Kenya.

You don't get to tell me you're not a racist, you have to prove it with your actions, and your actions tell us exactly what you are even if your own cognitive dissonance won't allow you to admit it.

MrWonka said:

HAHAHAHA!!!!

HAHAHAHA!!!

Your words are meaningless, your actions speak volumes. You side with the Klan, with Nazis, with those who would abuse innocent children for the trivial "crimes" of their parents, and with those who would deny refuge to human beings in desperate need because they are of Arab or Latino descent. You vote for a man who ran around this country spreading lies about our first African American president claiming he was a secret Muslim born in Kenya.

You don't get to tell me you're not a racist, you have to prove it with your actions, and your actions tell us exactly what you are even if your own cognitive dissonance won't allow you to admit it.

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Again, you're struggling with definitions, while drawing from overarching assumptions without foundation. You're also becoming quite emotional.

As to 'siding with the Klan and Nazis' etc, I'm gonna gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've been drinking. And whatever 'actions' I see fit to undertake, I'm reasonably certain they couldn't translate so very well online.

Further, I 'get to tell you' pretty much whatever I please, since you've no option of preventing me from doing so.

NoC_T said:

Further, I 'get to tell you' pretty much whatever I please, since you've no option of preventing me from doing so.

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Yeah, you can keep saying it all you want to, but if you actually expect someone to believe you then you need to stop voting for Presidents that make the Nazis jump for joy.

MrWonka said:

Yeah, you can keep saying it all you want to, but if you actually expect someone to believe you then you need to stop voting for Presidents that make the Nazis jump for joy.

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As I'm not American, I couldn't vote for him. But I would have.

Don't forget to check under your bed tonight for Nazis.

My answer is American citizens who forbear the polarizing comportment and rhetoric are to blame. Were voters unrelenting and consistent in their electoral and economic disapprobation for the incivility we've, of late, observed and heard, the incivil words and deeds would disappear in a NY minute. Absent material consequences for it, that kind of behavior isn't going anywhere.

MrWonka said:

Not at all. Lazy intellectuals who just want pretend the problem is equally on both sides are the single biggest problem we have. They bitch about ideologues and partisanship and in reality, they're the worst ideologues of all. They're just angry and spiteful about the fact that their ideology doesn't have its own Major party and so they want to attack both because they simply cannot admit the truth.

I know the attitude all too well. It used to be me. Back I I was younger I hated the idea of only two political parties. As recently as 2006 I would have called myself a Libertarian. I may not love every single idea that Democrats have, but I'm an honest and informed person and I can say with 100% certainty that the problems in this country are entirely the fault of Republicans. I will not allow perfection to be the enemy of the good. I will not allow imperfections and trivial disagreements to take my eye off the ball and stay focused on the real threat. This administration is the single most dishonest and most corrupt administration in the history of the United States, and it's not even close. There's nothing that even approaches it. Yet here we sit with 90% of Republicans still throwing their support behind a man who just denied the deaths of almost 3000 people as if that's just fine. As if somehow Hillary Clinton being accused of crimes without proof by Republicans makes the two parties equal.

President Obama inherited an Economy that was hemorrhaging 800,000 jobs per month not to mention two prolonged wars one of which we should have never been fighting at all. Within 6 months he had turned the economy around and had us growing jobs for over 90 consecutive months, and now a bunch of worthless lying white men is trying to take credit for his good work and destroy every good thing our first African American President did. The attacks on Obama were blatantly racist and had no rational basis under the circumstances. Trump, on the other hand, could be and should already be charged with close to 10 different counts of obstruction of justice based on information we have in the public domain alone yet Republicans are ignoring it and acting like it's fine.

The entire Republican party is at this point living in an alternate reality of their own making. If you think that Democrats and Republicans are equally bad at this point, then there is something wrong with you as well.

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With this kind of attitude then why post the poll in the first place? You obviously didn't care about the results and were going to dismiss them no matter what unless it was majority agreement with you.

I read a lot of posts in this thread that pointed out all the stupidity that Republicans did while Obama was in office, all while claiming that Democrats didn't do anything near as bad. Practically angels. :roll:

What a load of horse pucky.

Don't any of you remember all the times that Democrats dismissed those that disagreed with Obama's policies as "racist" or "nazi's"? Remember Obama's comment about clinging to guns and religion? Remember what the IRS did to help Obama? How anything that was bad that happened to blacks was the fault of ole whitey? EX: Michael Brown who was the poster boy for a lie "Hands up Don't Shoot".

Democrats were no better than Republicans.

MrWonka said:

Republicans want to bitch and moan about civility all of a sudden. Never mind the reality that for eight years all they ever did to President Obama was flip him the bird. Every time Republicans went low President Obama tried to get high, and how was he thanked? He was replaced by a wack job that ran around the country spreading lies about Obama being a secret Muslim born in Kenya.

So tell me who do you think is the most to blame for the breakdown in civility we see in Washington?

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Placing blame is the first mistake.

Always blame yourself before others.