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Another Question For Lefties

Lefties: Would You Take The Trade Offered In The OP?


  • Total voters
    15
I'm probably going to be in the minority here, but absolutely not. It's worth noting that I'm not part of the 'resistance' and I'm viciously anti-establishment. I despise the president, but I feel like he's a symptom of a much larger problem. As crazy and unhinged as he seems to be to those of us on the left, there was a time that we all couldn't fathom a more incompetent, more disastrous president than George W. Bush.

The fact that no party has been able to hold the White House for more than one or two terms in decades shouldn't be taken for granted. It's a sign that Americans trust neither of the parties, and I don't believe they are wrong to feel that way. We can't agree on who's exactly to blame, or the specifics of what's wrong, but in a country where we grow up being taught to be prideful of our democratic process, hardly anyone actually participates in it. I strongly believe that the public is weary and lacks faith in politics and our politicians, and that it actually doesn't have to be that way.

We progressives (specifically the Berniecrats. I feel that I need to specify, because words like 'progressive' and 'liberal' seem to shift meaning depending on the person using those terms) generally look at the last few decades with a great deal of disdain for third-way Democrats, or neoliberalism. While conservatives may view things as becoming too liberal, particularly from a social front (SJWs, political correctness, anti-free-speech campuses), we see our own party as having become increasingly right-wing in terms of economic policy, to the point where both parties having the same sponsors has become a sad running joke. The Democrats really don't stand for anything. They pay lip service to identity politics while bending to will of Wall St.

My point? If we hadn't elected Trump during the last election cycle, we would have almost certainly elected him in the next, or someone worse. I know that's not a popular opinion, but only because a lack of imagination, and I've learned not to test Murphy's law. Suppose we oust Trump in favor of another lackluster Dem that spends the next eight years doing nothing to instill confidence in leftist policies; people on the left feel that he's far too authoritarian, and I share those sentiments, but what happens when we elect someone that is even more authoritarian, or possibly a more competent authoritarian? What if Trump is simply the prototype of what's to come if we don't do something to change the course of public discourse?

We could oust Trump, and even replace him with an actual progressive that my ilk would approve of, but I wouldn't stack Congress with Republicans in order to accomplish this. That stands to effectively neuter the new administration, and mediocrity simply won't do. We need out of this vicious cycle, more than anything else. I feel like the only way to do that is through another FDR, and through decisive, real change.

But, hey, if I'm wrong about the viability of my economic stance, my whole ideal will completely backfire and end up destroying my movement in the same manner that hoped/hope that Trump would mark the end of the Republican party as we know it, so there's that.

So was that par for the course, or a bit off the rails from what you expected?

I agree with much of that, but let's take Obama's first two years. The House passed all kinds of stuff that would be considered progressive but was DOA in the Senate because Democrats had 60 votes for only a few months, and having only 60 votes meant that the left most set of policies possible was where the 58th and 59th and 60th most conservative Democratic Senators sat on the ideological spectrum.

Point is for all but a few months for all of Obama's 8 years, might as well have had a Republican senate except for a few nominations, and we saw the Democrats had to blow up the filibuster on judicial nominees to get ANY approved at the end that weren't republican nominees in judicial philosophy.

So, yeah, we need another FDR, but more than that we need the majorities that FDR had, which was roughly 2/3 of the House and Senate in Democratic hands, and to do that he aligned with openly racist southern Democrats. If we're going to see those kinds of majorities again, we'll have a lot of "corporate" democrats in Congress, people that aren't ideologically close to Berniecrats. That's why the in-fighting among the 'left' is so frustrating. The strategy is pretty simple. Vote for the most progressive candidate in the primaries, and show up in huge numbers in the general and vote for the Democrat who won the primary, period. That's what the GOP has done for decades now, and it's working - just look at the results. Congress, 2/3 of states, WH, USSC, all now dominated by the GOP.
 
Trump leaving right now would not see a Democrat in the White house as Pence would replace him and is a Republican.

That is reality.

Try to focus on it please.

Ummmmmmmmmm. You violated the rules of the OP.
 
NEGATIVE.I still believe in America.I will never make a deal with the devil,until or unless,I lose all faith in our great nation. For all of the good,the bad,and the ugly, the USA still rocks,and as the old adage goes "This too shall pass.' ( in reference to trump and the current make up of Congress.)

But but but, I thought Trump was the devil.
 
Excellent question. I'm assuming that you're trying to figure out how many of us are at least consistent, and how many of us take our hatred of the president to the point of irrationally compromising our goals and convictions.

I'm probably going to be in the minority here, but absolutely not. It's worth noting that I'm not part of the 'resistance' and I'm viciously anti-establishment. I despise the president, but I feel like he's a symptom of a much larger problem. As crazy and unhinged as he seems to be to those of us on the left, there was a time that we all couldn't fathom a more incompetent, more disastrous president than George W. Bush.

The fact that no party has been able to hold the White House for more than one or two terms in decades shouldn't be taken for granted. It's a sign that Americans trust neither of the parties, and I don't believe they are wrong to feel that way. We can't agree on who's exactly to blame, or the specifics of what's wrong, but in a country where we grow up being taught to be prideful of our democratic process, hardly anyone actually participates in it. I strongly believe that the public is weary and lacks faith in politics and our politicians, and that it actually doesn't have to be that way.

We progressives (specifically the Berniecrats. I feel that I need to specify, because words like 'progressive' and 'liberal' seem to shift meaning depending on the person using those terms) generally look at the last few decades with a great deal of disdain for third-way Democrats, or neoliberalism. While conservatives may view things as becoming too liberal, particularly from a social front (SJWs, political correctness, anti-free-speech campuses), we see our own party as having become increasingly right-wing in terms of economic policy, to the point where both parties having the same sponsors has become a sad running joke. The Democrats really don't stand for anything. They pay lip service to identity politics while bending to will of Wall St.

My point? If we hadn't elected Trump during the last election cycle, we would have almost certainly elected him in the next, or someone worse. I know that's not a popular opinion, but only because a lack of imagination, and I've learned not to test Murphy's law. Suppose we oust Trump in favor of another lackluster Dem that spends the next eight years doing nothing to instill confidence in leftist policies; people on the left feel that he's far too authoritarian, and I share those sentiments, but what happens when we elect someone that is even more authoritarian, or possibly a more competent authoritarian? What if Trump is simply the prototype of what's to come if we don't do something to change the course of public discourse?

We could oust Trump, and even replace him with an actual progressive that my ilk would approve of, but I wouldn't stack Congress with Republicans in order to accomplish this. That stands to effectively neuter the new administration, and mediocrity simply won't do. We need out of this vicious cycle, more than anything else. I feel like the only way to do that is through another FDR, and through decisive, real change.

But, hey, if I'm wrong about the viability of my economic stance, my whole ideal will completely backfire and end up destroying my movement in the same manner that hoped/hope that Trump would mark the end of the Republican party as we know it, so there's that.

So was that par for the course, or a bit off the rails from what you expected?

Thanks for your input.
 
I agree with much of that, but let's take Obama's first two years. The House passed all kinds of stuff that would be considered progressive but was DOA in the Senate because Democrats had 60 votes for only a few months, and having only 60 votes meant that the left most set of policies possible was where the 58th and 59th and 60th most conservative Democratic Senators sat on the ideological spectrum.

Point is for all but a few months for all of Obama's 8 years, might as well have had a Republican senate except for a few nominations, and we saw the Democrats had to blow up the filibuster on judicial nominees to get ANY approved at the end that weren't republican nominees in judicial philosophy.

So, yeah, we need another FDR, but more than that we need the majorities that FDR had, which was roughly 2/3 of the House and Senate in Democratic hands, and to do that he aligned with openly racist southern Democrats. If we're going to see those kinds of majorities again, we'll have a lot of "corporate" democrats in Congress, people that aren't ideologically close to Berniecrats. That's why the in-fighting among the 'left' is so frustrating. The strategy is pretty simple. Vote for the most progressive candidate in the primaries, and show up in huge numbers in the general and vote for the Democrat who won the primary, period. That's what the GOP has done for decades now, and it's working - just look at the results. Congress, 2/3 of states, WH, USSC, all now dominated by the GOP.

Just for fun can you give us a list of bills the GOP managed to block in Obama's first two years. By the way, the Senate rule for filibuster is 3/5's of the Senate - usually, but not always 60 Senators.
 
Just for fun can you give us a list of bills the GOP managed to block in Obama's first two years. By the way, the Senate rule for filibuster is 3/5's of the Senate - usually, but not always 60 Senators.

No, don't feel like being your research assistant this evening. So sorry.
 
No, don't feel like being your research assistant this evening. So sorry.
That's fine, we're used to your unsubstantiated claims.
 
That's fine, we're used to your unsubstantiated claims.

Okee dokee. Here's a starter for your research, though: https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...out-of-control-and-who-can-rein-it-in/266645/

The number of actual or threatened filibusters has increased dramatically since 1970, and now dominates the business of the Senate. In 2009, there were a record 67 filibusters in the first half of the 111th Congress -- double the number that occurred in the entire 20-year period between 1950 and 1969.

By the time the 111th Congress adjourned in December 2010, the number of filibusters had swelled to 137 for the entire two-year term of the 111th Congress. During the 111th Congress, over 400 bills that had been passed by the House of Representatives -- many with broad bipartisan support -- died in the Senate without ever having been debated or voted on because of the inability to obtain the 60 votes required by Rule XXII.
 
With 85 days until E-Day, Good for you to point out the 36 Governors up this year and almost every one of the 99 state legislative bodies, both of whom will write the 43 congressional remaps and the 99 state ones in 2021.

Not to mention that they will all be necessary to amend the constitution to remove these supreme court justices or just flat out hold a constitutional convention.
 
Not to mention that they will all be necessary to amend the constitution to remove these supreme court justices or just flat out hold a constitutional convention.

Seriously? It's time for you to wake up now. Seriously? Do you really actually believe that? My gosh. You have emptied the kool aid jug and begun sniffing the fumes.
 
While posting in some other threads this question popped into my mind. In order to get rid of Trump right now, would you lefties agree to let Republicans have majority control of both the House and the Senate (60 Republicans or more) for the next eight years in exchange for Trump being gone and being immediately replaced by a Democratic president for eight years? Please stick to the question as is, election cycles aren't taken into account so please don't lecture me about how political election cycles work.

Dream on.
Get ready to head for the exits because as of November, you're fired.
 
Seriously? It's time for you to wake up now. Seriously? Do you really actually believe that? My gosh. You have emptied the kool-aid jug and begun sniffing the fumes.

There are districts out there that Trump won by 20 points which Democrats are winning or getting close to winning in special elections. You're talking about a president who is insanely unpopular and the people who don't like him hate him beyond words, who already didn't win the special election as it is, and who is supported almost entirely by the elderly and hated by the youth. It is entirely possible that 2 million votes could swing Democrats way simply due to the fact that a million more Trump supporters will die in the next four years while a million more Democrats turn 18.

In 2008 Democrats won a super majority because of how disgusted Americans were with Bush. Granted a terrible economy helped make that happen, but if the economy turns south at all in the next year or two again Republicans are ****ed, and that's assuming Trump doesn't get impeached first.
 
Not to mention that they will all be necessary to amend the constitution to remove these supreme court justices or just flat out hold a constitutional convention.

That Constitutional Convention you mention ALREADY has Twelve States signed up by Tea Party Leader Jim DeMint, former President of the Heritage Foundation and former Senator from South Carolina, where he Sold Out his own Textile Industries on Free Trade.

As always, Democrats are asleep at the wheel on this one also. The Tea Party wishes to do away with the 16th and 17th amendments, along with whatever is left of the 14th amendment that this Roberts Supreme Court has gutted.

Always be ready for GOPs. Never underestimate McConnellism. Register Voters. Legally fight GOP Voter Suppression. Get on every Democratic Lawmaker to be Loud and Vigilant against 2018 Russian/GOP collusion.

We are most certainly in a serious Constitutional Crisis.
 
But but but, I thought Trump was the devil.

Well,if you think Trump is the devil..so be it...I'm non-religious so I would never refer to him as something I don't believe exists.
 
How exactly does a bill "with broad bipartisan support: not get enough votes to overcome a "filibuster"? At most it would take one or two Republican votes. Did the dems add some poison pill amendments?

From the article and my post:

During the 111th Congress, over 400 bills that had been passed by the House of Representatives -- many with broad bipartisan support -- died in the Senate without ever having been debated or voted on because of the inability to obtain the 60 votes required by Rule XXII.

They were passed by the HOUSE with broad bipartisan support in the HOUSE. The bills then died in the Senate for failure to get to 60 votes. Either you're very young or weren't paying attention at all during this period. Happened over and over.... So often it became boring and instead of noting the bill was filibustered, articles would read e.g. "The bill failed to pass on a vote of 58-42..." or whatever, as if 60 was the new majority, which it was.

McConnell before Obama was inaugurated established a Senate strategy to oppose anything and everything, and he kept at it for 8 years.
 
While posting in some other threads this question popped into my mind. In order to get rid of Trump right now, would you lefties agree to let Republicans have majority control of both the House and the Senate (60 Republicans or more) for the next eight years in exchange for Trump being gone and being immediately replaced by a Democratic president for eight years? Please stick to the question as is, election cycles aren't taken into account so please don't lecture me about how political election cycles work.

No.


.
 
I think most of the people who hate Trump above all are moderate. People on the left understand that the problem is republicans in general.

rotstar2_e0.gif
 
From the article and my post:



They were passed by the HOUSE with broad bipartisan support in the HOUSE. The bills then died in the Senate for failure to get to 60 votes. Either you're very young or weren't paying attention at all during this period. Happened over and over.... So often it became boring and instead of noting the bill was filibustered, articles would read e.g. "The bill failed to pass on a vote of 58-42..." or whatever, as if 60 was the new majority, which it was.
LOL, I'm definitely not young. So my next question would be how many were actually voted on and how many weren't even taken to the floor because the didn't have the votes. And, again, I have to wonder what dirty tricks Dirty Harry was pulling with amendments. And I'd like to see exactly what far left rag The Atlantic means by "BROAD bipartisan support".

JasperL said:
McConnell before Obama was inaugurated established a Senate strategy to oppose anything and everything, and he kept at it for 8 years.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that whine from you guys. Do you seriously claim ANY opposition leader would say different?
 
While posting in some other threads this question popped into my mind. In order to get rid of Trump right now, would you lefties agree to let Republicans have majority control of both the House and the Senate (60 Republicans or more) for the next eight years in exchange for Trump being gone and being immediately replaced by a Democratic president for eight years? Please stick to the question as is, election cycles aren't taken into account so please don't lecture me about how political election cycles work.

To clarify my earlier answer, the republicans in congress and the house are the reason why so much harm has been done, even beyond what democrats would do if they were in charge.

Both must go in their current iterations, never to be seen in power again.
 
LOL, I'm definitely not young. So my next question would be how many were actually voted on and how many weren't even taken to the floor because the didn't have the votes. And, again, I have to wonder what dirty tricks Dirty Harry was pulling with amendments. And I'd like to see exactly what far left rag The Atlantic means by "BROAD bipartisan support".

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that whine from you guys. Do you seriously claim ANY opposition leader would say different?

I wish i had a dollar for every time Trump mentioned McCain in his 3/4 trillion dollar military bill ( which I fully support as long as we don't buy 6000 dollar crappers ),or a dollar for every time Trump has visited any of our military serving abroad....Oh wait,that 'total' number would be a BIG FAT ZERO combined..Maybe I would better be served by getting a dollar for every time the guy who stated "I'll be too busy to be playing golf" gave me a dollar for every hour he has spent on his private golf courses at tax payer's expense...more often than not doubled since his own wife despises him so much she refuses to travel with him.
 
LOL, I'm definitely not young. So my next question would be how many were actually voted on and how many weren't even taken to the floor because the didn't have the votes. And, again, I have to wonder what dirty tricks Dirty Harry was pulling with amendments. And I'd like to see exactly what far left rag The Atlantic means by "BROAD bipartisan support".

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that whine from you guys. Do you seriously claim ANY opposition leader would say different?

The bolded is in the article. More broadly, you asked for the info but I can't imagine what your point is and it's WAY off the OP topic, so I'll leave this discussion here.
 
WTF? Speak for yourself, please.... And you're wrong BTW. :3oops:

You would trade a full Republican control of government and accept a Leftist lame duck POTUS for 8 years?

Man you guys need some therapy for your diseased minds.
 
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