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Were Police Justified in Shooting Black Man in Brooklyn?

Were Police Justified in Shooting Black Man in Brooklyn?

  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
truthatallcost said:
Black Lives Matter took the streets of Brooklyn Saturday, demanding 'justice' for the shooting death of 34 year old Saheed Vassell. This short video gives most of the pertinent facts of the incident.


Scene from Saturday's BLM protest.



I personally think BLM and their supporters have gone off the deep end. Vassell was reported to 911 dispatch by several black people in the area who said he stuck what appeared to be a gun in their face, in a threatening manner. Some callers reported it as an active shooter situation. Police arrived on scene fully expecting to come face to face with a man who was prepared to shoot them. The corny racial outrage on the behalf of BLM needs to stop now.
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I've made the recommendation before but nobody ever goes for it. There's a simple solution to all of this. The local social justice movements need to get organized and elect, from their own ranks, "Police Engagement Intermediaries" These PEIs would be assigned to every police patrol and would be the first to engage all suspects. The police would observe and intervene ONLY when the PEI gives their written approval. In such circumstances where the PEI grants the police powers of intervention the officer would ONLY be allowed to intervene to the extent that the written permission authorizes. Should the PEI be killed during the engagement then and only then can the cop proceed on their own discretion. Such a plan should reduce the possibility of a cop shooting an unarmed, mentally disabled person of color to doggone near zero.
 
Fledermaus said:
And the officers KNEW there was no gun when?
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All four officers fired. The Blue line protecting each other from lawsuits, not for protection. This has to stop. They don't care if there is a gun and that is why all four fire. It is to protect each other from bad judgement calls.
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DaveFagan said:
All four officers fired. The Blue line protecting each other from lawsuits, not for protection. This has to stop. They don't care if there is a gun and that is why all four fire. It is to protect each other from bad judgement calls.
/
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Hey, look...

A NON ANSWER....

WHEN did the officers KNOW he didn't have a gun?
 
Lutherf said:
I've made the recommendation before but nobody ever goes for it. There's a simple solution to all of this. The local social justice movements need to get organized and elect, from their own ranks, "Police Engagement Intermediaries" These PEIs would be assigned to every police patrol and would be the first to engage all suspects. The police would observe and intervene ONLY when the PEI gives their written approval. In such circumstances where the PEI grants the police powers of intervention the officer would ONLY be allowed to intervene to the extent that the written permission authorizes. Should the PEI be killed during the engagement then and only then can the cop proceed on their own discretion. Such a plan should reduce the possibility of a cop shooting an unarmed, mentally disabled person of color to doggone near zero.
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You jokester you. I almost thought you were serious there for a second.
 
Lutherf said:
I've made the recommendation before but nobody ever goes for it. There's a simple solution to all of this. The local social justice movements need to get organized and elect, from their own ranks, "Police Engagement Intermediaries" These PEIs would be assigned to every police patrol and would be the first to engage all suspects. The police would observe and intervene ONLY when the PEI gives their written approval. In such circumstances where the PEI grants the police powers of intervention the officer would ONLY be allowed to intervene to the extent that the written permission authorizes. Should the PEI be killed during the engagement then and only then can the cop proceed on their own discretion. Such a plan should reduce the possibility of a cop shooting an unarmed, mentally disabled person of color to doggone near zero.
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Perfect!
 
Phys251 said:
1. That's one study. Let's see if other studies say the same.
2. The article explicitly mentioned the greater likelihood of officer interaction with blacks and Hispanics, a critical point that you seem to be dismissing.
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It's not just ONE study, it's the only study that looked at the significance of the risk of black subjects being shot versus white subjects being shot. And, not just that, it was undertaken by a black professor who had been convinced by the media (much like you've been convinced) to believe a false narrative. Fryer was astonished by the results because he hadn't previously questioned the media narrative.

Yes, Fryer also found that minorities are often pushed around more than white subjects, or verbally engaged. True. That's not what you and I are discussing, however. We're talking about whether a black suspect is at a higher risk of being shot than a white suspect.

And, the answer is No.

The interesting thing is that discovering that should make you happy, yet you seem to want to cling to the false narrative. I suggest taking a close and honest look at why you might be wanting to do that.
 
Phys251 said:
Oh really? Let me guess, you believe that the per civilian-officer interaction shooting rates by officers are close to the same for blacks and whites, and thus, the overall shooting rates are higher. Right?
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HowardBThiname said:
It's not just ONE study, it's the only study that looked at the significance of the risk of black subjects being shot versus white subjects being shot. And, not just that, it was undertaken by a black professor who had been convinced by the media (much like you've been convinced) to believe a false narrative. Fryer was astonished by the results because he hadn't previously questioned the media narrative.

Yes, Fryer also found that minorities are often pushed around more than white subjects, or verbally engaged. True. That's not what you and I are discussing, however. We're talking about whether a black suspect is at a higher risk of being shot than a white suspect.

And, the answer is No.

The interesting thing is that discovering that should make you happy, yet you seem to want to cling to the false narrative. I suggest taking a close and honest look at why you might be wanting to do that.
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in 2017: police shot and killed: 457 white, 223 black
in 2016: police shot and killed: 466 white, 233 black
in 2015: police shot and killed: 497 white, 259 black

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/
 
holbritter said:
in 2017: police shot and killed: 457 white, 223 black
in 2016: police shot and killed: 466 white, 233 black
in 2015: police shot and killed: 497 white, 259 black

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/
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That's a fascinating interactive graph. I found myself clicking on a number of the squares.

What proponents of the false narrative that blacks are more at risk of being shot than whites say to dismiss that type of data is that blacks represent a smaller percentage of the population than the percentage being shot vs whites who are shot by officers.

That's where the Fryer study is different. It doesn't count just numbers, but rather compares the events, apples-to-apples, to identify the actual risk factor by race. It was the first, and, as far as I know, the only study to date, to tackle that. Fryer's study is peer-reviewed and published, which sets it apart from data collecting and statistics by numbers.

You can download a pdf here.

What the empirical study showed was that officers tend to push/shove/manhandle black suspects more than they do white suspects, but when it comes to actually shooting a suspect, blacks were slightly less likely to be shot than whites.

So, yeah, we still need to work on the pushing/shoving thing (not just for blacks, but for all suspects) but we need to stop kneeling during the Anthem as a protest of black men being shot by cops, and we need to stop the false narrative that comes with the "Hands up, Don't Shoot" crowd, because there is absolutely no basis for those.

The problem with these media-driven narratives is that some people buy into them and start thinking that they're victims of the police based on their skin color. The sad result has been increasing attacks on officers, and officers becoming slower to respond to emergency calls in certain inner city neighborhoods, an undesirable effect known as "depolicing."

Ironically, the people who have been pretending that blacks are shot at a higher rate (MSM and progressives), are the ones who are actually making things worse for inner city black communities. They are responsible for increasing violent crimes in those areas.

I'm always amazed at those who don't bother to do their research and their ignorance creates the very situation they seek to appease (violence in black neighborhoods). Truly, it just amazes me.
 
Were police justified in shooting an unarmed man who had committed no crime and posed no threat to them? No. That's a ****ing stupid question. Police failed to accurately assess and appropriately respond to the situation, and as a result of their failure a man was killed.
 
spud_meister said:
Were police justified in shooting an unarmed man who had committed no crime and posed no threat to them? No. That's a ****ing stupid question. Police failed to accurately assess and appropriately respond to the situation, and as a result of their failure a man was killed.
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Keep your eyes open and you'll find out whether it was legally justified or not. Your opinion, while you have every right to it, isn't used to determine our laws.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Keep your eyes open and you'll find out whether it was legally justified or not. Your opinion, while you have every right to it, isn't used to determine our laws.
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Legally, the state will protect its enforcers. Morally, the police killed a man who was no danger to anyone.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Unless things have changed drastically, most NYPD don't patrol in body armor, and no cop wants to get shot.
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When my kid brother was in the NYPD Patrol Bureau back in the 80s and 90s I remember him wearing a Kevlar vest. Don't know if it was required or not. I also remember him hating the thing for some reason - might have been uncomfortable/hot or something.
 
spud_meister said:
Legally, the state will protect its enforcers. Morally, the police killed a man who was no danger to anyone.
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Morals, or rather, your perception of morals, does not apply here, and your perception is akin to those anti-choicers who want to restrict women's right to abort, because abortion doesn't meet their moral test.

The only thing that matters here is the law.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Morals, or rather, your perception of morals, does not apply here, and your perception is akin to those anti-choicers who want to restrict women's right to abort, because abortion doesn't meet their moral test.

The only thing that matters here is the law.
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Legal is not the same as right. The state has a vested interest in protecting its enforcers, and so any legal outcomes are suspect.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Let's all remember that black suspects are NOT shot at a higher rate than white suspects. The Harvard study, conducted by a black professor proved this.

Instead of creating racially charged stories, the media should focus on the real problems officers have in situations like this one.
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Unarmed minority suspects are killed at a much higher rate than Whites. There is a real problem there...

police_unarmed_victims.0.png
 
iguanaman said:
Unarmed minority suspects are killed at a much higher rate than Whites. There is a real problem there...
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I suggest you read the Harvard study. It addresses whether officers exhibit bias against minorities in shootings. The results are very clear -- they do not.

There's a reason for the numbers on your chart, but it has nothing to do with officer bias.
 
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