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Should the US Military Be In Charge Of A Border Wall

Should The US Military Be In Charge Of A Border Wall And Pay For It?

  • Total voters
    53
Gaius46 said:
Why?


Saying demographics like it's some magical incantation really doesn't cut the mustard. What about our demographics makes you think we wouldn't get the same result from drug legalization as Portugal?
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Poland is essentially ethnically homogenous. It's also almost entirely Catholic. As many sociologists have shown, racial diversity decreases social trust, which increases crime and other bad outcomes.

California is 38% non-Hispanic white, 40% Hispanic, 15% Asian, and 6% Black. This is an entirely different society than what Portugal has.
 
Moderate Right said:
and pay for it? I say great idea! The border is part of our national security in several different ways so the military should be both in charge of it and pay for it. The border patrol can be a branch of the US Military and the funds to build it can come out of the military budget.
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Trump promised hundreds of times that Mexico would pay for it.
 
phattonez said:
No, I mean that California has a very different people than Portugal. There are economic factors to consider as well, such as homeownership, but if we do not correct for simple things like age and race, then we're not being serious in our comparisons.
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Okay then. Which races in California can only be deterred from drug use by brute force from a heavily armed government, yet will actively refuse medical intervention if they develop a crippling addiction?
 
Jesse Booth said:
Okay then. Which races in California can only be deterred from drug use by brute force from a heavily armed government, yet will actively refuse medical intervention if they develop a crippling addiction?
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That's not the implication. The issue is that Portugal has a high trust society where drug use would be strongly disincentivized by social pressure. In California, where there is low social trust, you do not have that strong social influence. As such, and which matches perfectly with what I've seen in San Francisco, drug use and recklessness rise to the point where you have to deal with syringes littering the streets.
 
phattonez said:
That's not the implication. The issue is that Portugal has a high trust society where drug use would be strongly disincentivized by social pressure. In California, where there is low social trust, you do not have that strong social influence. As such, and which matches perfectly with what I've seen in San Francisco, drug use and recklessness rise to the point where you have to deal with syringes littering the streets.
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Racial distrust is by no means the main cause of California's problems. Poverty, a rampant problem in California, is a far greater predictor of social unrest and criminal behavior than the social unrest caused by white people with a Spanish last name do. If low societal trust was a significant driving factor in drug abuse and violent crime, the streets of San Francisco would be flooded with gangs of tweaking Asian teenagers, shaking down passing pedestrians for meth money; this in not the case at all, and by most measures, Asians are nearly as successful as Jews are in America.
 
phattonez said:
Poland is essentially ethnically homogenous. It's also almost entirely Catholic. As many sociologists have shown, racial diversity decreases social trust, which increases crime and other bad outcomes.

California is 38% non-Hispanic white, 40% Hispanic, 15% Asian, and 6% Black. This is an entirely different society than what Portugal has.
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Is it a matter of ethnicity or exposure? I can buy the trust idea with regard to the first generation of immigrants in an area but after that? They're pretty much just like every one else.
 
Gaius46 said:
Is it a matter of ethnicity or exposure? I can buy the trust idea with regard to the first generation of immigrants in an area but after that? They're pretty much just like every one else.
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Why isn't Canada's majority-immigrant population guzzling robitussen and butchering each other in the streets? Perhaps they aren't an impoverished hellhole with a handful of rich regions lording over the masses like the bad guys in a young adults sci-fi novel?
 
Jesse Booth said:
Racial distrust is by no means the main cause of California's problems. Poverty, a rampant problem in California, is a far greater predictor of social unrest and criminal behavior than the social unrest caused by white people with a Spanish last name do.
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Actually it's not. Economics is actually quite a poor predictor of crime rates.

https://randomcriticalanalysis.word...cide-rates-are-poorly-explained-by-economics/

If low societal trust was a significant driving factor in drug abuse and violent crime, the streets of San Francisco would be flooded with gangs of tweaking Asian teenagers, shaking down passing pedestrians for meth money; this in not the case at all, and by most measures, Asians are nearly as successful as Jews are in America.
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Have you seen crime rates in San Francisco?

san-francisco-crime-rate-indexes.jpg
 
Jesse Booth said:
Man, I can't wait for the wall to stop the 2/3 of illegal immigrants who come into the countries with work visas & stay after they expire. Building a 21 billion dollar wall that passes through hundreds of miles of uninhabited wasteland will definitely be a worthy investment.
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Shhh. This is about ego.

Personally, I want to watch the eminent domain battles with the citizens who live along that border.
 
Gaius46 said:
Is it a matter of ethnicity or exposure? I can buy the trust idea with regard to the first generation of immigrants in an area but after that? They're pretty much just like every one else.
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I don't know to that level of detail. I do know that a large number of Hispanics are immigrants, so that is likely skewing the data when it comes to diversity including Hispanics. I would imagine stability in a community goes a long way toward increasing social trust. Data have shown that high home ownership, which is indicative of community stability (and investment), increases social trust.
 
Moderate Right said:
Should the US Military Be In Charge Of A Border Wall and pay for it? I say great idea!
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Like most of your "great ideas", this one also has little popular traction.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Why isn't Canada's majority-immigrant population guzzling robitussen and butchering each other in the streets? Perhaps they aren't an impoverished hellhole with a handful of rich regions lording over the masses like the bad guys in a young adults sci-fi novel?
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You might be on to something there. I grew up in one of the most diverse neighborhoods in the country (Jackson Heights, Queens, NY). Black, white, latino, Chinese, Italian, Polish, Irish, Middle eastern, you name it. There was the typical stupidity that you get everywhere but no "social trust" issues. We pretty much went to school, played ball and chased girls. Not a whole lot of crime either.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Why isn't Canada's majority-immigrant population guzzling robitussen and butchering each other in the streets? Perhaps they aren't an impoverished hellhole with a handful of rich regions lording over the masses like the bad guys in a young adults sci-fi novel?
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Canada is about 75% white/Asian. Their demographics are totally different than US demographics.
 
Gaius46 said:
You might be on to something there. I grew up in one of the most diverse neighborhoods in the country (Jackson Heights, Queens, NY). Black, white, latino, Chinese, Italian, Polish, Irish, Middle eastern, you name it. There was the typical stupidity that you get everywhere but no "social trust" issues. We pretty much went to school, played ball and chased girls. Not a whole lot of crime either.
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Jackson Heights has a rather large murder problem.

Demographic
 
phattonez said:
Actually it's not. Economics is actually quite a poor predictor of crime rates.

https://randomcriticalanalysis.word...cide-rates-are-poorly-explained-by-economics/



Have you seen crime rates in San Francisco?

san-francisco-crime-rate-indexes.jpg
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I can't seem to find it right now, but I read through another wordpress that broke down crime rates and found that absentee fathers were an even greater predictor of criminality than race (coincidentally, economic trouble is a massive predictor for out of wedlock births and divorces). San Francisco is also one of the most expensive places to live in the United States, and has thousands of homeless and destitute people. You're probably better off making 30k in Georgia than you are living in San Francisco on 50k a year, just in terms of cost of living.
 
phattonez said:
Jackson Heights has a rather large murder problem.

Demographic
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Interesting. Wonder if it's drug trade related.

Those are 2012 numbers, I lived there in the 60s through the very early 80s.
 
Jesse Booth said:
I can't seem to find it right now, but I read through another wordpress that broke down crime rates and found that absentee fathers were an even greater predictor of criminality than race (coincidentally, economic trouble is a massive predictor for out of wedlock births and divorces). San Francisco is also one of the most expensive places to live in the United States, and has thousands of homeless and destitute people. You're probably better off making 30k in Georgia than you are living in San Francisco on 50k a year, just in terms of cost of living.
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The black percentage is actually a better predictor of fatherlessness (0.76 correlation) than poverty (0.69).

https://www.debatepolitics.com/redi...cide-rates-are-poorly-explained-by-economics/
 
Jesse Booth said:
So is California, given that about half of Latinos are white.
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Are you really going to try to claim that there are no significant differences in behaviors and beliefs between Hispanics and whites?
 
Moderate Right said:
The topic of the thread is whether or not the US Military should pay for the wall. Trump wasn't mentioned at all in the OP until your TDS wanted to bring it up, off topic.
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Again trump is definitely part of the topic of the wall since HE is the one wanting it. Again don’t like it tough ****, you’re not a mod so go pound sand. I’ll continue to point he lied as usual which is why he is the liar in chief who lied about who was going to pay for the wall.
 
Moderate Right said:
Interesting. But, I couldn't make a lot of sense out of it. Seems like there are a lot of escape clauses and exceptions that could be used if wanted.
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I think and I use the phrase think that the use of active duty is out of the question. Now the National Guard is allowable as long as it is within their state's border. In other words the Texas National Guard can assume and conducted the business of the Border Police with full authority.

Those of us who are lawyers can explain better or affirm or contradict what I just said as it was my SWAG.
 
jonny5 said:
From your link:

Under the Defense Authorization Act for FY2007 (H.R. 5122), the Secretary of Defense, upon a request from the Secretary of Homeland Security, can also assist in preventing terrorists, drug traffickers, and illegal aliens from entering the United States.
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As long as proper channels are observed, somehow I missed that.
 
phattonez said:
The black percentage is actually a better predictor of fatherlessness (0.76 correlation) than poverty (0.69).

https://www.debatepolitics.com/redi...cide-rates-are-poorly-explained-by-economics/
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Fatherless better predicted crime among all ethnic groups than poverty did. You can certainly argue why blacks maintain their fatherlessness and crime rates more than other groups as income increases, but I personally posit that it's due to familial influences - I suspect that the average middle class black kid has far more shady cousins than the average middle class white kid.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Fatherless better predicted crime among all ethnic groups than poverty did. You can certainly argue why blacks maintain their fatherlessness and crime rates more than other groups as income increases, but I personally posit that it's due to familial influences - I suspect that the average middle class black kid has far more shady cousins than the average middle class white kid.
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Extended families, of course, being part of the society. Thus again, my point: society is the major determinant of crime, not poverty. Thus, Portugal, which is high trust, will likely be able to handle drug liberation, as there would still be strong social pressure against it. We wouldn't have that here, and drug use would get out of control. Basically, the entire country would become San Francisco.
 
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