View Poll Results: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

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    50 76.92%
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Thread: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

  1. #231
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    Re: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Why are we limiting this solely to Soviet citizens? Hitler (rightly) gets blame for killing foreigners under his occupation. Holocaust numbers include Soviet POWs. Why do we not include the German POWs that Stalin killed?
    Well, for a number of reasons.

    380,000 German POWs died in Soviet captivity, but that number doesn't seem so bad when you remember that 3.5 million Soviet prisoners died at German hands. Even if you accept the claim that 1 million German POWs died, that's still barely 1/3rd. That number means a lot less when you realize a large number of German POWs died due to starvation, not deliberate, just the fact that the Soviets for several years were so desperately short of food that they could barely feed their own soldiers.

    And lastly, the Ostheer carried out some of the most horrific war crimes of the war, murdering millions of Soviet civilians, Jews, and prisoners. I have little sympathy for war criminals starving to death in the GULAG.


    And what did Bagration accomplish? It got the Soviets into Poland and Eastern Europe. I'd rather have Hitler fighting Stalin deep in Russian territory instead of letting Stalin get anywhere into Eastern Europe. Hitler still has to keep up those supply lines and divert precious resources into a futile Russia campaign.



    All it does it make the Western Front tougher and the Eastern Front less brutal. In the end it's probably a wash in terms of deaths, but the outcome is way better.
    No, it doesn't. The advantage of a wide operational offensive is that it rapidly transfers a pitched battle into a route where one side simply runs over the other instead of both sides trading blows. By removing the Soviet operational capacity, you're actually making things worse, because not only are less German soldiers dying, more Soviet troops are, which makes the Red Army less of a threat, which means less Germans are required on the Eastern Front, which means a harder fight for the Western Allies.

    So in order to prevent a communist rule of Eastern Europe, you've ended up killing even more people than would've died if the Communists took over Eastern Europe, and replaced Hiroshima with Berlin. Way to go.
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  2. #232
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    Re: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So Americans should have just assumed that our government was conducting industrial scale murder of Japanese?
    Many Americans would actually have preferred that. Wartime sentiment against the Japanese was so extremely negative it made the German-American hostilities seem like a minor confrontation.

    But of course the United States didn't, unlike Nazi Germany, and like how most Americans knew about the internment camps, most Germans knew about the concentration camps.
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  3. #233
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    Re: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Hitler convinced them that German minorities in Poland were being persecuted. They had no knowledge of the Holocaust. How guilty were the civilians really?


    Quit thinking only of the US and British. We had no business allying with Stalin.


    That is bonkers. Why does Stalin get a pass for what he did before we allied with him? Why do you ignore his domination of Eastern Europe after the war?



    Meanwhile, the Soviet Union enslaved Europe and exterminated millions more people.
    Hitler was a pathological liar who staged an incident to justify his invasion of Poland using murdered prisoners dressed in Polish uniforms. Even then the German people knew full well that ole Adolf was going after the Jews. Your argument fails to work....again.

    Hitler had no business brutally attacking his neighbors and murdering millions of innocent people. We had every right to ally with whoever else he was fighting. And no, even Stalin never committed anything close to the level of atrocity which took place in Nazi Germany.

    No, it's not "bonkers"; Stalin's aggression occurred before he was allied with the West, and occurred with Hitler's agreement. That's historical fact.

    Considering the fact that the states he dominated were largely former Axis members....they made their bed, they can lay in it.

    No, actually, half of Europe was still free thanks to the Allies. All of Europe would have been enslaved to white nationalist thugs had we not helped fight Adolf.

  4. #234
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    Re: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The biggest contributor to getting the Nazis away from Moscow wasn't allied aid, it was Soviet intelligence assuring Stalin that Japan wasn't going to invade.
    Russian forces in the Far East remained at a sizable level throughout the war, so no, Allied aid was rather more important--- especially given the need to move troops from one part of the USSR's vast empire to another.

  5. #235
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    Re: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Many Americans would actually have preferred that. Wartime sentiment against the Japanese was so extremely negative it made the German-American hostilities seem like a minor confrontation.

    But of course the United States didn't, unlike Nazi Germany, and like how most Americans knew about the internment camps, most Germans knew about the concentration camps.
    And I agree that everyone knew about the concentration camps. Where we disagree is on how widespread was knowledge about industrial scale killing.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  6. #236
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    Re: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And I agree that everyone knew about the concentration camps. Where we disagree is on how widespread was knowledge about industrial scale killing.
    Oh, it was pretty common. Tens of thousands of Germans took part in the killings directly, either as local police, the Gestapo, the SS, the Einstatzgruppen, or the Ostheer. The Germans were very blunt when it came to discussing their war against the Soviets. After all, in their mind it wasn't just another war, it was a war of annihilation in which they felt necessary to exterminate the "Jewish-Bolshevik" threat. In their letters and tours back home, German soldiers were hardly reluctant to discuss how they had helped to eradicate the "great Asian horde that had for so long spoiled Europe."

    The simplest proof of this of the Germans who fled East Prussia as the Soviets reached the Vistula in late 1944, with thousands of them explaining their exodus because they were aware the Soviets were looking for revenge for all the killings that had occurred in the USSR.
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  7. #237
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    Re: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Oh, it was pretty common. Tens of thousands of Germans took part in the killings directly, either as local police, the Gestapo, the SS, the Einstatzgruppen, or the Ostheer.
    So less than 0.1%.

    The Germans were very blunt when it came to discussing their war against the Soviets. After all, in their mind it wasn't just another war, it was a war of annihilation in which they felt necessary to exterminate the "Jewish-Bolshevik" threat. In their letters and tours back home, German soldiers were hardly reluctant to discuss how they had helped to eradicate the "great Asian horde that had for so long spoiled Europe."

    The simplest proof of this of the Germans who fled East Prussia as the Soviets reached the Vistula in late 1944, with thousands of them explaining their exodus because they were aware the Soviets were looking for revenge for all the killings that had occurred in the USSR.
    Just as easily referencing the millions of war casualties.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #238
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    Re: Is "Civil Disobedience" a legitimate tool to effect government change?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So less than 0.1%.
    Who clearly existed in a vacuum and were in no way connected to the rest of German society or it's people through family, friends, or simple acquaintances.

    Just as easily referencing the millions of war casualties.
    Except the explicit references to the mass killings carried out against the Jews and Communists, both of which were well known to the German public.
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