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Was the right to bear arms originally meant to be an individual right or a collective right?

Was the right to bear arms originally meant as an Individual right or a Collective right?

  • Individual Right

    Votes: 51 70.8%
  • Collective Right

    Votes: 17 23.6%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 4 5.6%

  • Total voters
    72
  • Poll closed .
Exactly, that means that only individuals make up a militia. The state is not involved. And individuals cannot do that without the right to bear arms.

lol. only in right wing fantasy. It means no standing army. The militia is not a standing army. It means, individuals organized for collective action.
 
lol. only in right wing fantasy. It means no standing army. The militia is not a standing army. It means, individuals organized for collective action.

how can "the People" organize a militia without the right to bear arms?

You keep trying to dance away, but you'll answer one of these days lol.
 
Are Militia members not troops?
How can a state have a militia without the right to bear arms for the individuals? If the individuals do not have that right it is impossible to organize a militia.... unless, you are talking about a state army...

Do you have a right to own brooms? Did the Founders include that right in the constitution?

No.

Why not?

Everyone already had a broom, and nobody needed to say anything about it in the tooshun, correct?

The same applied to muskets.

The Founders had no need to mention private people’s muskets, because nobody questioned their ownership. They were talking about Arming a State Militia.
 
Not in our Second Amendment. Both Militia and the People are collective terms. Both terms are literally, in our Second Amendment. Your interpretation is irrelevant.

a literal interpretation. your, implied interpretation is, irrelevant.

everywhere an individual right. There's nothing special about the 2nd. It's an individual right, too. Go read it. it's right there in black and white. the literal interpretation is individual right.
 
Long ranges are mostly restricted to combat. Every day self defense is close quarters. And yeah, in that case a person with a 9mm has a better chance of defending himself against someone with an AR15 than an unarmed 110lb woman has of defending herself against an unarmed 200lb man.

Perfect equalizer? No. Equalizer? Yes.

Maybe, but I can guarantee you which one has considerably better odds in that fight.
 
Are Militia members not troops?
How can a state have a militia without the right to bear arms for the individuals? If the individuals do not have that right it is impossible to organize a militia.... unless, you are talking about a state army...

"Troops" are no militia men. Militia men were not being referred to.
 
NO I went to work, and earn a living, instead of trolling your bull**** leftist garbage like you do here all day long probably paid for by a hard working Republican.

and then you returned here ignoring the thread where you were given the evidence you demanded and it proved you wrong. So you then went running to a different thread to issue the same sort of silly challenge you did before.

Your tactics and methods have been exposed.
 
and then you returned here ignoring the thread where you were given the evidence you demanded and it proved you wrong. So you then went running to a different thread to issue the same sort of silly challenge you did before.

Your tactics and methods have been exposed.

:lamo

Your tactics are what has been exposed, only your incapable of accepting any facts! :lamo

You lost this battle, look at the poll results! :lamo

Not smart enough to quit and admit defeat are you? :lamo

I made my point and you, well you made what, nothing? This board and America are firmly convinced it is an individule right.

Nothing you can say or do can change that. So how does it feel to be backed into a corner? :mrgreen:
 
:lamo

Your tactics are what has been exposed, only your incapable of accepting any facts! :lamo

You lost this battle, look at the poll results! :lamo

Not smart enough to quit and admit defeat are you? :lamo

I made my point and you, well you made what, nothing? This board and America are firmly convinced it is an individule right.

Nothing you can say or do can change that. So how does it feel to be backed into a corner? :mrgreen:

I have not seen any poll results on your running away from the evidence I provided to you after your rude challenge to me. Have you?

Here was your original challenge to me and my response. And then you ran away and refused to respond .

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...tougher-russia-than-obama.html#post1068203046

post #5 has it all.
 
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It was a collective right in the context of militia service that the right wing hijacked and got a 5-4 narrow decision making it an individual right after a 20 plus year campaign in right wing legal circles to do just that.

That's a democracy for you. Freedom of choice and of the most voted position.
 
But you can defend yourself in so many other ways without the use of a gun. Man did so quite well before the discovery of gun powder or the invention of the long barrel or the cannon.

Welcome to evolution my dear friend. Pick up a pamphlet and join the others.
 
It was an individual right, but not how we see it today. The founders were against a standing army. They wanted the government to have to rely upon armed citizens to defend the country. Their reasoning was that a government without a standing army that had to depend upon its citizenry for the nation's defenses, could never become totalitarian.
 
I have not seen any poll results on your running away from the evidence I provided to you after your rude challenge to me. Have you?

Are you dense? look at the top of this page and see... :lol: It is a poll about THIS thread.

As for the other, Trump has had nothing to punish the Russians for since he took office. There was no damage of consequence in the election as has been proven. You have nothing once again.

At this point it appears your doing nothing but wasting my time. Believe me I have much better, more important things to consider than you. :mrgreen:
 
That's a democracy for you. Freedom of choice and of the most voted position.

What does a democracy have to do with a narrow Supreme Court decision?
 
Are you dense? look at the top of this page and see... :lol: It is a poll about THIS thread.

Bingo.:doh:roll:

So why then did you invoke the results of this thread poll so justify your actions running away from the ot her thread were you laid down a challenge, it was met and then you fled without responding?

here it is again for you

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...tougher-russia-than-obama.html#post1068203046

As for the other, Trump has had nothing to punish the Russians for since he took office. There was no damage of consequence in the election as has been proven. You have nothing once again.

Do you operate under the delusion that a President only acts on what was done during the narrow confines of the time they have been in office?

What exactly has "been proven" regarding the election results that you are referring to?
 
Bingo.:doh:roll:

So why then did you invoke the results of this thread poll so justify your actions running away from the ot her thread were you laid down a challenge, it was met and then you fled without responding?

here it is again for you

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...tougher-russia-than-obama.html#post1068203046

:roll: Oh brother..... You just don't get anything do you? Bet you were not the kid every one wanted to play with in the sandbox were you?

Just like back then, I am so done with you. :lamo
 
everywhere an individual right. There's nothing special about the 2nd. It's an individual right, too. Go read it. it's right there in black and white. the literal interpretation is individual right.

Yes, there is; the literal meaning of the words, with no, implied meaning.
 
It was an individual right, but not how we see it today. The founders were against a standing army. They wanted the government to have to rely upon armed citizens to defend the country. Their reasoning was that a government without a standing army that had to depend upon its citizenry for the nation's defenses, could never become totalitarian.

yet, the right wing refuses to muster to become Necessary.
 
You make a good point. The true way it should be emphasized is as follows:

“A "well regulated Militia", being necessary to the “security" of a free “State", the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In modern English we would translate it thus:

“A free democratic nation requires a well-armed, well-regulated military, and this right, of the people, shall not be infringed.”

Basically they were saying that a well-armed, disciplined militia was essential for a free people to exist. Modern Americans (led by gun nuts) have either deliberately, or without realizing it, misinterpreted it. Remember, in those days everyone had a musket, and the ownership of muskets was never in question. Why would the Founders bother to say, “Everyone has the right to a musket.”

Yes, and in this case the people had the right to a fully armed militia. What’s the problem?

It’s easy for people to misinterpret the second. It was badly written, and made worse in re-writing. I don’t blame judges for misunderstanding it.

You almost make sense, but there are a few errors in your viewpoint.

Perhaps this post from some years ago might help:

Well, your disagreement notwithstanding....

What I learned was that...it was a fundamental belief of the society that a person had a right to bear arms. It was a given, something that did not need further argument or debate.

I'm sure you are aware that when dealing with a fundamental social assumption, all other debates grow out of how that assumption affects a particular issue.

Think of any fundamental belief we now have today to find a parallel. I offer Women's rights as an example. Although it took a while for women to get parity with men in our society; now we don't argue about their ability to vote or have equal opportunities in education and employment, etc.. No, our arguments are about nuances, like you see happening in the Forum threads concerning women in Combat Arms.

That was the situation back when the issue of the Second Amendment and the debates about militia vs. standing army occurred. The foundational assumption was that all citizens already had the right to bear arms...

...there was no need for a standing army since the pool of armed citizens provided a viable, and less threatening, alternative through continued use of citizen militias. That's why the opening clause provides for a militia as an explanation for the limitation on the military power of the Federal government, while the second clause makes it clear the People have an inviolable right to keep and bear arms which shall not be infringed.

This was made clear in United States v. Cruikshank (1876):

"The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."

Citizens like yourself are arguing from current assumption bias. You don't think individuals should have this right, you have been taught that the Constitution is a "living document" than can adjust to current social ideology, and you are projecting what you believe to be the "right way" of reading it based on those current assumptions.

Yet the vast majority of notes, letters, and writings on the subject at the time show it was considered an individual right.

You are simply incorrect. :shrug:
 
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:roll: Oh brother..... You just don't get anything do you? Bet you were not the kid every one wanted to play with in the sandbox were you?

Just like back then, I am so done with you. :lamo

I see the personal insults. I see the vitriol directed at me designed to make you feel better.

Where is the refutation of my post to you?

Where is your response to the information you challenged me to present and then ran away from in the thread I have linked for you?
 
Our Second Article of Amendment cannot what is claimed by the right wing, Because, it would have to be a Constitution unto itself.
 
yet, the right wing refuses to muster to become Necessary.

Many people today have this notion that the right to bear arms was meant as a check on the power of the government and its military, when in fact, it was so the government would not have a military.

It is not a notion that fits with the modern world at all, thus we have an entirely different interpretation of the 2nd Amendment today as compared to how the founders would have saw it originally.
 
No, that explanation doesn't hold water. Whenever the government raised an army there would be no question of them supplying it with arms. There was never any purpose for the second amendment unless it was to guarantee the right of individuals to bear arms. It was the "right of the people to bear arms" that could not be infringed.

It seems that there was a debate on this point even then. Some who did not want the people who have that right and some who did. But in the end the latter won out since otherwise there would be no second amendment at all.

Why would there be no second amendment if it had been 'outdated' or unnecessary? For example, the 10th amendment said 'only those amendments up to the 10th were binding' and every consequent 'right' would be given to the states yet the 15th amendment dealt with all blacks residing in America giving them the right to vote superseded many desires of some southern states and literally outdating that 10th amendment.

And no, in the original eventual wording and intent of the first congress in 1789, the second amendment was a right given to states' militias. I know some prominent state's constitutions of that day like, for example, Virginia's guaranteed the individual right to bear arms but this was The Constitution of the United States and not some state's constitution passed by the first American congress in 1789.

Just like some states grant driving privileges to undocumenteds and some don't.
 
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I see the personal insults. I see the vitriol directed at me designed to make you feel better.

Where is the refutation of my post to you?

Where is your response to the information you challenged me to present and then ran away from in the thread I have linked for you?

Your not ever in the correct thread. I have 2 semi's and 10,000 bushels of corn to move today. So what besides your constant whining here are you going to get done? Nothing?

Your obviously just another left wing troll who is on the dole for some lied about ailment. Detroit I clearly showed you was destroyed by 60 years of Democrats and unions. I could demand like a baby we go back to that one. But I am more mature than that. And once again you clearly were defeated in that thread as well.. :lamo

So go about your day, knowing people actually don't all live in a bubble here on this board like you do. Obviously you have failed to explain why and how your able to spend 24 hours a day here with TDS and a very bad case of it as well.. :lol:
 
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