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Syria - Is War With Israel Imminent

Is Israel wrong because this was in Syrian Airspace?


  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
I often wonder what the ME would be like today if we hadn't installed the Shaw. If we hadn't abandoned Afghanistan after the Russians left. Just those two things. We have made some really big mistakes in the name of the enemy of my enemy is my friend and other useless policies.

That's the thing. The Shaw was already there and had power. What we did was destroy Iranian democracy because the British convinced us that "communism," not their oil, was the issue. After a couple years of Truman refusing to bend towards British arguments of a needed coup, it only took two weeks for the British (and the Dulles brothers) to convince the new President Eisenhower that "communism" was about to take control of Iran. And there is no evidence to suggest that Eisenhower knew that the British had been sewing discord towards democracy in Iran for years with communist propaganda in Iranian newspapers. This is not conspiracy. This is historic truth.

Our near sighted policies, under one Administration to the next, is exactly why our Foreign Policy keeps missing the mark today.

* But with Islamists in Iran having a legitimate political voice in the 1950s, you are right. There is no telling where the Islamist mind might be today. (Careful about which version of Kinzer you may have read. He went too far in the Epilogue of his 2008 edition.)
 
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Poor guy.

No, it isn't about me. That is one of the lamest responses possible, indicative of one who is totally bereft of thought.

Your concern should be for all the poor tens of millions the US has slaughtered just to steal the bread out of starving children's mouths. And so few of the kind, generous, benevolent, warm, loving Americans seem to care.
 
No, it isn't about me. That is one of the lamest responses possible, indicative of one who is totally bereft of thought.

Your concern should be for all the poor tens of millions the US has slaughtered just to steal the bread out of starving children's mouths. And so few of the kind, generous, benevolent, warm, loving Americans seem to care.

Hyperbole and lies...

Save it for the CT Forum.
 
No, it isn't about me. That is one of the lamest responses possible, indicative of one who is totally bereft of thought.

Your concern should be for all the poor tens of millions the US has slaughtered just to steal the bread out of starving children's mouths. And so few of the kind, generous, benevolent, warm, loving Americans seem to care.

Really? Um..an apple is often colored in red. <--- Hey look....a thought. Apparently, I am not bereft of thought. This is me pointing out your personal need for extremism to try to make points.

As to your exaggerated actual point...no, I don't care about a people's need to blame a foreign devil for their personal cultural failures. Um...bake some bread a-holes.

And we are still not willing to declare who we are, are we? It's hard to try to understand a person's viewpoint when they hide who they are and where they are coming from. You may find, if you had enough integrity, that I am very receptive to multiple viewpoints in a complex world.
 
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The quotes must mean "a modern US illegal invasion of a sovereign nation, just like Vietnam".

So you're ok with Russia's support of Syria's brutal Assad regime that's murdered thousands.
 
I know I was simplifying. But we helped remove a real democratically elected government. I don't think they have forgiven us to this day and don't trust us not to do something similar again.

Was this to me in regards to Iran?

We did. And we have to own that. Iranians were well aware of what happened in 1953, long before the average American became aware, which is why "Death to America" shocked the hell out of the world twenty years later in 1979. Because of our average citizenry ignorance, we allowed Iranians (and the rest of the world) to write the narrative that declared that they were complete victims. Considering that the Iranian religious elite (Ayatollah Kashani among others) helped Kermit Roosevelt (CIA & a son of Theodore Roosevelt) in the cause against Mosaddegh (Iranian democracy), Iran may not be a simple victim.

But, the problem between the U.S. and Iran has largely been about the 1979-80 Hostage Crisis. We've actively sought (with Israel's help) to create an enemy out of Iran ever since.
 
So you're ok with Russia's support of Syria's brutal Assad regime that's murdered thousands.

Nah, forget him. The poster is pointless.

BUT recognize where you are. Bashar al-Assad, like Saddam Hussein, is brutal, oppressive, and slaughters his own. Bush failed to explain the situation properly in 2003. Obama, in regards to the Arab Spring, failed to explain the situation properly in 2011. And Trump...um...fails.

Assad's regime represents exactly what both Islamists and Modernists are locally fighting against; with the end result being a definition of Islam in the modern age. And our nation doesn't even know the difference or the context of an Islamic Modernist (Arab Spring) and an Islamist (IS, Taliban).
 
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"R"ight side of history. Think feminists when they defended Bill Clinton.



No need for an Arab Spring then, right? Yet, there it was. And it took a lot of begging from the French to convince Obama to drop bombs. Literally, right before that, the French had just publicly declared to stand by their dictator in Tunisia (who fell). What should that tell you about some CIA conspiracy to sow instability? Arabs/Muslims have been screwed over for decades by the powerful. Let them have their earned Arab Spring. There will be more.

"Stability" was the name of the game during the Cold War. Resources needed "to flow" and be denied to others in a period where both sides sought to define a global economic and political system. This is why we supported strongmen. They were easier to control than democracies. After the Cold War, like what we did with Afghanistan, we simply walked away. Sure, we kept paying the allowances, but for the most part the dictators were left to their own devices. It came down to habit. This is why we mindlessly kept supporting Pakistan, despite its support of the Taliban in the 1990s while Iran, Russia, and India were supporting Massoud's Northern Alliance against both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. By the way, this would be an example of America, obviously, being on the wrong side of history. And habit put us there.

But along comes the Arab Spring and you think we were looking for instability? This defies our history of clinging to habit. The fact that Obama was clueless as to what to do with Mubarak in Egypt should tell you that we were caught as flat footed as we were during Iran's Islamic Revolution when the CIA and the KGB blamed each other.

* I would absolutely love to get you into a classroom. You have plenty of knowledge. But you don't seem to know where that knowledge of truth falls into exaggeration and irrational conspiracy.

Where is the "certain" CIA intrigue in your version of history? You underestimate their power, covertly and politically. In a further post, you mention the Dulles brothers, but fail to make the CIA connection. Like Latin America, denialability is the only driver of information. Coups, death squads, drugs, weapons, crooked banks, and CIA alliances with Corporatists for the benefit of the Corporatists and that tradition continues. That's what you fail to acknowledge.
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"R"ight side of history. Think feminists when they defended Bill Clinton.



No need for an Arab Spring then, right? Yet, there it was. And it took a lot of begging from the French to convince Obama to drop bombs. Literally, right before that, the French had just publicly declared to stand by their dictator in Tunisia (who fell). What should that tell you about some CIA conspiracy to sow instability? Arabs/Muslims have been screwed over for decades by the powerful. Let them have their earned Arab Spring. There will be more.

"Stability" was the name of the game during the Cold War. Resources needed "to flow" and be denied to others in a period where both sides sought to define a global economic and political system. This is why we supported strongmen. They were easier to control than democracies. After the Cold War, like what we did with Afghanistan, we simply walked away. Sure, we kept paying the allowances, but for the most part the dictators were left to their own devices. It came down to habit. This is why we mindlessly kept supporting Pakistan, despite its support of the Taliban in the 1990s while Iran, Russia, and India were supporting Massoud's Northern Alliance against both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. By the way, this would be an example of America, obviously, being on the wrong side of history. And habit put us there.

But along comes the Arab Spring and you think we were looking for instability? This defies our history of clinging to habit. The fact that Obama was clueless as to what to do with Mubarak in Egypt should tell you that we were caught as flat footed as we were during Iran's Islamic Revolution when the CIA and the KGB blamed each other.

* I would absolutely love to get you into a classroom. You have plenty of knowledge. But you don't seem to know where that knowledge of truth falls into exaggeration and irrational conspiracy.

No Arab Spring. Qaddafi said he had to attack Islamist/ISIS in Eastern Libya and the US and its' stooges stated that Qaddafi was killing civilians. The civilian story made all the MSM headlines and Hilary had her Libya War with no winners, as in all wars. Libyans are the losers en masse. Haftar, who had lived the last 20 years near CIA headquarters, suddenly is re-inserted and is now a key player. Along the way Benghazi, a CIA operation to funnel arms from Libyan armories to ISIS in Syria through Turkey. CIA and ISIS, gee, what a conundrum? Or not? The USA is trying to get a dictator that we can control in each ME Nation. That part is clear.
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Nah, forget him. The poster is pointless.

BUT recognize where you are. Bashar al-Assad, like Saddam Hussein, is brutal, oppressive, and slaughters his own. Bush failed to explain the situation properly in 2003. Obama, in regards to the Arab Spring, failed to explain the situation properly in 2011. And Trump...um...fails.

Assad's regime represents exactly what both Islamists and Modernists are locally fighting against; with the end result being a definition of Islam in the modern age. And our nation doesn't even know the difference or the context of an Islamic Modernist (Arab Spring) and an Islamist (IS, Taliban).

You have a much better understanding of the situation that me - all I know is - it's a mess and if Israel gets dragged into it (like the arab countries always try to do) we might get dragged into the mess even further.
 
No Arab Spring. Qaddafi said he had to attack Islamist/ISIS in Eastern Libya and the US and its' stooges stated that Qaddafi was killing civilians. The civilian story made all the MSM headlines and Hilary had her Libya War with no winners, as in all wars. Libyans are the losers en masse. Haftar, who had lived the last 20 years near CIA headquarters, suddenly is re-inserted and is now a key player. Along the way Benghazi, a CIA operation to funnel arms from Libyan armories to ISIS in Syria through Turkey. CIA and ISIS, gee, what a conundrum? Or not? The USA is trying to get a dictator that we can control in each ME Nation. That part is clear.
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Oh, FFS...

Now the magic CIA is running everyone that isn't Gaddafi, Saddam or Assad...
 
Where is the "certain" CIA intrigue in your version of history? You underestimate their power, covertly and politically. In a further post, you mention the Dulles brothers, but fail to make the CIA connection. Like Latin America, denialability is the only driver of information. Coups, death squads, drugs, weapons, crooked banks, and CIA alliances with Corporatists for the benefit of the Corporatists and that tradition continues. That's what you fail to acknowledge.
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It's not about failing to detail out the CIA, a factual connection to the Dulles Brothers over Iran, or "my" version of history. I'm simply limited in space, which is why I have tried to stay focused on points. I am well aware of plenty of the CIA's activity, which is why I have not argued against you in regards to the CIA's role in our history. I gave you two fantastic books full of primary documentation that would shock you about the CIA's activity. I don't know what you think I do not acknowledge.

But if you understand enough of this history, then you should be able to clearly see that the CIA is not behind everything and often enough have nothing to do with events before the fact. And given that messy history of success and failures, I think you overestimate the CIA's capabilities. There's just nothing about Syria that suggests a CIA plot to establish corporation. (And a future 7-11 convenient store in down town Damascus is not proof of a CIA plot.)
 
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It's not about failing to detail out the CIA, a factual connection to the Dulles Brothers over Iran, or "my" version of history. I'm simply limited in space, which is why I have tried to stay focused on points. I am well aware of plenty of the CIA's activity, which is why I have not argued against you in regards to the CIA's role in our history. I gave you two fantastic books full of primary documentation that would shock you about the CIA's activity. I don't know what you think I do not acknowledge.

But if you understand enough of this history, then you should be able to clearly see that the CIA is not behind everything and often enough have nothing to do with events before the fact. And given that messy history of success and failures, I think you overestimate the CIA's capabilities. There's just nothing about Syria that suggests a CIA plot to establish corporation. (And a future 7-11 convenient store in down town Damascus is not proof of a CIA plot.)

You must have caught a little Embassy duty during your tours. We discuss hegemony, territorial provacations, airspace violations, and the arrogance of Nations who practice these abominations as if it is a Divine Right. I'm ashamed of the USA in these matters. I never underestimate the CIA because for years their closest alliances have been with MultiNational Big Money. I think they suffer from hubris that has replaced Patriotism and they feel they know better than Elected Leaders and voters. That is the Deep State allied to Big Money and is there any Bigger Money than the MIC? Israel does the same thing and that is what this post was designed to illuminate. Casual violation of Syrian airspace as if it's all OK. It is NOT! It is illegal. It is wrong. We, as a people, are better than our leaders and the MIC in all its' manifestations. We need to regain control.
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You have a much better understanding of the situation that me - all I know is - it's a mess and if Israel gets dragged into it (like the arab countries always try to do) we might get dragged into the mess even further.

Yeah, Israel is a constant problem because they exploit their relationship to the U.S. The only reason they are so aggressive with their defense is that they know that the region knows we sit in their corner. We have placed our image into the hands of Israelis and they constantly paint us in the corner and makes matters more difficult than they have to be. And, of course, they are quite fond of using Iran as that ultimate evil in the region to get us irrationally riled up. It's a long sorted path from where we were, when Eisenhower bent Israel, Britain, and France over his knee in 1956, to where we are now.
 
You must have caught a little Embassy duty during your tours. We discuss hegemony, territorial provacations, airspace violations, and the arrogance of Nations who practice these abominations as if it is a Divine Right. I'm ashamed of the USA in these matters. I never underestimate the CIA because for years their closest alliances have been with MultiNational Big Money. I think they suffer from hubris that has replaced Patriotism and they feel they know better than Elected Leaders and voters. That is the Deep State allied to Big Money and is there any Bigger Money than the MIC? Israel does the same thing and that is what this post was designed to illuminate. Casual violation of Syrian airspace as if it's all OK. It is NOT! It is illegal. It is wrong. We, as a people, are better than our leaders and the MIC in all its' manifestations. We need to regain control.
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No, no embassy duty.

Two things:

1) Hubris. You are absolutely correct here. One of the worse things to happen to the CIA was the 1953 coup in Iran. It was the first time America sought to topple a foreign government and it was a stunning success. The CIA learned from that and the coup became a tool. But the joke is that it was less CIA and more about a single individual who refused to listen to orders from the CIA and Washington to abandon all after it initially failed. Regardless, the CIA/Washington learned that it was easier to ignite or support a local coup than practice proper diplomacy. I'm betting that you have read Kinzer. If you haven't I recommend it as the best book ever written on the coup. Just ignore the Epilogue in the 2008 version. He goes too far and it is obviously just the publisher's request for Kinzer (who is a journalist, not a historian) to tie, simply, the coup to current events.

2) Before this we can see where the CIA got into bed with corporations if we look at some of ARAMCO's history with Saudi Arabia. It began in 1945 and by the time the CIA was officially formed in 1947, ARAMCO had begun to need assistance from the U.S. government with Saudi Arabia. ARAMCO pulled in the CIA in the "interest of the United States." This is one of the ways the CIA became wed to economic issues (oil, sugar, rubber, etc.).

But just because the CIA is everywhere doesn't mean the CIA is actively conducting operations everywhere. Crap happens all the time and the CIA's job routinely is to try to figure out what happened. Like I stated before, the Islamic Revolution in 1979 caught everybody off guard and the CIA and KGB, who were present, blamed each other as historians went to work to explain it. They reacted to the Arab Spring too; and we can declare this because instability defies the pattern of ensuring that stability (at all costs) keeps the lights on.

In terms of economy, sure, America's interests do involve resources. But nations have always used their militaries for such matters. And Intel organizations have always been a part of that game.
 
Was this to me in regards to Iran?

We did. And we have to own that. Iranians were well aware of what happened in 1953, long before the average American became aware, which is why "Death to America" shocked the hell out of the world twenty years later in 1979. Because of our average citizenry ignorance, we allowed Iranians (and the rest of the world) to write the narrative that declared that they were complete victims. Considering that the Iranian religious elite (Ayatollah Kashani among others) helped Kermit Roosevelt (CIA & a son of Theodore Roosevelt) in the cause against Mosaddegh (Iranian democracy), Iran may not be a simple victim.

But, the problem between the U.S. and Iran has largely been about the 1979-80 Hostage Crisis. We've actively sought (with Israel's help) to create an enemy out of Iran ever since.

A few years back I watched a series of interviews from Tehran. It was enlightening to see old men sitting in coffee shops recanting the history of Iran and their view of it. And they are entitled to their view, of the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc. These people do not forget anything. And they are slow to forgive. We screwed that up so badly. We were this close to a democratic, secular ally in the middle east with a highly educated population, who disliked Iraq. And just because they didn't want to be enemies with the soviets, we screwed it all up.
 
No, no embassy duty.

Two things:

1) Hubris. You are absolutely correct here. One of the worse things to happen to the CIA was the 1953 coup in Iran. It was the first time America sought to topple a foreign government and it was a stunning success. The CIA learned from that and the coup became a tool. But the joke is that it was less CIA and more about a single individual who refused to listen to orders from the CIA and Washington to abandon all after it initially failed. Regardless, the CIA/Washington learned that it was easier to ignite or support a local coup than practice proper diplomacy. I'm betting that you have read Kinzer. If you haven't I recommend it as the best book ever written on the coup. Just ignore the Epilogue in the 2008 version. He goes too far and it is obviously just the publisher's request for Kinzer (who is a journalist, not a historian) to tie, simply, the coup to current events.

2) Before this we can see where the CIA got into bed with corporations if we look at some of ARAMCO's history with Saudi Arabia. It began in 1945 and by the time the CIA was officially formed in 1947, ARAMCO had begun to need assistance from the U.S. government with Saudi Arabia. ARAMCO pulled in the CIA in the "interest of the United States." This is one of the ways the CIA became wed to economic issues (oil, sugar, rubber, etc.).

But just because the CIA is everywhere doesn't mean the CIA is actively conducting operations everywhere. Crap happens all the time and the CIA's job routinely is to try to figure out what happened. Like I stated before, the Islamic Revolution in 1979 caught everybody off guard and the CIA and KGB, who were present, blamed each other as historians went to work to explain it. They reacted to the Arab Spring too; and we can declare this because instability defies the pattern of ensuring that stability (at all costs) keeps the lights on.

In terms of economy, sure, America's interests do involve resources. But nations have always used their militaries for such matters. And Intel organizations have always been a part of that game.

I thought Embassy duty may have been what gave you a true view of the World that is extremely difficult for someone with Marine indoctrination to see. It is catharctic to have the Military view of the World turned upside down by reality. Anyway, I wanted to return the favor on the recommended books by recommending a Internet site.
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< THIRD WORLD TRAVELER - THIRD WORLD, FOREIGN POLICY, FRIENDLY DICTATORS, WAR CRIMES, HUMAN RIGHTS, COUPS, FALSE FLAGS, RULING ELITE, GLOBAL OLIGARCHY, FINANCIAL OLIGARCHY, GLOBALISM, CORPORATE OLIGARCHY, PROPAGANDA, CORPORATE MEDIA, INTERNATIONAL TRAV >
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Absolutely the best infromation site on the Net. It'll take a long time to peruse the site, but well worth it. It's a lot of stuff you won't want to read, but lots of truth. I hope it proves resourceful and personally rewarding for you. Huge access to Intelligence Agency activities. Economic information that reveals how the World actually functions. Enlightening is not a strong enough description of the site.
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I thought Embassy duty may have been what gave you a true view of the World that is extremely difficult for someone with Marine indoctrination to see. It is catharctic to have the Military view of the World turned upside down by reality. Anyway, I wanted to return the favor on the recommended books by recommending a Internet site.
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< THIRD WORLD TRAVELER - THIRD WORLD, FOREIGN POLICY, FRIENDLY DICTATORS, WAR CRIMES, HUMAN RIGHTS, COUPS, FALSE FLAGS, RULING ELITE, GLOBAL OLIGARCHY, FINANCIAL OLIGARCHY, GLOBALISM, CORPORATE OLIGARCHY, PROPAGANDA, CORPORATE MEDIA, INTERNATIONAL TRAV >
.
Absolutely the best infromation site on the Net. It'll take a long time to peruse the site, but well worth it. It's a lot of stuff you won't want to read, but lots of truth. I hope it proves resourceful and personally rewarding for you. Huge access to Intelligence Agency activities. Economic information that reveals how the World actually functions. Enlightening is not a strong enough description of the site.
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Awww

So cute. A site dedicated to slamming America.
 
I thought Embassy duty may have been what gave you a true view of the World that is extremely difficult for someone with Marine indoctrination to see. It is catharctic to have the Military view of the World turned upside down by reality.

That's a false stereotype that would normally fall to the guy who does four years and gets out. In such a temporary capacity, most one-termers don't even think about it. No, I'm the product of wanting to understand and wanting to give meaning to certain matters over the course of twenty years. And afterwards, five years of intense University study into Foreign Policy and M.E. history. Words like "democracy" and "freedom" just don't cut it if you want to understand what you did for twenty years.


I'm familiar with some of these titles and authors...

The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy - John J. Mearsheimer
People's History of the United States, A - Howard Zinn
Safe For Democracy - John Prados (I just dropped this one to you)
War Is A Racket - Smedley D. Butler <---A Marine.

Kinzer is in there too. But you have to be careful with such a site. I was not surprised to see Chomsky salted throughout. I'm fine with Chomsky, but people (and these kinds of sites) love to take him out of context when presenting their personal narratives. Chomsky is first, and foremost, a social critic and political activist. His writing is almost entirely about how imperfect the U.S. and thus his presented histories of the U.S. cater to that perspective. Grain of salt.

My point is that the author matters, as does whether or not the material is peer-reviewed. A book written and argued through legitimate primary sources is not the same thing as a book written and argued through preconceptions and sources that are forced to fit into a desired narrative. Propaganda easily becomes a part of the narrative. And a book written from the perspective of a single witness (the author) is typically not a great source by itself. He must argue through the primary sources and less his personal experience. Journalists (and others) are fond of shaping the facts into a desired narrative that fits his private experience, rather than allowing the facts to dictate the narrative. But if one reads a book on this event, another book on that event, and then start mashing them together, it can look like an invisible CIA hand that covers the earth in scandal and intrigue. This is why to understand any particular subject or event, one must read 8-10 books on it. For example, I have read near 15 books on the Islamic Revolution. Because of Change Over Time, newer source reveals, and increased understanding through multiple perspectives of the facts, not a single author is 100% correct all by him/herself.

Historians are very careful about their method and their personal political bias, but even they sometimes can imply an untruth simply because space demands that some facts be omitted. For example...

- Gadiss' shortened book on the Cold War has a slight Right lean (America the great).
- LaFeber's book on the Cold War has a Left lean (America's fault)
- Westad's book on the Cold War presents a more neutral position.

All three historians are respected giants in the field, but because Gaddis leans a bit to the Right, and shortened his book, he makes two errors in regards to Iran (one in the 1940s and one in 1979). LaFeber tends to place all responsibility for the post-World War break down between the Soviets and the U.S. on the U.S. (Think a less enthused Chomskey). Now, add Zubok's neutral book on the Cold War from the Soviet perspective and we start to see the push and pull that creates a clearer picture. All four books are University Press, but this is why I tend to stick with peer-reviewed University Presses. Other historians, though disagreeing with some narrative, will have given their seal of approval before going to print because of legitimacy of the sources they used and whether or not the author employed those sources within the proper method.

We may not agree (or want to) with the argument that the author makes, but if the primary sources back up the argument, then we have to consider it as a piece of the truth.
 
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