Do you support a voucher system for school choice?

America's public education system has received plenty of slack for being lackluster. Many have criticized it for falling behind other countries, dumbing down generations, and generally being inferior in quality to private schools. The problem with private schools is that parents have to pay $7,770 on average to send their kids there in contrast to public school which is funded by government (but cots $10,615 per student on average). The solution which many conservatives and libertarians support is school choice. In school choice, there are charter schools which act independently from the government but are still taxpayer funded.

What are your thoughts on school choice?

There was no other option unfortunately. I am fine with some form of voucher system so long as the rules are equal across the board. That means that if private schools take vouchers, they have to take all comers just like public schools do. They have to teach a minimum curriculum, just like public schools should. Because honestly, private schools are no better inherently than public schools, they can just throw out the bad students and pretend that their higher scores are because of their values or whatever, leaving the public schools to take in all of the dregs and look bad.

Cephus said:

There was no other option unfortunately. I am fine with some form of voucher system so long as the rules are equal across the board. That means that if private schools take vouchers, they have to take all comers just like public schools do. They have to teach a minimum curriculum, just like public schools should. Because honestly, private schools are no better inherently than public schools, they can just throw out the bad students and pretend that their higher scores are because of their values or whatever, leaving the public schools to take in all of the dregs and look bad.

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Some private schools' academic excellence is based upon more than merely being selective, but I will admit that's a significant part.

Thing is, there's plenty of parents & students who want it just like that (selective).

In my local Catholic Schools, particularly at the H.S. Prep level, the schools admonish incoming students that their seat in the school is coveted, and if they aren't going to bust their balls to work hard and be a good student-citizen, they should GTFO now and give their seat to a kid that wants to work hard but wasn't as smart that day on the admission's test.

So from the schools I'm familiar with - and the subject comes up regularly - they don't want vouchers, they don't want to be told what to do or who to take, and I can't blame them. They weed-out the incoming troublemakers in the first quarter or two, and that's just how the parents & students like it.

Cephus said:

Because honestly, private schools are no better inherently than public schools, they can just throw out the bad students and pretend that their higher scores are because of their values or whatever, leaving the public schools to take in all of the dregs and look bad.

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This, nevermind the fact that there are developed countries that feature public schools with better outcomes than even prestigious private American schools.

It would be far better to look at how public education can be improved by soberly studying the examples of other public school systems throughout the world (and locally) where the results are phenomenal, and the reasons they work so well, then attempt to reform problem schools accordingly.

Masterhawk said:

America's public education system has received plenty of slack for being lackluster. Many have criticized it for falling behind other countries, dumbing down generations, and generally being inferior in quality to private schools. The problem with private schools is that parents have to pay $7,770 on average to send their kids there in contrast to public school which is funded by government (but cots $10,615 per student on average). The solution which many conservatives and libertarians support is school choice. In school choice, there are charter schools which act independently from the government but are still taxpayer funded.

What are your thoughts on school choice?

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Our schools in Roseville are top notch. It a new, growing, middle and upper middle class area area. The schools are great. They are so great, out parish has decided not to open a second Roseville school since the one we have near Roseville is struggling because it’s hard to compete with good well run public schools.

Chomsky said:

Some private schools' academic excellence is based upon more than merely being selective, but I will admit that's a significant part.

Thing is, there's plenty of parents & students who want it just like that (selective).

In my local Catholic Schools, particularly at the H.S. Prep level, the schools admonish incoming students that their seat in the school is coveted, and if they aren't going to bust their balls to work hard and be a good student-citizen, they should GTFO now and give their seat to a kid that wants to work hard but wasn't as smart that day on the admission's test.

So from the schools I'm familiar with - and the subject comes up regularly - they don't want vouchers, they don't want to be told what to do or who to take, and I can't blame them. They weed-out the incoming troublemakers in the first quarter or two, and that's just how the parents & students like it.

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The last paragraph is an interesting take, one I had not thought of. You are right of course, if you take government money it comes with or will come with strings attached.

I think that the poll is flawed in a significant way. The no, comes with private education is bad. I would have voted no for a much different reason.

My son went to a private high school. The school has great academics, as well as activities. Beautiful campus. Teachers who are motivated and come from schools such as Yale. The year he graduated 20% of the graduating class scored 800 on the math portion of the SAT. The issue is that the school cost about $30K per year a dozen years ago. Don't know what it costs now. That being said a voucher of $10K would mean little about affordability for lower income students. Vouchers may do what student loans did. Raise the cost the school charges. Not helping parents.

there was no poll option that represents my view. i no longer support the voucher thing. i live in the state where it really took off, and it has mostly been used as a weapon against public schools.

I went to a middle quality private high school and it was way better than the public school I attended previously. It wasn't just about smoke and mirrors. Everyone who was there wanted to learn, nobody was being thrown out of class on a daily basis for misbehaving, and nobody was entitled to be there. You designed your own curriculum, you learned what you wanted to learn. You paid for the privilege. It was awesome preparation for college.

The voucher system could be a good idea if done properly. It would remove financial barriers to attending private school, so that admission could be based on other criteria like grades. The problem is that private schools don't have the same level of accountability, and with vouchers most people will try to getting into private schools. This will immediately take money away from public schools, and whoever is left that can't get into private schools will be fighting over scraps.

I don't think that letting market forces alone determine access to schools is a good idea. They're not just institutions they are also community resources. Market forces can destroy communities if they go unchecked.

The main beef people have with public schools is that quality is dropping. Well, that's because of cutbacks and bureaucracy. Standardization combined with a bloated bureaucracy is wasting a lot of money. There's also this silly notion that every child has a right to be there when some children really need specialized help (like those with learning disabilities, and yes even bullies). I believe this notion that everyone has a right to an education is bogus. If you abuse other students, attack teachers, or routinely disrupt learning environments, you should be barred from regular public school and sent to a specialized institution. There you can fulfill your "right" without infringing upon the rights of others.

My choice would be other.

Parents should be able to choose the school they send their kids rather than be locked into the district you can afford to live in. If the tax money were tied to the students and parents were able to choose which public school they send their kids you would see public schools taking a more active stance in improving the quality of education they provide.

Edit: Actually, I changed my mind on this. I think we should put something similar to the Japanese in place.

Surrealistik said:

This, nevermind the fact that there are developed countries that feature public schools with better outcomes than even prestigious private American schools.

It would be far better to look at how public education can be improved by soberly studying the examples of other public school systems throughout the world (and locally) where the results are phenomenal, and the reasons they work so well, then attempt to reform problem schools accordingly.

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Japan has a decent system, you basically have to apply to the high schools and your test scores largely determine where you go. So basically all the crappy schools get the worst students and troublemakers while the good schools bring in the students that are looking to excell.

Nap said:

Japan has a decent system, you basically have to apply to the high schools and your test scores largely determine where you go. So basically all the crappy schools get the worst students and troublemakers while the good schools bring in the students that are looking to excell.

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I'm thinking more along the lines of Finland which aims for (and achieves) superb and world-leading overall excellence in public education and minimal differences between their best and worst students as opposed to stratifying systems with a selection bias like Japan or countries with substantial private/public divisions.


Speaking more generally, as has been noted before, one of the single biggest flaws with voucher systems is the fact that they are very likely to divert resources from public education which in turn is almost certain to perpetuate any existing performance imbalance between public and private education.

Surrealistik said:

I'm thinking more along the lines of Finland which aims for (and achieves) superb and world-leading overall excellence in public education and minimal differences between their best and worst students as opposed to stratifying systems with a selection bias like Japan or countries with substantial private/public divisions.


Speaking more generally, as has been noted before, one of the single biggest flaws with voucher systems is the fact that they are very likely to divert resources from public education which in turn is almost certain to perpetuate any existing performance imbalance between public and private education.

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We have something similar to the Japanese with public magnet schools. We have one public school here in Mississippi that ranks in the top 10 nationally and routinely sends students to MIT, Harvard, and other prestigious universities that otherwise few if any Mississippi students would have had the chance. Having more schools like that where gifted students can be separated would be better for all those involved. This would allow teachers to cater the courses to the students without holding some students back or leaving the slower kids behind.

Nap said:

We have something similar to the Japanese with public magnet schools. We have one public school here in Mississippi that ranks in the top 10 nationally and routinely sends students to MIT, Harvard, and other prestigious universities that otherwise few if any Mississippi students would have had the chance. Having more schools like that where gifted students can be separated would be better for all those involved. This would allow teachers to cater the courses to the students without holding some students back or leaving the slower kids behind.

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The thing is, it's demonstrably possible to have world leading education without taking measures that exasperate/perpetuate differences in educational attainment and outcomes. However, I do agree that some level of streaming/segregation is beneficial, and I do support the academic vs vocational model per Finland (and other similar countries).

We have the best university system in the world. It's a magnet for foreign students wanting an excellent degree program. And it's effectively a voucher system. The PELL grant and/or student loans aren't restricted to public schools alone; you can take that money to virtually any qualified school. The K-12 system needs to operate like the university system does.

And I don't see why any school, public or private, should have to be saddled with students who are constantly disruptive, or just there to sell drugs, or there because a judge made them go to school. Even in the worst ghetto school it's a small percentage of students who cause 99% of the problems. Of course the law says we have to educate everybody; but it doesn't say they have the right to make an education difficult for everyone else. So put these students in a separate school set up to "meet their needs", which means they have an opportunity to get educated, and so does everyone else.

And while we're on the subject; K-12 schools should also enroll students like the universities do. Students pick the classes they want to take (with some required classes), which section of that class they want, and they pick the teacher.

BTW; at the university if no one takes your class you won't be there long.

Surrealistik said:

The thing is, it's demonstrably possible to have world leading education without taking measures that exasperate/perpetuate differences in educational attainment and outcomes. However, I do agree that some level of streaming/segregation is beneficial, and I do support the academic vs vocational model per Finland (and other similar countries).

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Was checking out some information on comparing different education systems. Finland's is great but seems to be in decline according to test scores. Singapore topped the list on Reading, math, and science on the PISA tests and it seems they are trending upward. If we are to look for a model it would appear to be theirs.

Edit: to be honest, our education system isn't that terrible. I think most of our problems is largely due to culture and teacher's unions. Mississippi was considered to be the worst when I was in school and I did pretty well on the standardized tests.

Chomsky said:

Some private schools' academic excellence is based upon more than merely being selective, but I will admit that's a significant part.

Thing is, there's plenty of parents & students who want it just like that (selective).

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And they can remain that way and pay for it. Nothing says they have to take voucher money. But if they do, then they have to play by the same rules as every other school.

In my local Catholic Schools, particularly at the H.S. Prep level, the schools admonish incoming students that their seat in the school is coveted, and if they aren't going to bust their balls to work hard and be a good student-citizen, they should GTFO now and give their seat to a kid that wants to work hard but wasn't as smart that day on the admission's test.

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Hey, I went to all religious schools, I know how they operate. You make the grades or you leave... unless your parents are rich and willing to donate to the school, then you get away with murder.

So from the schools I'm familiar with - and the subject comes up regularly - they don't want vouchers, they don't want to be told what to do or who to take, and I can't blame them. They weed-out the incoming troublemakers in the first quarter or two, and that's just how the parents & students like it.

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A lot of them don't and that's fine. They don't have to take voucher money. No problem there.

Surrealistik said:

This, nevermind the fact that there are developed countries that feature public schools with better outcomes than even prestigious private American schools.

It would be far better to look at how public education can be improved by soberly studying the examples of other public school systems throughout the world (and locally) where the results are phenomenal, and the reasons they work so well, then attempt to reform problem schools accordingly.

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I'm fine with that, but it has nothing to do with vouchers.

No. I don't see a voucher system fixing anything. Work on improving public schools rather than just encouraging the people who can to leave them.

Nap said:

Was checking out some information on comparing different education systems. Finland's is great but seems to be in decline according to test scores. Singapore topped the list on Reading, math, and science on the PISA tests and it seems they are trending upward. If we are to look for a model it would appear to be theirs.

Edit: to be honest, our education system isn't that terrible. I think most of our problems is largely due to culture and teacher's unions. Mississippi was considered to be the worst when I was in school and I did pretty well on the standardized tests.

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One of the primary issues with the Singapore education system (and indeed the education system of most Southeast Asian countries) is it very strongly teaches to the test, so it's unsurprising that it does feature better test outcomes than education systems that are also excellent but opt for a more unconventional, diverse and fully encompassing approach to education such as say Finland or Canada. That having been said, I do think they have absolutely phenomenal system in place that can be learned from, but it is certainly not the end all/be all.

As to the US education system, it does have serious problems, and though I think culture is likely a substantial component of the issue, many of those problems are likely structural in nature.

Strong teachers unions likely aren't problematic; virtually all of the countries that surpass the US have stronger teachers unions, and teachers that enjoy roundly better pay and benefits.

Cephus said:

I'm fine with that, but it has nothing to do with vouchers.

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Sure; my point is that in lieu of vouchers (which is likely to make public education even worse by diverting resources from it), we try to fix the fundamental issues with public education by studying other countries and integrating the things that work there and are workable here.

Masterhawk said:

America's public education system has received plenty of slack for being lackluster. Many have criticized it for falling behind other countries, dumbing down generations, and generally being inferior in quality to private schools. The problem with private schools is that parents have to pay $7,770 on average to send their kids there in contrast to public school which is funded by government (but cots $10,615 per student on average). The solution which many conservatives and libertarians support is school choice. In school choice, there are charter schools which act independently from the government but are still taxpayer funded.

What are your thoughts on school choice?

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I say yes assuming that the quality of education is the same or better than what the public school is providing and that the costs are no greater than what it costs the public schools per student.I don't care if the private schools want to include Jesus, Joseph Smith, the pope, Moses,Mohamed, Buddha or who ever else in their curriculum that just as long as the required school subjects are on par or better than that of public schools. The idea that kids and money should stay at failing public schools is ****ing absurd. The child's future is more important than the financial backing of a failing public school and teacher unions who make it difficult to fire bad teachers.

I would have just said no had that been an option. I am not opposed to private education, but not one penny of taxpayer money for them, particularly religious schools.

I am fine with a voucher system for students in failing school districts. If a parent has a student in a failing inner city school, a voucher for a better private school could make all the difference.

However, I am not in any way for a voucher system for students that are not in failing schools. For example, if you have your kids in a good school district, but you don't like the fact the school's biology classes teach evolution rather than creationism, then fine, take them out and put them in a private school that shares your beliefs, but the taxpayers should not be footing the bill for that.

That is the problem with vouchers as they are almost always proposed now. They talk about them as though they can be a lifeline for students in failing schools, and that is true, they can be, but their real reason for them is not to help students in failing inner city schools, it is a provide a taxpayer funded kickback to their fundamentalist religious right voters.

Masterhawk said:

America's public education system has received plenty of slack for being lackluster. Many have criticized it for falling behind other countries, dumbing down generations, and generally being inferior in quality to private schools. The problem with private schools is that parents have to pay $7,770 on average to send their kids there in contrast to public school which is funded by government (but cots $10,615 per student on average). The solution which many conservatives and libertarians support is school choice. In school choice, there are charter schools which act independently from the government but are still taxpayer funded.

What are your thoughts on school choice?

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I am absolutely in support of the voucher system.

Those who support the status quo do so because they want to maintain the current system of political reward and overpaid failure and indoctrination.

Private schools produce better results at lower costs.

The simple mismanagement of the Public School system is enough to condemn it. It rolls forward like any other government entitlement.

Move the money closer to the people and the system will change. This is true of all levels of government. This is why all levels of government oppose it.

In our country, money is power. Strip away the money and you strip away the power. Start in the local school systems and let the Revolution bubble up through Washington.

Cephus said:

There was no other option unfortunately. I am fine with some form of voucher system so long as the rules are equal across the board. That means that if private schools take vouchers, they have to take all comers just like public schools do. They have to teach a minimum curriculum, just like public schools should. Because honestly, private schools are no better inherently than public schools, they can just throw out the bad students and pretend that their higher scores are because of their values or whatever, leaving the public schools to take in all of the dregs and look bad.

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I feel you are trying to pick up all of the factors that doom this system and then apply those factors onto the alternative choices.

Why not apply the factors that make private schools successful onto the public alternatives?

If there are factors that diminish the outcomes for the majority of students, like "taking all comers", those factors need to be removed from the mainstream.

If the outcomes are based only on the make up of the students instructed as you seem to assert, then we need to change the student body to conform to what will create success. This notion also calls to question the need for higher teacher salaries.

This will certainly create a multiple tiered system and the students on the lower tiers could earn their way up or down based on their actions and academics.

Competition would demand that the lower tiered placements would want to improve their standing.

I FEEL that blaming the outcomes on the students in the classes is an easy out.

Our Public School educators and administrators claim that they are credentialed professionals with excellent skills and unique abilities AND that they cannot do any better because the students are just stupid.

Isn't it their job to make the students smarter? How can failing at your job be the justification for failing at your job. Circular Reference?

Surrealistik said:

This, nevermind the fact that there are developed countries that feature public schools with better outcomes than even prestigious private American schools.

It would be far better to look at how public education can be improved by soberly studying the examples of other public school systems throughout the world (and locally) where the results are phenomenal, and the reasons they work so well, then attempt to reform problem schools accordingly.

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Why do you assert that we do not study the processes used in the local private schools as a model?

It seems that whatever obstacles are present and overcome by the private schools' approaches might be a good model to use to overcome the same local obstacles encountered by the public school counterparts.