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Is "Believe the Victim" a good idea or a bad idea?

Is "Believe the Victim" a good idea or a bad idea?

  • Total voters
    45
jimbo said:
Rights of Accused Persons in Criminal Cases
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
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Those are for criminal charges.

Not for public opinion.

There have been no legally-imposed consequences against anyone based on a single person's public accusations alone. They have to take their accusations to the police or other legal representative.
 
Lursa said:
Those are for criminal charges.

Not for public opinion.

There have been no legally-imposed consequences against anyone based on a single person's public accusations alone. They have to take their accusations to the police or other legal representative.
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And they don't. Nevertheless lives are ruined based on these courts of public opinion.
 
jimbo said:
And they don't. Nevertheless lives are ruined based on these courts of public opinion.
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Now you're going in circles.

And lives are ruined by silence as well. And by the data...many many more than are falsely accused.

What is your alternative solution?
 
Lursa said:
Now you're going in circles.

And lives are ruined by silence as well. And by the data...many many more than are falsely accused.

What is your alternative solution?
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I'm going in circles because I'm addressing your circular posts.

My solution? These unsupported claims should should be addressed in both civil and criminal courts and damages awarded commensurate with the damage caused. The same applies for both sides.
 
Kreton said:
Saying my car was stolen and this man molested me when I was a child are not the same thing.
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We're also not talking about children, but about adults who claim, years and years after the "fact" that they were abused, conveniently during political elections, people who aren't going to the police, they are going to the press who, conveniently enough, lean politically toward the other person in the election who is losing in the polls.

Why don't you think the timing is suspicious?
 
jimbo said:
I'm going in circles because I'm addressing your circular posts.

My solution? These unsupported claims should should be addressed in both civil and criminal courts and damages awarded commensurate with the damage caused. The same applies for both sides.
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??? Nobody says they shouldnt. I the accused feel they are being accused unfairly...they have as much recourse to the legal system as their accusers.
 
Lursa said:
??? Nobody says they shouldnt. I the accused feel they are being accused unfairly...they have as much recourse to the legal system as their accusers.
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But only if they are charged in a court of law, which far too often these days, they are not.
 
Cephus said:
But only if they are charged in a court of law, which far too often these days, they are not.
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Correct. But that is the choice of both parties...accuser and accused.
 
radcen said:
Is "Believe the Victim" a good idea or a bad idea?
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I voted that it's a bad idea you shouldn't believe anyone when it comes to criminal accusations that's why we have the criminal justice system to extrapolate the truth and judge people based on evidence and facts not beliefs.

Victim complaints should absolutely be taken seriously but I think complaints that are proven to be false should carry Hefty sentences for the people who made the accusations.
 
Neither
All parties should be respectfully heard, and then ''vetted'' ..all liars should be severely punished as necessary.
 
Lursa said:
Correct. But that is the choice of both parties...accuser and accused.
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How does the unfairly accused go after their attacker in a criminal court of law when they have not been accused in a criminal court of law? It doesn't work that way.
 
Cephus said:
How does the unfairly accused go after their attacker in a criminal court of law when they have not been accused in a criminal court of law? It doesn't work that way.
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If it's not legally any kind of defamation, I guess there isnt any. That's not anything new. Men and women have always been able to do this, social media today enables it.

What's your solution?

This train of thought in general is starting to remind me of many an anti-gun thread, with it's hysteria about blood in the streets if people can, for example, carry concealed. And then over decades, no such thing happened. Or if they eliminated requiring permits to do so, which they now do in several states...still no blood in the streets.
 
Lursa said:
If it's not legally any kind of defamation, I guess there isnt any. That's not anything new. Men and women have always been able to do this, social media today enables it.
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But that's civil, not criminal. Most of these people have no money or assets to go after anyhow, so taking them to civil court really means nothing. Most people would want their false accusers to go to jail, which is not a remedy available in civil court.

What's your solution?
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That false accusations become criminal, not civil for one. Put these people behind bars. Stop allowing these charges to be aired in the court of public opinion. Of course, this would require a better class of American and a better class of journalist in the main stream media, neither of which is likely to happen any time soon.

This train of thought in general is starting to remind me of many an anti-gun thread, with it's hysteria about blood in the streets if people can, for example, carry concealed. And then over decades, no such thing happened. Or if they eliminated requiring permits to do so, which they now do in several states...still no blood in the streets.
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Because almost all of these cases are directed at the public who has very little interest in the facts behind the charges because they care more about feels than reals. This is what happens when you listen to the far political left, who doesn't care if any of it is true, they care how the charges make them feel. So long as emotions mean more than facts, we are absolutely doomed.
 
Cephus said:
But that's civil, not criminal. Most of these people have no money or assets to go after anyhow, so taking them to civil court really means nothing. Most people would want their false accusers to go to jail, which is not a remedy available in civil court.



That false accusations become criminal, not civil for one. Put these people behind bars. Stop allowing these charges to be aired in the court of public opinion. Of course, this would require a better class of American and a better class of journalist in the main stream media, neither of which is likely to happen any time soon.



Because almost all of these cases are directed at the public who has very little interest in the facts behind the charges because they care more about feels than reals. This is what happens when you listen to the far political left, who doesn't care if any of it is true, they care how the charges make them feel. So long as emotions mean more than facts, we are absolutely doomed.
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I see no issues with investigating if accusations are true or not. Civilly or criminally, as is appropriate.
 
Lursa said:
I see no issues with investigating if accusations are true or not. Civilly or criminally, as is appropriate.
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Yet tons of people on the far left just want people to "listen and believe". Facts just don't matter.

And most of these people have nothing of value to take in a civil trial. That's why they don't care if they're honest or not.
 
Only a fool would believe a sob story of victimization without investigating it further.

But then again society doesn't seem to be short of fools.
 
Cephus said:
Yet tons of people on the far left just want people to "listen and believe". Facts just don't matter.

And most of these people have nothing of value to take in a civil trial. That's why they don't care if they're honest or not.
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The goal of the MeToo movement is to bring awareness to how prevalent sexual abuse and harassment are in our society and to enable women to feel safer in coming forward to report it.

It is a starting point to stop it and to get justice through the proper channels.

I havent seen alot of abuses so far, none to evoke the hysteria some post here. Like I said...seems just like those crying 'blood in the streets' with concealed carry before any such thing occurred...and hasn't yet.

For most of these women, this is the only justice they'll get, so that 'useless' civil trial thing goes both ways.
 
Cephus said:
Yet tons of people on the far left just want people to "listen and believe". Facts just don't matter.

And most of these people have nothing of value to take in a civil trial. That's why they don't care if they're honest or not.
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Exactly, innocent until guilty. While I suppose most cases would be victim telling the truth, there have been cases, while in the minority, that have a lying "victim."
 
radcen said:
Is "Believe the Victim" a good idea or a bad idea?
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Do you have some system in mind for keeping predators from claiming victim status, after we drop evidence based prosecution? I.e. "No, she raped me and I don't have to prove a thing!"
Because whenever this comes up, I always get the uneasy feeling that some people want guilt and innocence to be determined by a comparison of the number of social victim status points the people involved have. And that those points will be arbitrarily determined by a mob of individuals who are neither particularly bright, ethical, or mentally stable.
 
Soopairik said:
Exactly, innocent until guilty. While I suppose most cases would be victim telling the truth, there have been cases, while in the minority, that have a lying "victim."
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Or that it is unknown whether the victim is lying or telling the truth, cases where it's damn convenient when the victim chooses to come forward, but where lots of people simply refuse to question the timing or the circumstances. That's what I object to.
 
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