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Me Too Movement

Do you support the Me Too movement?


  • Total voters
    63
If an adult molests a child, what evidence do you expect that child to produce? If a man in a position of power assaults a woman who evidence should she collect before getting out of there?

The point was it is just one persons accusation from years ago... it may very well be untrue. It often is. It can ruin lives. The point is we need to be careful.
 
Yet no one wants to prove that these abuses of power are actually taking place. I'm all for people who legitimately harass or attack anyone else being held legally accountable, but this isn't about legal accountability, this is about the court of public opinion who don't care if there's any evidence, they don't care if there's any legitimacy to any of these accusations, it's just a giant unsupported witch hunt done for emotional, not intellectual reasons.

One just needs to pay attention to the news over the past year - Weinstein, O'Reilly, CK, Lauer, etc. to realize that these abuses are taking place and have been for years.
 
The point was it is just one persons accusation from years ago... it may very well be untrue. It often is. It can ruin lives. The point is we need to be careful.

I do not believe it is often a lie. I get due process but if a person is accused it should be taken seriously.
 
I do not believe it is often a lie. I get due process but if a person is accused it should be taken seriously.

It should be taken seriously on both ends. The "victim" could well be lying.

...and I meant often in terms of numbers not percentages...
 
Lots of accusations with almost no evidence... not good.

Ruins lives...

Yup...not a new trend...the whole 'almost no evidence' thing has been protecting men for a long time...so now the 'victim' pool has widened.
 
One just needs to pay attention to the news over the past year - Weinstein, O'Reilly, CK, Lauer, etc. to realize that these abuses are taking place and have been for years.

Some certainly have been, as admitted by the guilty. All of them? I'm not convinced. But the court of public opinion doesn't operate on skepticism, does it?
 
Yup...not a new trend...the whole 'almost no evidence' thing has been protecting men for a long time...so now the 'victim' pool has widened.

Body cams....
 
The problem with anything like this is that once the train gets to rolling you will always get some stow-aways. What I mean is, some will make a "Me too" claim hoping to gain fame or money or both. It is sad really. So many women are being harassed or worse and they will almost certainly be diminished by the selfish false claims.
 
I've seen a few remarks about the me too movement referencing people who oppose the movement. I cannot imagine a scenario where someone can view this as a bad thing. Women are calling out sexual predators and abusers and making so that future generations won't feel the need to hide it. I decided it would probably derail the threads to ask there so gonna put it out here.

Do you support the Me Too movement?

You left me puzzled, what exactly is a me too movement. Is it if I lean right I support the politics of the right or lean left support the politics of the left? Me too in other words. I support issues that I agree with whether they come from the left or the right and oppose issues I disagree with whether they come from the left or the right. In other words, plain English, I don't let a political party determine where I stand on any issue like so many others do.
 
I've seen a few remarks about the me too movement referencing people who oppose the movement. I cannot imagine a scenario where someone can view this as a bad thing. Women are calling out sexual predators and abusers and making so that future generations won't feel the need to hide it. I decided it would probably derail the threads to ask there so gonna put it out here.

Do you support the Me Too movement?

I support the movement to a degree. But, many have taken it waaaaaaaaaaaay too far and it should not be taken in the way that mere accusations are proof of anything and should destroy someone's career or shame them or be used as a political tool against opponents (again, with no proof). We live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. And, the Hollywood left are hypocrites when they (the supposed victims) are perfectly fine with selling sex and using it to their advantage, including forwarding their careers and then hypocritically claim that they were victims.
 
I support the movement to a degree. But, many have taken it waaaaaaaaaaaay too far and it should not be taken in the way that mere accusations are proof of anything and should destroy someone's career or shame them or be used as a political tool against opponents (again, with no proof). We live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. And, the Hollywood left are hypocrites when they (the supposed victims) are perfectly fine with selling sex and using it to their advantage, including forwarding their careers and then hypocritically claim that they were victims.

The amount the pendulums swings is nearly directly proportional to how far its origin.

That 'solid' proof that you are looking for is what enabled the abuse and harassment for...ever.

This is exactly what has protected men for all that time:

it should not be taken in the way that mere accusations are proof of anything and should destroy someone's career or shame them or be used as a political tool against opponents (again, with no proof).
 
The amount the pendulums swings is nearly directly proportional to how far its origin.

That 'solid' proof that you are looking for is what enabled the abuse and harassment for...ever.

This is exactly what has protected men for all that time:

While that is true, we can't just take mere accusations of proof of anything because in the polarized times that we live it can very easily be used as a weapon. Take this hypothetical situation. We start with some background. Many on the left think that Russia (maybe in collusion with Trump or his campaign) either helped change the 2016 election results or tried influencing the 2016 election. Now let's move ahead to 2020 and let's assume that Trump is running against Bernie Sanders for the presidency. Now let's say that Russia (or in collusion with Trump or his campaign) just before the 2020 election very cleverly are able to pull off accusations against Bernie that he was a child molester or sexual abuser or harasser of females years ago. Now let's give Russia some credit for pulling off a masterful and not an obvious job. Bernie gets hung out to dry and loses the election based on false allegations and Trump wins again in 2020. Do we just hang Bernie based on false unproven allegations because the MeToo movement demands that mere accusations are enough to bring someone down, because we should just take their words for it? Again, this country is based on the premise that you are innocent until proven guilty and yet the MeToo movement demands that we find someone guilty until proven innocent. People are found guilty, even without a trial. Is this really what we want?
 
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While that is true, we can't just take mere accusations of proof of anything because in the polarized times that we live it can very easily be used as a weapon. ?

No one says we should...but historically...it has frequently been used as a weapon.

Again...it's proportional reaction. It's not justification...it's about setting expectations. Careers, lives have been ruined by sexual harassment/abuse for centuries. Now at least, we wont be (hopefully) suppressing the women who are being victimized.

An unfortunate example has been set. Not all reactions by women (and some men, such as those abused by the Catholic priests) may be appropriate...but they'll reflect the past.
 
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I've seen a few remarks about the me too movement referencing people who oppose the movement. I cannot imagine a scenario where someone can view this as a bad thing. Women are calling out sexual predators and abusers and making so that future generations won't feel the need to hide it. I decided it would probably derail the threads to ask there so gonna put it out here.

Do you support the Me Too movement?

I've discussed this on other threads, but I broadly support the Me Too Movement. That's not to say they're without tactical, structural, or messaging errors, however. But with any large scale movement, this is pretty much par for the course.

The pros of the movement are that it has pushed a spotlight onto serial sexual misconduct (harassment, assault, and even rape) in several prominent industries in America, and it's given justice to people who haven't been able to get justice any other way.

The reality is that "Women are calling out sexual predators and abusers and making so that future generations won't feel the need to hide it." is probably overstating it. Firstly, it ought to be men and women, and to some degree it has (via the downfall of Kevin Spacey). Secondly, people aren't suddenly going to not feel uncomfortable reporting sexual misconduct against them; this is part of an ongoing process to get better and better rules and procedures in place. If anything, this is most beneficial thing to come out of the Me Too movement.

The cons of the movement are that there are a lot of schools of feminism right now, and some of them very strongly disagree with one another. This is actually both a pro and a con at the same time. I think the Aziz Ansari incident was probably the best example of the real clash of worldviews between even feminists on what the movement should be trying to stop. The thing that was most interesting, to my mind, about the Aziz Ansari incident is that there was a lot of disagreement over what consent is, what assault is, who has what obligation to do what, etc. I say this is a pro and a con because it's both. It's important that, as a society, we hash out these issues, which is the pro, but the con is that it starts seriously distracting from really unambiguous and grotesque cases of sexual assault.

Another negative aspect of the movement, which it picked up from the more fanatical elements of the "SJW" movement (for want of a better term), are these kinds of warped notions that come in varying intensities, like this an issue exclusively about women; that women should be the only ones speaking; men should shut up and listen; to confusing personal problems for systemic problems. There's an element to the SJW framework that has real problems with it, because a lot of it started off as very academic jargon and has now moved into conversations that are... not that. So I'm happy people are having conversations (and even more happy that very bad people's power is being destroyed), I just sort of wish we could unshackle ourselves from the more problematic aspects of modern SJW culture while embracing the part about advancing people's rights and challenging illegitimate, harmful institutions. But that's pretty much my only issue with the movement, or at least the other critiques are just derivations on this point (i.e. the people who insist that no one should at all be concerned with false accusations).
 
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A movement to bully men.
 
Yet no one wants to prove that these abuses of power are actually taking place. I'm all for people who legitimately harass or attack anyone else being held legally accountable, but this isn't about legal accountability, this is about the court of public opinion who don't care if there's any evidence, they don't care if there's any legitimacy to any of these accusations, it's just a giant unsupported witch hunt done for emotional, not intellectual reasons.

Yeah, there is only more than 60 women accusing Weinstein of sexual abuse. We need at least 100
 
The point was it is just one persons accusation from years ago... it may very well be untrue. It often is. It can ruin lives. The point is we need to be careful.

I cannot think of anyone whose life has been ruined by one persons accusation from years ago. Can you?
 
Yeah, there is only more than 60 women accusing Weinstein of sexual abuse. We need at least 100

I don't care how many are accusing, I want to see evidence. Where is it?
 
I cannot think of anyone whose life has been ruined by one persons accusation from years ago. Can you?

Potentially... anecdotedly... 100%.
 
So when you hear women coming out to discuss harrassment and assault you assume they are bang wagon hopping, exaggeration, posturing, attention seeking, virtue signalling or a combination of some or all of these?

That's my wife's default assumption unless and until there is evidence to the contrary. I could not possibly comment.
 
That's my wife's default assumption unless and until there is evidence to the contrary. I could not possibly comment.

No offense, but your wife's an idiot. It's her attitude that's allowed people like Larry Nassar to get away with despicable behaviour for ****ing decades.
 
Yeah, there is only more than 60 women accusing Weinstein of sexual abuse. We need at least 100

No. What you need is evidence.

That's the way our justice system works. The number of accusers is less important than actual evidence. You'd fit right in with the people who hanged witches back in Salem because a number of young girls pointed their fingers and accused the women of witchcraft. Or the young girls who pointed fingers at men of color around the turn of the last century, which sent the KKK out in force to lynch the accused.

Has history taught you nothing at all?
 
I've seen a few remarks about the me too movement referencing people who oppose the movement. I cannot imagine a scenario where someone can view this as a bad thing. Women are calling out sexual predators and abusers and making so that future generations won't feel the need to hide it. I decided it would probably derail the threads to ask there so gonna put it out here.

Do you support the Me Too movement?

I wasn't really aware that it was a movement I know it's a Twitter trend
 
No offense, but your wife's an idiot. It's her attitude that's allowed people like Larry Nassar to get away with despicable behaviour for ****ing decades.

Incorrect. To assume that someone is not guilty until proved guilty in a court of law is the foundation of our justice system.

Our society demands it.
 
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