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So Now That It Is Happening, Who Is To Blame For Shutdown?

Who is to blame for the shutdown?

  • Total voters
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Lutherf said:
Democrats across the board, main stream media and the Russians.

Democrats get blame because they keep pushing DACA (which many Republicans are fine with) while refusing to agree to any kind of boarder security. Bottom line, they want amnesty and open borders and they're willing to shut down the government to get their way.

The MSM gets blame because most of them have become nothing more then the propaganda arm of the Democrat party. The level of objectivity we see in the MSM is roughly equivalent to the gravitational field of an M&M.

The Russians get blame because they are the ones who installed Trump in the White House and everything is their fault.
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The republicans could have put up a DACA vote at any time in the last few months...
 
Grand Mal said:
So they're politicians, aren't they? Let them get political. Jesus, my biggest beefagainst Obama was that he wasn't a good enough politician to overcome Congress being stacked against him. He couldn't work the crowd like more accomplished lame-duck presidents before him did. Now here's Trump and the Republican Party and you're saying they're, what, handcuffed by an insufficient majority in the Senate?
Know what's going to happen? The Republican Party is going to squander the opportunity of a generation. They're going to lose their majorities and settle back into the more comfortable position of opposition, having proven themselves to be incapable of governing.
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I don't blame Obama for failing to work with the Tea Party and its descendants, because they literally refused to work with him. There isn't a universe where Ted Cruz concedes a single issue to Barrack Obama, even if it made Ted Cruz a billion dollars on the spot.

But I do blame him for a good portion of his predicament. Obama (and Hillary Clinton, Debbie Wasserman Schultz. and the DNC consulting firms) are like 99% of the reason why Democrats lost 1,200 local seats, the Senate 50% of the time, and the House 75% of the time, got to less than a third of all gubernatorial races, etc, etc.

If you take 99% of the national party funding and spend it exclusively on your two presidential runs and let consulting firms treat the DNC like an ATM: Firstly how do you expect to have any allies to work with? Secondly with what leverage are you intending to use on them? Just stupidly greedy, honestly.
 
reinoe said:
Could you elaborate on what Trump has to do with a bill written in the legislature?
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Because he says "I will sign XXX". And then the next day says, "I will not sign XXX". Legislation is just words on paper without his official OKEEDOKEE. No one can work to a goal when the goal keeps changing. You'd think a business genius would know that, but oh well.
 
Chomsky said:
Fair enough.

But the GOP House is responsible for a budget. They haven't delivered. They're sending temp CRs! I think it's more than fair to say, "Enough is enough! Do your damn job!".
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There's no arguing that.
 
Chomsky said:
Yes, but what I see is a lack of Presidential leadership.

Did you see how pissed Graham was, after his hard work with Durbin was torn-up by Trump? After Trump gave him specific details and goals? Crafting inter-party compromise legislation is a really difficult task. Besides just the time, work, & energy used, a lot of reputation and political capital is expended. These legislative bodies need leadership and direction, as to what the President desires and is willing, or not willing, to sign into law. And thy need him to be consistent in his actions, and to keep his word.
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Yes, which is why I lay the primary blame directly at Trump's feet. He's incompetent and ignorant; worse, he enjoys being incompetent and ignorant.

People voted for a childish, narcissistic bully, who won't read anything past one short sentence, totally unqualified and temperamentally unfit... and they are surprised that's exactly what they got??? :slapme:
 
trblmkr said:
Because he says "I will sign XXX". And then the next day says, "I will not sign XXX". Legislation is just words on paper without his official OKEEDOKEE. No one can work to a goal when the goal keeps changing. You'd think a business genius would know that, but oh well.
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Then let Congress sign the bill and then Trump can either veto it and take responsibility or pass it and take responsibility. That's how the three branches of government work. You're twisting yourself into knots to blame Trump for CONGRES NOT PASSING A BILL. Congress didn't do their jobs.
 
beefheart said:
The republicans could have put up a DACA vote at any time in the last few months...
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Any agreement on DACA has to be tied to border security. We went this route in 1986 by providing amnesty for illegal aliens already in the country. The trade off to that was supposed to be increased border security but congress never funded the security part. The result was amnesty plus a precedent for not enforcing the laws. Democrats rolled Reagan just like they're trying to roll Trump.
 
Democrats are really treasonous towards America as whole.

For a Government that's supposed to be "By the people, for the people" you have a political party that's wanting to shut down
a government that is funded by LEGAL CITIZEN TAXPAYERS to cater to a small group of illegal immigrants. They are putting those
here illegally, ahead of Citizens, and the military. "Give us 1,600,000 new voters or we aren't passing this bill!" Democrats - 2017

How can they seriously argue their point with a straight face?
 
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reinoe said:
Then let Congress sign the bill and then Trump can either veto it and take responsibility or pass it and take responsibility. That's how the three branches of government work. You're twisting yourself into knots to blame Trump for CONGRES NOT PASSING A BILL. Congress didn't do their jobs.
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You're saying this in order to absolve the President of his feckless sabotage. The conclusion you reach is true.

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slick said:
Most of the Republicans voted not to shut down the government & most of the Democrats voted to shut it down the
government yet you're fingering the Republicans for blame. IMO that's poorly reasoned commentary!
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The republicans hold the house, the senate and the white house. If they cannot govern with this majority, why should anyone believe they can govern at all? Are they so unable to negotiate deals , unable to attain compromises, unable to reach agreements, that nothing can get done unless they have absolute power?
Then they have proven themselves to be unacceptable. Unworthy of the post they have been appointed to. They should resign and leave some high school student to do their job.
 
Fiddytree said:
DACA is like 13/15 in priorities for American voters, despite the wide approval. Dems still face an uphill battle for both the House and especially the Senate, because of red districts with blue seat holders.

So, no, this isn't just about Dems needing to make their base feel good.

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It may not be the entirety of the motivation by Democrats, but it has a lot to do with it.

It might be an uphill battle for the Democrats in 2018, but it was an uphill battle for the GOP in 2010, so too was it for Trump in 2016. Now the trend is reversing and red districts are seeing massive Democratic turnout, with huge upsets in special elections -- including the victories in Virginia and Alabama.

The iron is the hottest it's been for Democrats since 2006-2008, there is an opportunity to truly make massive gains in the Congress. Rewarding Republicans for taking CHIPS and DACA hostage, is a fast way to kill the momentum, and further enable more Republicans games going forward.
 
MovingPictures said:
It may not be the entirety of the motivation by Democrats, but it has a lot to do with it.

It might be an uphill battle for the Democrats in 2018, but it was an uphill battle for the GOP in 2010, so too was it for Trump in 2016. Now the trend is reversing and red districts are seeing massive Democratic turnout, with huge upsets in special election -- including the victories in Virginia and Alabama.

The iron is the hottest it's been for Democrats since 2006-2008, there is an opportunity to truly make massive gains in the Congress. Rewarding Republicans for taking CHIPS and DACA hostage, is a fast way to kill the momentum, and further enable more Republicans games going forward.
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Several Democratic Senators concluded they did have plenty to lose. And they were right.

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DiAnna said:
Yes, which is why I lay the primary blame directly at Trump's feet. He's incompetent and ignorant; worse, he enjoys being incompetent and ignorant.

People voted for a childish, narcissistic bully, who won't read anything past one short sentence, totally unqualified and temperamentally unfit... and they are surprised that's exactly what they got??? :slapme:
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I fear this is a harbinger of what could be, if we ever had to face a crisis as a nation.

So this guy shut-off the lights in his office, and flew down to his mansion for his big party? Think about that! :doh
 
Lutherf said:
Any agreement on DACA has to be tied to border security. We went this route in 1986 by providing amnesty for illegal aliens already in the country. The trade off to that was supposed to be increased border security but congress never funded the security part. The result was amnesty plus a precedent for not enforcing the laws. Democrats rolled Reagan just like they're trying to roll Trump.
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No, it doesn't. They could pass DACA only right now.
 
reinoe said:
Then let Congress sign the bill and then Trump can either veto it and take responsibility or pass it and take responsibility. That's how the three branches of government work. You're twisting yourself into knots to blame Trump for CONGRES NOT PASSING A BILL. Congress didn't do their jobs.
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I'm not twisting myself into knots. I don't claim to be a great negotiator. You are right, congress should just put something in front of him to sign and then it's on him. But it would seem they want to put something in front of him that he will sign, only they don't know what that is.
I don't know why they are worried. They already look like idiots and whether he signs something or not they still look like idiots. And when Trump signs or doesn't sign he will say something stupid and look like an idiot too.
 
Fiddytree said:
You're saying this in order to absolve the President of his feckless sabotage. The conclusion you reach is true.

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I have no idea what you're talking about. Trump is not part of the legislature and therefore cannot sabotage anything.
 
Lutherf said:
Any agreement on DACA has to be tied to border security. We went this route in 1986 by providing amnesty for illegal aliens already in the country. The trade off to that was supposed to be increased border security but congress never funded the security part. The result was amnesty plus a precedent for not enforcing the laws. Democrats rolled Reagan just like they're trying to roll Trump.
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True, and I agree.

But the real problem here, is the failure of the GOP House in providing a budget. These things should be in a budget, and debated and passed using regular order. It's not getting done. There's been no regular order. There's been no budget addressing these issues. Rather, there's only been temporary continuing resolutions not addressing anything at all. Quite honestly, I see legislative negligence.
 
reinoe said:
I have no idea what you're talking about. Trump is not part of the legislature and therefore cannot sabotage anything.
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Dontcha just love it when these guys want to give the President all of the credit, but none of the responsibility or, should it come, the blame?

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slick said:
Most of the Republicans voted not to shut down the government & most of the Democrats voted to shut it down the
government yet you're fingering the Republicans for blame. IMO that's poorly reasoned commentary!
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Republicans are in charge, and still you blame the Democrats. Is there any way that Democrats aren't the cause of Republican incompetence?
 
I don't really think anyone is to blame... there is a deep disagreement about illegal immigration... One side thinks people should be able to break the law and encourage people to break the law in the future... the other side doesn't...

They are certainly responsible for each others positions. The shutdown isn't surprising...
 
Grand Mal said:
Republicans are in charge, and still you blame the Democrats. Is there any way that Democrats aren't the cause of Republican incompetence?
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You do realize that the Republicans needed 60 votes to continue to fund the government so they needed 9 more votes than they
have senators they only have 51. On the Tax bill all they needed were 50 Republican votes because of reconciliation procedures.
No democrats voted with the Republicans on the tax bill & none in the republican attempt to end Obama care, they bunkered down
as the 'resistance' movement.

Look Trump is not going to give the democrats all they want concerning DACA, maybe he'll bend a little but the idea is to make sure we
don't go down this DACA road again in 5 years. The Democrats are used to getting all they want during the Bush years & of course
Obama's years. Trump won primarily on ending open borders & I doubt he'll budge much, giving 800,000 illegals legally is a big concession.

Having a by-partisan deal with the Republican being Lindsey Gramnesty is no by-partisan deal at all. You used the phrase Republican incompetence.
Republican incompetence IMO would have been to cave in & give the opposition the deal Gramnesty authored.
 
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Chomsky said:
Trump unilaterally tore up DACA, earlier in the year.

Trump last week, indicated he'd take a specific bipartisan deal. Lindsey Graham then fashioned said deal, and brought it to Trump on a platter. Trump summarily tore the deal up.

Trump instigated this mess. Twice.
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DACA is not a budget matter at all. There is no DACA bill to vote on. There has not been a federal budget passed on time in the last two decades.
 
Grand Mal said:
Republicans are in charge, and still you blame the Democrats. Is there any way that Democrats aren't the cause of Republican incompetence?
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Count the votes - which party voted (mostly) to fund the government and which party voted (mostly) not to?
 
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