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Is it All that Difficult to Enter the Middle-Class or Above in the Current US System?

Is it All that Difficult to Enter the Middle-Class or Above in the Current US System?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 31.3%

  • No

    Votes: 18 56.3%

  • Other

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Total voters
    32
Wonder how many people who say its easy, even though the facts show otherwise, were already born into middle class, and is white? Already have an advantage. Yes, people do it, but often they are extraordinary. They may be brilliant, be talented or have skills, be a very hard workers, got breaks that allowed them to succeed, maybe had a mentor or a strong family to push them. Others might not be born intelligent, may be poor and malnourished, live in areas with poor schools, not have good parents, got with the wrong crowd, be a minority and face discrimination, not have any talents or skills.

This isn't 1950's america, the reality is there is limited mobility. How can there be when 1% own 90% of all the wealth in this country? No longer can a high school graduate get a factory job and raise a family. People are working multiple jobs and still living in poverty. Those who may not be highly skilled and intelligent could have a family with a house, a car, and be the sole income earner working at a factory. Not much of that is happening anymore.
 
Sampson Simpson said:
Wonder how many people who say its easy, even though the facts show otherwise, were already born into middle class, and is white? Already have an advantage. Yes, people do it, but often they are extraordinary. They may be brilliant, be talented or have skills, be a very hard workers, got breaks that allowed them to succeed, maybe had a mentor or a strong family to push them. Others might not be born intelligent, may be poor and malnourished, live in areas with poor schools, not have good parents, got with the wrong crowd, be a minority and face discrimination, not have any talents or skills.

This isn't 1950's america, the reality is there is limited mobility. How can there be when 1% own 90% of all the wealth in this country? No longer can a high school graduate get a factory job and raise a family. People are working multiple jobs and still living in poverty. Those who may not be highly skilled and intelligent could have a family with a house, a car, and be the sole income earner working at a factory. Not much of that is happening anymore.
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Which of these is hard?

Not have kids before marriage
Graduate high school
Get a job

The facts show that 98% of people that follow those simple steps accomplish it. Maybe we disagree on the difficulty of those steps?
 
xMathFanx said:
Is it All that Difficult to Enter the Middle-Class or Above in the Current American System?

Regardless of race, gender, class background, family structure/background, ect. ect, is it all that difficult to enter the Middle-Class or above in the current American system. That is, is there any genuine need to live a life of poverty in America (for an extended period of time--on the scale of decades)?

Note: The Middle-Class in 2016 defined by Pew Research Center was those earning 67-200% of the median income (per household), or $39,560-$118,080.

(Due to character restrictions, see my longer post immediately following the construction of this debate in order to give members more "food for thought" on the matter)
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It definitely can be, but all it takes are simple mistakes, and some bad luck to make things very difficult. These days in order to get decent jobs you often need a college education which can come with student loans that make those wages not all they are cracked up to be. Furthermore you might be able to make 40-50k living in some major cities fairly easily, but the cost of living there will make those wages feel quite stagnent.

I'm a software developer. Someone who should have about as easy a go of things as you can ask for. My first job out of college still only paid about $30k, and that was before the crash. I had about $30k in student loans I was paying off to go with it. At this point I've more than doubled my salary but I've had to move to a larger city with a relatively high cost of living to do it. The combination of those two things has made it so I'm still basically living paycheck to paycheck. Within a few years I hope to be almost entirely out of debt, and in really good shape, but at that point I'll be behind in saving for retirement, and I still won't have a decent down payment saved up for a house.

People with wealthy parents who were able to help them pay for college, and keep them out of initial debt have a massive advantage, but that's not a high percentage of the population so yeah it can be very difficult. If software developers are barely getting ahead you know it can't be super easy for everyone else.
 
xMathFanx said:
From there, PhD programs are free, in fact, they pay you a stipend to attend.

1. There is a clear hierarchy in Academia, and it is wise to understand the "Game" in order to best play it
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That's all lovely, but you're talking about going to college for almost a decade after high school before you're finally able to enter the workforce. That's a hard thing to ask of many people, and it's a bit ridiculous just to get into the middle class. Phds should be the the high end elite not something you need just to buy a house and get by.
 
It is harder in the US to move up the income scale than it is in Canada or most european countries. Based on where your parents were. Here is an article from the Fraser Institute, a quite conservative think tank in Canada

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/social-mobility-alive-and-well-canada



Consider the results from a 2012 study, Measuring Income Mobility in Canada, which used Statistics Canada data to track a sample of a million Canadians from 1990 to 2009 to see how their incomes change. The study put individual tax filers into five income groups (from lowest to highest income) with each group comprising 20 per cent of the total.

Over the 19-year period, 87 per cent of Canadians initially in the bottom income group moved to a higher group. Put differently, almost nine out of every 10 Canadians who started in the bottom 20 per cent had moved out of low-income.

Of those from the bottom 20 per cent in 1990 that moved up, an almost equal proportion moved into each of the four higher groups. Remarkably, two of every five Canadians in the bottom income group in 1990 ended up in the top 40 per cent of income earners by 2009.

These findings are consistent with other research based on Statistics Canada data.

And a growing body of research shows that Canadian families are financially mobile over generations.
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http://ftp.iza.org/dp1993.pdf

Is one from Statscan

A quality education, and good health care is essential for it to occur in my opinion.
 
Sampson Simpson said:
Wonder how many people who say its easy, even though the facts show otherwise, were already born into middle class, and is white?
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?? Did you read my 2-Part post that is fundamental to this Thread/discussion? As I addressed the canards you are promoting here in quite thorough detail (and can get far more detailed with it if you like). In fact, as I explained, it isn't all that difficult at all for a person who is reasonably savvy at "playing the American Game" to reach the Middle-Class or higher (or achieving essentially any reasonable life-career goal). I would like to see you marshal an argument against my main 2-part post rather than make (essentially) blind assertions.

Sampson Simpson said:
How can there be when 1% own 90% of all the wealth in this country?
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This topic, although certainly worthy of discussion, is orthogonal to the matter at hand
 
MrWonka said:
That's all lovely, but you're talking about going to college for almost a decade after high school before you're finally able to enter the workforce. That's a hard thing to ask of many people, and it's a bit ridiculous just to get into the middle class. Phds should be the the high end elite not something you need just to buy a house and get by.
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Right, but that is simply one concrete path amongst others I provided (such as entering a Trade School which is only 1-2 years on average and costs only $1000-$10,000 on average) that would lead one toward the Middle-Class or above. What are your thoughts on this front?
 
MrWonka said:
It definitely can be, but all it takes are simple mistakes, and some bad luck to make things very difficult. These days in order to get decent jobs you often need a college education which can come with student loans that make those wages not all they are cracked up to be. Furthermore you might be able to make 40-50k living in some major cities fairly easily, but the cost of living there will make those wages feel quite stagnent.
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Agreed. Note, this is also why I am discussing this issue on the scale of decades to a lifetime rather than periods of one's life (as there are bound to be rather rough patches for the average person/overwhelming bulk of the population at times). Also, I'm not suggesting that the Middle-Class don't have their own monetary problems--they do. Rather, there is no real need for a person not to be able to achieve Middle-Class or above status at some point in their life (based on the current system)
 
Basically what Tammerlain said.

SWA-Mobility | Figure 3H | Intergenerational correlations between the earnings of fathers and sons in OECD countries | State of Working America

Intergenerational Income Mobility

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/59310/1/__...ings_Blanden_Cross-national rankings_2014.pdf

It's possible to move to the middle class in America, but with considerably more difficulty than doing so in other more progressive countries on average, and there's substantial room for improvement; the advantages of initial wealth, and disadvantages of poverty are notable and considerable; about the only developed countries with worse intergenerational mobility are possibly the UK and Italy.

In terms of intragenerational mobility, the prognosis is also poor.
 
Surrealistik said:
Basically what Tammerlain said.

SWA-Mobility | Figure 3H | Intergenerational correlations between the earnings of fathers and sons in OECD countries | State of Working America

Intergenerational Income Mobility

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/59310/1/__...ings_Blanden_Cross-national rankings_2014.pdf

It's possible to move to the middle class in America, but with considerably more difficulty than doing so in other more progressive countries on average, and there's substantial room for improvement; the advantages of initial wealth, and disadvantages of poverty are notable and considerable; about the only developed countries with worse intergenerational mobility are possibly the UK and Italy.

In terms of intragenerational mobility, the prognosis is also poor.
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I don't disagree with any of this--until your final statement. That is, yes, "Equality of Opportunity" is far from optimal at the moment in the US & there is plenty of room for improvement (I actually discussed a method to achieve this rather easily in my 2-part post), however there is enough "Equal Opportunity" to allow mobility to the Middle-Class or above in one's lifetime without too much difficulty (above that of most people in the middle to lower range of Middle-Class income family backgrounds)
 
xMathFanx said:
I don't disagree with any of this--until your final statement. That is, yes, "Equality of Opportunity" is far from optimal at the moment in the US & there is plenty of room for improvement (I actually discussed a method to achieve this rather easily in my 2-part post), however there is enough "Equal Opportunity" to allow mobility to the Middle-Class or above in one's lifetime without too much difficulty (above that of most people in the middle to lower range of Middle-Class income family backgrounds)
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The Rich, the Right, and the Facts: Deconstructing the Inequality Debate

Btw, 'poor' as a prognosis is relative, not absolute; compared to other developed countries, yes, intragenerational mobility prospects are poor in America because such countries do much more to safeguard and bolster them; equality of opportunity substantially affects intra as well as intergenerational mobility.
 
Surrealistik said:
Btw, 'poor' as a prognosis is relative, not absolute; compared to other developed countries, yes, intragenerational mobility prospects are poor in America because such countries do much more to safeguard and bolster them; equality of opportunity substantially affects intra as well as intergenerational mobility.
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I'm not attempting to argue that the US is the superior model in this regard, rather I am stating that although certainly highly flawed, the current US system is consistent with mobility to the Middle Class or above without much difficulty for a reasonably savvy individual.
 
holbritter said:
You do not need a college education to make it into the middle class. It depends on what you are interested in doing with your life. There are trades that are very lucrative to get into. College isn't for everyone.
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Yep. I don't have college education, but I'm now a software developer (OJT BABY!!). I'm proficient in C#, VBA, getting pretty good at HTML, SQL, SSRS, Crystal Reports, etc.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That (bolded above) assertion means that acquiring the amazing skill of being able to wield a basic hand tool (or two) will get you hired at $24/hour ($192/day or $50K/year). I offer to pay my help about half that and have no difficulty finding (basic hand tool qualified) takers.
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Fair point. You won't start at $50k just knowing which end of a screwdriver connects to the head of the screw in any trade that I know of, and I should have been more specific in my post to prevent that interpretation.
 
xMathFanx said:
The potential to enter a Trade School & thus Profession was central to my argument (in my larger 2-part post).
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Missed that in your post, I blame low coffee levels. Can't possibly be my poor reading skills.
 
Nuber said:
Fair point. You won't start at $50k just knowing which end of a screwdriver connects to the head of the screw in any trade that I know of, and I should have been more specific in my post to prevent that interpretation.
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You seem to be addressing what it takes to simply break out of poverty rather than what it takes from that point to become even lower middle class. The OP was concerned with making (middle?) middle class or better.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You seem to be addressing what it takes to simply break out of poverty rather than what it takes from that point to become even lower middle class. The OP was concerned with making (middle?) middle class or better.
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The trades in general are a path to get out of poverty and beyond. I oversimplified this process with my screwdriver/hammer comment. It is more complicated than that to be sure.

I work in the trades, have for over two decades. Getting in to the trades is easy in Colorado, we currently have massive personnel shortages around here (and have for a while). You can get a laborer job on a construction site that pays $10.20 an hour (state minimum wage); formal trade starting salary is a little higher with a little more aptitude required. You can get to $50k from there in a couple of years depending on the choices you make.

Start in the trades you're making $20K a year, not poverty. In fact you could start anywhere and make $20k, demonstrate some tool skills and you are magically more qualified and higher paid. This is where my tool comment comes from.

Learn a few skills, impress your boss, your making $25 to $30K in 12 to 18 months.

Take a 2 year state test, get a certification, your making $40k in 2-3 years. Are you middle class yet?

Get a journeyman license or HVAC certification now your making $50k in 4 years. You are certainly middle class now.

Keep at it, learn to estimate or manage big jobs, now your making $75k in 5-6 years. You are making more than the median household income all by your self, you big success story, you.

Get a contractors license, start out on your own, struggle a bit, be business savvy, your making $100K in 8 years. You are wealthy now, start getting used to being called a deplorable profit monger.

No college, no trade school, on the job training and some studying on the side takes you where you want to go (screwdriver not included).
 
Koke said:
Entering the middle class for all races and genders is relatively easy if the proper procedure is followed. Don't have kids until you're married, acquire a high school degree, and find a full time job. If you do these three things you will not be in poverty.
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Nap said:
It is incredibly easy to reach middle class. No kids before marriage, graduate high school, get a job. 98% of people that follow those steps break out of poverty.
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A friend of mine from high school did all of that and more. He served in the Army and got a college degree. During most of his adult life he has worked at two jobs. He could probably put all of his belongings in to his old car that is dying of old age. Minimum wage jobs are not entry level positions. They are dead ends.
 
A middle aged person who loses a middle class job is likely to find that his skills are not transferable, and that if he goes back to school employers do not want to hire a middle aged person for a job he has not earned a salary in.
 
Koke said:
Ultimately, in my opinion, the biggest issue is not the economy itself but a loss of culture and values.
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An economy thrives when a culture and values are established as the foundation of the governmental and market system.
 
xMathFanx said:
Rather, there is no real need for a person not to be able to achieve Middle-Class or above status at some point in their life (based on the current system)
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That's not really a worthy goal and doesn't matter. If you're struggling to the age of 70 just to get to a point where you're not living paycheck to paycheck it doesn't really do you any good because now you're too old to save money for retirement.

The real question that needs to be asked is whether or not it's harder today than it was yesterday to achieve economic stability. I'd have to say that without question it was easier 30 years ago than it is today.
 
xMathFanx said:
Right, but that is simply one concrete path amongst others I provided (such as entering a Trade School which is only 1-2 years on average and costs only $1000-$10,000 on average) that would lead one toward the Middle-Class or above. What are your thoughts on this front?
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It can. That's not really a guarantee though. Often times those trade schools will teach you a specific skill, but in the modern world, some of those skills can get out of date really quickly.
 
MrWonka said:
It can. That's not really a guarantee though. Often times those trade schools will teach you a specific skill, but in the modern world, some of those skills can get out of date really quickly.
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I believe there are requirements to keep up with actually (I would have to look into it more though). Also, the point is, there is nothing stopping any-one individual from going to Trade School for Electrician or Plumbing under Government provided loans that fully cover the expenses (and more) for 1-2 years, earning the certificate/degree and then making a solid income of (on average) $50,000--which earns them a spot in the Middle Class

Edit: It is not as though if you were a member of a "minority" group, this function somehow wouldn't be available to you--it would (it is available to all US Citizens with a G.E.D. or High School Diploma (referring to Government Student Loans)).
 
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Nap said:
Which of these is hard?

Not have kids before marriage
Graduate high school
Get a job

The facts show that 98% of people that follow those simple steps accomplish it. Maybe we disagree on the difficulty of those steps?
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This is so simple minded. All of those things are hard, as we see people have kids when they don't want to (even when using birth control), graduating high school means nothing these days as far as being successful and being able to get a job so that's irrelevant, and getting a job is not easy either, as there has been unemployment.

And even doing all those things, they pay for most jobs isn't there, you are working and still are in, or very close to, poverty
 
MrWonka said:
That's not really a worthy goal and doesn't matter. If you're struggling to the age of 70 just to get to a point where you're not living paycheck to paycheck it doesn't really do you any good because now you're too old to save money for retirement.

The real question that needs to be asked is whether or not it's harder today than it was yesterday to achieve economic stability. I'd have to say that without question it was easier 30 years ago than it is today.
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That might just be from the amazing fact that the more competition that one faces (more folks competing for the same number of "good" jobs) then the harder it is to rise to the top. Another factor is that we have more large companies (corporations) which have fewer top positions relative to their bottom positions. If six mom & pop companies get replaced by one big box store then there are more worker bees per queen bee.
 
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