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Is There A Moral Equivalence Between Communists and Fascists?

Is there a moral equivalence between communists and fascists? Are both groups of people bad people?

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SeAnThOmAs

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Is is fair to say that communists are as morally bad as fascists? Both ideologies can be attributed to the murders of millions of people, yet there are significant differences in the goals and tenants of each ideology.
 
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People living in communes (actual communists) aren't hurting anyone.

Fascism, by definition, can't make the same claim.
 
I think it's safe to say utilizing mass murder to achieve any political goal, regardless of ideology, is reprehensible.

It's hard to say for certain. We have several examples of communist nations, including the USSR and PRC, which both committed massive crimes to achieve their desired political endgames. Those killed by communist regimes number close to 90 million.

The most prominent example of fascism we have is Nazi Germany, who certainly committed their fair share of atrocities in the name of their ideological system. Lord knows how many more would've fallen victim to the SS and the Gestapo had Nazi Germany actually won the Second World War.

I tend to find individual Communists less troubling than Fascists, simply because most Communists I've encountered are just naive and obsessed with "workers equality". Most Fascists I've encountered on the other hand seem to be more arduous in their nationalist and authoritarian beliefs.

If I had to pick, I'd say Fascism is worse, if just for no other reason than Communism, as a socio-economic theory, demands certain economic requirements that tend to lead to financial trouble and decline, in essence giving any communist regime a "shelf-life" before their centrally planned economy leads them down the path of ruin. Fascists on the other hand are more vague on economic matters and a bit more flexible/adaptable when it comes to such matters.

But that's just me.
 
SeAnThOmAs said:
Is is fair to say that communists are as morally bad as fascists? Both ideologies can be attributed to the murders of millions of people, yet there are significant differences in the goals and tenants of each ideology.
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No it's not.
For one thing, morality is a purely subjective judgement. Any declaration of moral judgement needs to be preceded by, "In my opinion..."
For another, you'd be trying to pass judgement on individuals based on what others have done years in the past. A communist today is no more at fault for Joe Stalin than an American is for Andrew Jackson and the Indian Removal. If you can name for me an ideology or religion with a blameless history, I'll be surprised.
 
SeAnThOmAs said:
Is is fair to say that communists are as morally bad as fascists? Both ideologies can be attributed to the murders of millions of people, yet there are significant differences in the goals and tenants of each ideology.
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From a government standpoint both seek to control people and limit liberty. Both seek to empower the collective over the individual and drive out any that oppose their goals so in that aspect I consider them equal and why I oppose both.
 
Depends on the flavor of communism. In theory communism can be fine. In practice so far it has had horrible result. But even in the best possible theoretical scenario, fascism seems horrible to me.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
I think it's safe to say utilizing mass murder to achieve any political goal, regardless of ideology, is reprehensible.

It's hard to say for certain. We have several examples of communist nations, including the USSR and PRC, which both committed massive crimes to achieve their desired political endgames. Those killed by communist regimes number close to 90 million.

The most prominent example of fascism we have is Nazi Germany, who certainly committed their fair share of atrocities in the name of their ideological system. Lord knows how many more would've fallen victim to the SS and the Gestapo had Nazi Germany actually won the Second World War.

I tend to find individual Communists less troubling than Fascists, simply because most Communists I've encountered are just naive and obsessed with "workers equality". Most Fascists I've encountered on the other hand seem to be more arduous in their nationalist and authoritarian beliefs.

If I had to pick, I'd say Fascism is worse, if just for no other reason than Communism, as a socio-economic theory, demands certain economic requirements that tend to lead to financial trouble and decline, in essence giving any communist regime a "shelf-life" before their centrally planned economy leads them down the path of ruin. Fascists on the other hand are more vague on economic matters and a bit more flexible/adaptable when it comes to such matters.

But that's just me.
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Ya I would agree. I posted this thread after watching a Sargon of Akkad video, where he was advertising a shirt that said "communists are bad people". I thought that that was a lazy and dishonest message. Yes, communism arguably led to the holodomor, the Gulags, and the killing fields, but there are communists who themselves are disgusted by those things. My aunt and uncle used to be communists. I don't think that they are bad people simply for being perhaps misguided politically. Most communists get into communism because of the message of egalitarianism. Lord knows why anyone would get into fascism. Anyways, Sargon of Akkad makes many videos where he essentially says that communism is equally bad as fascism. I disagree.
 
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Grand Mal said:
No it's not.
For one thing, morality is a purely subjective judgement. Any declaration of moral judgement needs to be preceded by, "In my opinion..."
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If morality is subjective, then it is perfectly valid for me to claim that one ideology is as bad an the other.
For another, you'd be trying to pass judgement on individuals based on what others have done years in the past. A communist today is no more at fault for Joe Stalin than an American is for Andrew Jackson and the Indian Removal. If you can name for me an ideology or religion with a blameless history, I'll be surprised.
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A communist today is probably worse than those past devils because the commie of today has the advantage of history and chooses to ignore it.
 
Nap said:
From a government standpoint both seek to control people and limit liberty. Both seek to empower the collective over the individual and drive out any that oppose their goals so in that aspect I consider them equal and why I oppose both.
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Yes, if you are talking about the communism that was actually implemented in places like Russia, China, etc...
 
Fletch said:
If morality is subjective, then it is perfectly valid for me to claim that one ideology is as bad an the other.
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Okay, but you know that you'd be neither right nor wrong, just stating your opinion, right?
And if I didn't misread the OP, it referred to communists and fascists in moral terms, not the ideologies, and went on to imply that the morality of the adherents was a result of the history of the ideologies.

Fletch said:
A communist today is probably worse than those past devils because the commie of today has the advantage of history and chooses to ignore it.
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So what should they do, rename their political philosophies?
 
ISMs are translated by their leaders. There is nothing fixed or non adjustable. Benevolent leadership is not the luxury of any specific system or ISM. I personally think Fascism/Corporatism is the worst of the lot because it operates from GREED, no social, moral, ethical values and simply uses up resources with no responsibility for predictable negative lifeform impacts.
/
 
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DaveFagan said:
ISMs are translated by their leaders. There is nothing fixed or non adjustable. Benevolent leadership is not the luxury of any specific system or ISM. I personally think Corporatism is the worst of the lot because it operates from GREED, no social, moral, ethical values and simply uses up resources with no responsibility for predictable negative lifeform impacts.
/
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Maybe greed IS a social, moral or ethical value in this day and age.
 
Grand Mal said:
Okay, but you know that you'd be neither right nor wrong, just stating your opinion, right?
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And you disagreeing is simply you stating your opinion. So if you want to stick to your idea that morality is subjective, then there is no objective moral claim that either Nazism or Communism is bad.
And if I didn't misread the OP, it referred to communists and fascists in moral terms, not the ideologies, and went on to imply that the morality of the adherents was a result of the history of the ideologies.
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Well, I don't know how you divorce the communist or the fascist from the ideology. For me both are ba din equal terms because both are totalitarian in nature and deny the concept of individual rights. Not sure you can argue that it was somehow better to be a Ukranian under Stalin than it was to be a Jew under Hitler.
 
Grand Mal said:
Maybe greed IS a social, moral or ethical value in this day and age.
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It's difficult to be greedy if you don't have anything, ergo it is the province of the .01%, eh? The haves that want everything. I do not relate to Greed as I WANT. The 99.99% want, but to satisfu needs, not greeds.
/
 
Fletch said:
And you disagreeing is simply you stating your opinion. So if you want to stick to your idea that morality is subjective, then there is no objective moral claim that either Nazism or Communism is bad.
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Okay. Morality is subjective. So we know not to make it a discussion point.


Fletch said:
Well, I don't know how you divorce the communist or the fascist from the ideology. For me both are ba din equal terms because both are totalitarian in nature and deny the concept of individual rights. Not sure you can argue that it was somehow better to be a Ukranian under Stalin than it was to be a Jew under Hitler.
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I agree about the histories of the ideologies being pretty much equal in terms of suppressing the things I think are the only reason for government to exist- my personal rights. And I for sure don't want to get into an argument about quantifying evil, "I'll see your Ukrainian famine and raise you the Killing Fields!" But blaming a communist today for Pol Pot or even for the persecution of the Falun Gong in China is not far from blaming a Catholic for the Inquisition or blaming an Englishman for the Highland Clearances. If the communist in the university needs to answer for Stalin, do you need to pay reparations for slavery?
I agree both communist and fascist are deluding themselves if they think either ideology could be a viable basis for a nation but neither person is morally wrong for wanting to try.

edit- morality being subjective, the last sentence needs, "In my opinion." attached to it. Beginning, end, you pick.
 
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Grand Mal said:
Okay. Morality is subjective. So we know not to make it a discussion point.




I agree about the histories of the ideologies being pretty much equal in terms of suppressing the things I think are the only reason for government to exist- my personal rights. And I for sure don't want to get into an argument about quantifying evil, "I'll see your Ukrainian famine and raise you the Killing Fields!" But blaming a communist today for Pol Pot or even for the persecution of the Falun Gong in China is not far from blaming a Catholic for the Inquisition or blaming an Englishman for the Highland Clearances. If the communist in the university needs to answer for Stalin, do you need to pay reparations for slavery?
I agree both communist and fascist are deluding themselves if they think either ideology could be a viable basis for a nation but neither person is morally wrong for wanting to try.
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I think the bolded is where we disagree most. Anyone who supports an ideology of any kind that survives by supressing the rights of the individual is advocating an evil doctrine. So they are morally wrong for 'wanting to try.' Any modern advocate of fascism or communism should be universally rejected out of hand. Both ideologies have demonstrated themselves to result in such incomprehensible evil, death and human suffering as to render any advocate of either system to the **** house.
 
Fletch said:
I think the bolded is where we disagree most. Anyone who supports an ideology of any kind that survives by supressing the rights of the individual is advocating an evil doctrine. So they are morally wrong for 'wanting to try.' Any modern advocate of fascism or communism should be universally rejected out of hand. Both ideologies have demonstrated themselves to result in such incomprehensible evil, death and human suffering as to render any advocate of either system to the **** house.
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Alright then...
 
KevinKohler said:
People living in communes (actual communists) aren't hurting anyone.

Fascism, by definition, can't make the same claim.
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A common misconception is that communism is evil because Stalin and Mao killed millions. Good to know some people know the truth.
 
Fletch said:
Well, I don't know how you divorce the communist or the fascist from the ideology. For me both are ba din equal terms because both are totalitarian in nature and deny the concept of individual rights. Not sure you can argue that it was somehow better to be a Ukranian under Stalin than it was to be a Jew under Hitler.
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Perhaps the difference is that anti-semetism and racial hierarchy is a core philosophy of (german) fascism, and therefore those who are fascist must on some level sympathies with the persecution of jews.
Communism on the other hand, mentions nothing of the necessity to persecute Ukrainians, and therefore one can both be a communist and also be vehemently apposed to what Stalin did in the Holodomor.
 
SeAnThOmAs said:
Perhaps the difference is that anti-semetism and racial hierarchy is a core philosophy of (german) fascism, and therefore those who are fascist must on some level sympathies with the persecution of jews.
Communism on the other hand, mentions nothing of the necessity to persecute Ukrainians, and therefore one can both be a communist and also be vehemently apposed to what Stalin did in the Holodomor.
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The problem is that both ideologies place the state, or the Fatherland or the Motherland or the Fuhrer or the collective ahead of the individual. So if you must die so that others live, so be it. In that regard, both are evil and indistinguishably so.
 
Soopairik said:
A common misconception is that communism is evil because Stalin and Mao killed millions. Good to know some people know the truth.
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A 'good' form of communism can only exist within the context of a free society. If you and your friends and other like minded individuals want to live and work communally, I don't care so long as I am free to not join. The problem with making an entire nation communist is that those who wish to not join have to be imprisoned or put to death. You cant have individuals running around doing what they want in a communist state. That is why they all are repressive tyrannies. There is no way around it.
 
Fletch said:
A 'good' form of communism can only exist within the context of a free society. If you and your friends and other like minded individuals want to live and work communally, I don't care so long as I am free to not join. The problem with making an entire nation communist is that those who wish to not join have to be imprisoned or put to death. You cant have individuals running around doing what they want in a communist state. That is why they all are repressive tyrannies. There is no way around it.
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Yes, exactly. Thanks for summing it up.
 
Fletch said:
The problem is that both ideologies place the state, or the Fatherland or the Motherland or the Fuhrer or the collective ahead of the individual. So if you must die so that others live, so be it. In that regard, both are evil and indistinguishably so.
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They are indistinguishable in that they are both collectivist. However dismissing both groups as "collectivist", in my opinion, ignores other important differences.
 
Fletch said:
A 'good' form of communism can only exist within the context of a free society. If you and your friends and other like minded individuals want to live and work communally, I don't care so long as I am free to not join. The problem with making an entire nation communist is that those who wish to not join have to be imprisoned or put to death. You cant have individuals running around doing what they want in a communist state. That is why they all are repressive tyrannies. There is no way around it.
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I agree, the question was though, whether communists are as bad as fascists as people.
 
SeAnThOmAs said:
Is is fair to say that communists are as morally bad as fascists? Both ideologies can be attributed to the murders of millions of people, yet there are significant differences in the goals and tenants of each ideology.
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No. Not only is there not a reason to compare the two on a moral basis, to ask the question deflects from the underlying real question in the face of sensationalist fear mongering American politics as immoral all on its own.

Economics has no morality. The men and women who make political systems dressed under a guise of economics are at the onset immoral, because at that onset they are being dishonest. Greed, no matter the subterfuge of ideologies inclusive of religions, is the true cause of nationalistic killings and war. So cut the dishonest nonsense and your own dishonesty in asking a sensationalist question for the purpose of raising fear in the minds of your fellow citizens, question your own morality in asking the greater moral question of yourself before asking others their perceptions of morality.
 
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