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Are you tired of the perpetual state of war the US is in?

Are you tired of the constant state of war?

  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
Cardinal said:
Nobody but the Kremlin recognizes the legitimacy of that vote. See, here's the problem with autocrats: they tend to be highly narcissistic, and can't bear the perception of opposition even where it provide the imprimatur of legitimacy. That's why every dictator in every "election" wins with about 100% of the vote. Their ego just won't allow them to go with ~65% of the vote.
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It doesn't matter who or who doesn't recognize the vote. There's nothing showing that the vote was illegitimate. And there's no proof that Putin is an autocrat.

Edit: Could you please address the topic now?
 
The Lurker said:
There is no proof that Vladimir Putin had a hand in those murders. I'm sure there are many people dying in Russia as we speak, just like there are many people dying in the United States. And as for Crimea, given the overwhelming vote to remain in Russia, I think that should be respected. Regardless, the presence of Russian Federation troops does not invalidate the vote.
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You're speaking from your experience of living with 24/7 propaganda in Russia. In America, critics of the President don't spontaneously end up dead or in prison. Oh, I'm sure you'll find some examples because, as you say, people die. But the frequency with which this happens in dictatorships is on quite another level.
 
The Lurker said:
And the Crimeans' democratic vote should still be upheld. I don't think there's any proof of foul play in the vote.
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Did you forget? I've lived in Ukraine. The 'referendum' was printed in three languages. Russian, Ukrainian, and Tatar.

The 'referendum' contained two choices. They both led to the same outcome (annexation). All that changed was the process/timescale.
 
Cardinal said:
You're speaking from your experience of living with 24/7 propaganda in Russia. In America, critics of the President don't spontaneously end up dead or in prison. Oh, I'm sure you'll find some examples because, as you say, people die. But the frequency with which this happens in dictatorships is on quite another level.
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I don't live in Russia.

And there is nothing showing that Putin ordered people to be killed. And neither is Russia a dictatorship.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Did you forget? I've lived in Ukraine. The 'referendum' was printed in three languages. Russian, Ukrainian, and Tatar.

The 'referendum' contained two choices. They both led to the same outcome (annexation). All that changed was the process/timescale.
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It doesn't matter that you lived in Ukraine. Anybody can have a different point of view. And I'm pretty sure people did indeed vote against the referendum.

Edit: But again, this has nothing to do with the topic. I think this is getting out of hand.
 
The Lurker said:
I don't live in Russia.

And there is nothing showing that Putin ordered people to be killed. And neither is Russia a dictatorship.
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Maybe not in name.........
 
cuban smokes said:
the so called "war on terror" was designed to last a minimum of a half century; we already know this

'the people' had not a goddamn thing to do with this 'war on terror' ........... it was set-up by a very few of our 'so called leaders' ...............
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Endless war and military occupation of foreign lands serves the interests of the Wall Steet/donor/"job creator" class. This economic system will fold without it. The petro dollar must be defended at any cost.
 
 
The Lurker said:
And the Crimeans' democratic vote should still be upheld. I don't think there's any proof of foul play in the vote.
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And some further information for the good folks on this board. The Constitutions of both Ukraine and Crimea (ARC) stated that any change in the status of Crimea had to be approved by the Ukraine Constitutional Court and also approved by a national referendum in Ukraine.

How can 2% of the people (Crimea) unilaterally decide the fate of land that belongs to 100% of all Ukrainians (Crimea)?
 
Cardinal said:
Right.



Right. People who criticize or oppose Putin just have the worst luck on earth.



Right.

https://www.politico.eu/article/russian-opposition-leader-barred-from-running-in-2018-election/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...remlin-for-election-ban-idUSL2742825920080127
Putin Just Banned One Of Russia's Opposition Parties From The Next Big Election - Business Insider
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I really don't live in Russia. And unless you have something backing up Putin ordering people to have others killed, then this is a moot topic. Wasn't Alexei Navalny barred due to embezzlement? Either way, I don't trust what the mainstream media has to say about Russia.
 
Rogue Valley said:
And some further information for the good folks on this board. The Constitutions of both Ukraine and Crimea (ARC) stated that any change in the status of Crimea had to be approved by the Ukraine Constitutional Court and also approved by a national referendum in Ukraine.

How can 2% of the people (Crimea) unilaterally decide the fate of land that belongs to 100% of all Ukrainians (Crimea)?
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It's a complicated issue, but I believe in the right to self-determination.
 
The Lurker said:
It's a complicated issue, but I believe in the right to self-determination.
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I told you some days ago that it was only a matter of time until you outed yourself.
 
Rogue Valley said:
I told you some days ago that it was only a matter of time until you outed yourself.
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Outed myself as what? You aren't explaining yourself.


Like I've said before, I hope that we can get along, but if you aren't going to address the topic, I think I'll have no choice but to report you.
 
cuban smokes said:
Eisenhower made his farewell/MIC speech on January 17, 1961, a mere twelve days before I was born. I have always been a bit miffed as to why Ike signed off on Operation AJAX; his words from January 1961 do not back him up on his actions, in that regard. Just another POTUS that talks **** & does something else .................
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You know I'm fairly progressive, and I've spoken many times about how wrong we were to overthrow the Iranian government in 1953. As much as I disagree with Jack Hays on almost everything, I have to admit that - if he's on the up-and-up, and in this he may well be - he's got a level of experience in that particular part of the world that very few of us can approach. IIRC, he said that at the same time, the USSR was also agitating for a coup (or something along the same lines) in Iran, that our choice was either for us to do it, or to allow the USSR to do so...and so have access to all the oil.

So looking at things from a realpolitik point of view, AJAX may actually have been - in Eisenhower's eyes - a matter of pragmatism. The problem is, of course, that by doing so, we rightly engendered generations of ill will from the Iranian people. Eisenhower - if I understand him rightly - probably realized this, but job #1 of every president from Truman to Bush 41 was to win the Cold War without it turning hot.
 
The Lurker said:
We have an ongoing "War on Terror" that seems to have no end in sight. The Pentagon recently confirmed that we've got troops in Yemen. We had a proxy war in Syria that we lost. We're sending arms to Ukraine. There might be a war with North Korea for all we know. It seems that the people in power, be they Democrat or Republican, want the US to get involved in wars or to start wars.

Quite frankly, this is but one of the reasons why I don't consider Democrats and Republicans to be different from one another.

Interesting video on North Korea by the way.

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Perhaps we're involved in skirmishes all over the globe nowadays. Certainly no big war is going on at the moment. No WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam or even Desert Storm. Iraq and Afghanistan, we're there, but with few troops. Syria really wasn't a war with us. We bombed some, tried to overthrow Assad, that failed. ISIS seems defeated in Syria and Assad is going to stay in power. That is as it should be in my opinion. I never thought we should try to overthrow Assad. Heck, I thought the second Iraq war was unjustified. Afghanistan was different, them harboring UBL and all.

That was a smart war in the beginning. A few SF and paramilitary on the ground, our air power and the Northern Alliance doing the fighting on the ground. Nice. Nation building, that's were we went wrong. We forced democracy upon a group of people who didn't want it. All they wanted was to go back to their tribal lands and be ruled by tribal elders and shamans or the Islamic priests whatever they are.

A few troops anywhere to help defeat terrorist, I'm fine with that be it Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq or even Syria. I don't think we ought to force ourselves on other nations. Only if asked. I do think we should stop being the worlds policemen. There are parts of the world in which we could withdraw, other parts, some we are needed. We need someone to make wise decisions on this.

Perhaps we ought to be glad there isn't a major intervention or war going on. War isn't pretty. A few troops here and there just might be worth it if they prevent another major war. I do think way too many of us now look upon war as they do a video game. That is dangerous. There's a fine line between appeasement, peace at any cost and being a war mongrel.

If I had my way, there wouldn't be a war without a total and full declaration of war from congress. I don't mean a UN resolution or an resolution authorizing military force either. A resolution is nothing more than an opinion. I want a full and total declaration. Either put this nation on a war footing with all that entails or no war.
 
Perotista said:
Perhaps we're involved in skirmishes all over the globe nowadays. Certainly no big war is going on at the moment. No WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam or even Desert Storm. Iraq and Afghanistan, we're there, but with few troops. Syria really wasn't a war with us. We bombed some, tried to overthrow Assad, that failed. ISIS seems defeated in Syria and Assad is going to stay in power. That is as it should be in my opinion. I never thought we should try to overthrow Assad. Heck, I thought the second Iraq war was unjustified. Afghanistan was different, them harboring UBL and all.

That was a smart war in the beginning. A few SF and paramilitary on the ground, our air power and the Northern Alliance doing the fighting on the ground. Nice. Nation building, that's were we went wrong. We forced democracy upon a group of people who didn't want it. All they wanted was to go back to their tribal lands and be ruled by tribal elders and shamans or the Islamic priests whatever they are.

A few troops anywhere to help defeat terrorist, I'm fine with that be it Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq or even Syria. I don't think we ought to force ourselves on other nations. Only if asked. I do think we should stop being the worlds policemen. There are parts of the world in which we could withdraw, other parts, some we are needed. We need someone to make wise decisions on this.

Perhaps we ought to be glad there isn't a major intervention or war going on. War isn't pretty. A few troops here and there just might be worth it if they prevent another major war. I do think way too many of us now look upon war as they do a video game. That is dangerous. There's a fine line between appeasement, peace at any cost and being a war mongrel.

If I had my way, there wouldn't be a war without a total and full declaration of war from congress. I don't mean a UN resolution or an resolution authorizing military force either. A resolution is nothing more than an opinion. I want a full and total declaration. Either put this nation on a war footing with all that entails or no war.
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"Either put this nation on a war footing with all that entails or no war."

Never gonna happen, that's not how we are any longer.
 
Fenton Lum said:
"Either put this nation on a war footing with all that entails or no war."

Never gonna happen, that's not how we are any longer.
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Well of course not, because's that's a stupid idea.
 
The Lurker said:
I honestly don't know. You aren't explaining yourself.
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Well, let's put it simply.

The Russian occupation of Crimea was a blatant, illegal seizure of territory from Ukraine. There was no binding or objective referendum for annexation. Russia seized Crimea to preserve it's naval presence on the Black Sea and maintain it's strategic standing in the region.

Now, I'll grant you this: Anyone who says we should've gone to war over Crimea, or something to that nature, is an idiot. The Russians made it abundantly clear that they saw Ukraine as the line in the sand, and that if the West tried to cross it, Moscow would retaliate with all the weapon's in it's arsenal.

People may bitch and whine about the Obama Administration's decisions in Eastern Europe, but the fact is that no one in American was willing to lose American lives over Ukraine. No one gave a **** about Kiev until Euromaiden.
 
Cardinal said:
Yeah, that "vote" happened after Russia already took over Crimea. And we all know how fair and democratic Russia's elections are. Not surprisingly, "the legitimacy of the referendum has been questioned by the international community on both legal and procedural grounds."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation

So bull**** "vote" aside, what gives Russia the right to take over other countries?
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What gives ANY country the right to take over another country? Yet history is replete with examples where just that has happened.
 
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