Does God love you?[W:925]

Re: Does God love you?

Elvira said:

You're here, aren't you? He could have destroyed the first human pair and none of us would be here...He has given you chance for life hasn't He? All you have to do is prove yourself worthy of life...

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But if God is omnipotent, he should be able to predict our every move and know some of us will never be "worthy"

Re: Does God love you?

Hatuey said:

Let's say I have a cat. That cat is attacked by a raccoon. I could technically step in, and kick the raccoon's ass so hard it goes off to raccoon hell or heaven. However, because I love my cat, and to show him my love, and why he should be devoted to me, I will simply stand by, watch as he's viciously attacked by the raccoon.

That's essentially what you're saying here. You are the cat, god is your owner, the raccoon are the wicked. As you are attacked by the wicked, he just stands by because he loves you and does nothing.

Is that what you call love? There aren't enough words I can use to point out the lunacy in your religious opinions.

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There are not enough words to point out the small mindedness of your thinking...there is a much grander scheme of things than you are not willing to even consider...try looking at the big picture...if you can...

Re: Does God love you?

Elvira said:

There are not enough words to point out the small mindedness of your thinking...there is a much grander scheme of things than you are not willing to even consider...try looking at the big picture...if you can...

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Ah, yes - the god is so big that you just can't understand why he allows his followers to suffer argument.

Well Elvira, now that you've decided to start addressing my posts again, what is that "much grander scheme of things" that I am not willing to even consider? Is it even relevant? The cat is not able to consider a grander scheme of things beyond immediate necessity. It doesn't understand that I have to work to make sure his food is there. It doesn't understand that the roof over its head was put there by me. It doesn't understand how the electricity keeping him warm works. It's all irrelevant though.

I'd never let my cat be attacked by a raccoon because of some master plan to make him understand why he should love me. That's essentially what you are justifying here. That if you are suffering, and so are others, it's because there is some master plan to show you 'love' and a bright light at the end of the suffering. If a human being did that to another, it would be called sadism, honey.

Re: Does God love you?

Hatuey said:

Is that what matters? Is a Christian who only believes a man made of the same flesh and bones as them walked on water, any better than one who believes 2 people led to a population of 6 billion?

I have no problem with people believing in a historical Jesus, as long as they keep it all in perspective. He was an influential man of his time, who challenged Roman control of 1st century Palestine, but unlike 100s of others at the same time, his memory remained strong among his follows. A 100 years later, a entire sequence of myths had been built around that memory to support claims of divinity.

If that's what you believe in, congratulations, you have my respect and I would never question your beliefs. If you come up to me, and then tell me that what I need to understand is people walking on water, turning water into wine, curing the sick by waving a hand, or some other such nonsense, then you shouldn't be surprised if you are met with questions. Okay, so granted, you aren't as literal as Elvira who doesn't understand simple genetics and the relationship it has with population growth.

Are you any better if you pick and chose between the parts about men walking on water, seas parting, people being swallowed by animals and surviving or guys being taken up to heaven in chariots?

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I don't feel it has to be either/or. That too is an oversimplification. Religion, spirituality and philosophy are more complex than that, at least mine is. We're all just living out an experience through different facets. If someone is asking the deep questions about their place in the universe and the nature of reality and that somehow leads them to a framework involving Jesus, I can't really fault them. People are at where they're at.

I agree nobody can force their beliefs on you, which is why I don't understand why you're so offended. Okay, on a political level there can be real threats to freedom, but on an individual every-day level it has little to do with you. They could put you in a prison camp and you could still maintain conscience of faith about what you do and don't believe.

When people get offended over belief or non-belief, it's unfortunate that they don't question where the offense is really coming from -- inside of themselves.

Re: Does God love you?

LesGovt said:

Nice try! Children have free will, but they have yet to possess the ability to differentiate their actions from the consequences. I am sure that you are not a toddler, so you can differentiate, if you want.

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Thank you. You just made my argument a lot easier. We can cut to the chase.

Yes most adults have the ability to differentiate their actions from the consequences. But why exactly are there any consequences for not believing in your god? There is no rational reason that a god would need the organisms that it created to believe anything about it. As soon as a god is portrayed as petty enough to need recognition it is no longer a god. The problem is that every god created by humans has that fatal flaw in their stories. Christianity/Islam is built around that flaw of reason.

Humans can indeed differentiate things much better than a toddler. But you would be as naive as a toddler to believe the BS that is in the Holy Bible. Those consequences that you are speaking of were designed to hold each and every believer hostage to their desire to live forever. As long as you dont want to die and become nothing, you will continue believing in whatever religion best offers you that promise in your opinion. And every human that stands in your way of that promise you will attack as vile as possible because you do not want those consequences to happen to you.

Its called spiritual blackmail. Christianity is holding your soul as blackmail for your unthinking devotion. Christianity promises to give your soul eternal life if you spread the system artifact to all reaches of the planet. And if you do not do your duty your soul will burn forever in a treacherous hell created by a god. Yes we can differentiate, well at least some people can who actually have a choice to differentiate their actions from the consequences. Everyone else cannot differentiate their actions from the consequences since they are too busy being blackmailed for their soul.

Re: Does God love you?

God would have to know that I am here for he/she to love me.........

Re: Does God love you?

Northern Light said:

I don't feel it has to be either/or. That too is an oversimplification. Religion, spirituality and philosophy are more complex than that, at least mine is. We're all just living out an experience through different facets. If someone is asking the deep questions about their place in the universe and the nature of reality and that somehow leads them to a framework involving Jesus, I can't really fault them. People are at where they're at.

I agree nobody can force their beliefs on you, which is why I don't understand why you're so offended. Okay, on a political level there can be real threats to freedom, but on an individual every-day level it has little to do with you. They could put you in a prison camp and you could still maintain conscience of faith about what you do and don't believe.

When people get offended over belief or non-belief, it's unfortunate that they don't question where the offense is really coming from -- inside of themselves.

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There are a lot of words in your posts that mean absolutely nothing. In essence, you are rehashing the same transcendental nonsense as Elvira with the sole difference being that you have even less evidence to support your point of view than Elvira does. You are one acid trip away from realizing that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Why? Because at least she can go 'my particular book says so!', you're just going 'well, it's because I think so'. None of this proves her views anymore than it does yours.

The only part where you actually made sense is in your belief that religious beliefs can be a realistic threat to freedom. We've seen it as gays have to spend millions in court cases for the right to visit their significant others. We have seen it as Muslims are denied the right to build Mosques because Christians say so. We even saw it when the founders had to create a constitution outlining freedom of religion because of fears that religious persecution would be come a thing here just like it did in Europe.

We have seen that people like Elvira, people who believe that if you are gay you go to hell, and if you want to define your gender as a man, having been born with female genitalia, you also go to hell, and then put those beliefs into law, are in fact dangerous. But that doesn't change the fact that there is no realistic difference between believing only certain parts of the fable, and not others then expecting not to be asked questions.

Re: Does God love you?

Hatuey said:

There are a lot of words in your posts that mean absolutely nothing. In essence, you are rehashing the same transcendental nonsense as Elvira with the sole difference being that you have even less evidence to support your point of view than Elvira does. You are one acid trip away from realizing that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

Why? Because at least she can go 'my particular book says so!', you're just going 'well, it's because I think so'. None of this proves her views anymore than it does yours.

The only part where you actually made sense is in your belief that religious beliefs can be a realistic threat to freedom. We've seen it as gays have to spend millions in court cases for the right to visit their significant others. We have seen it as Muslims are denied the right to build Mosques because Christians say so. We even saw it when the founders had to create a constitution outlining freedom of religion because of fears that religious persecution would be come a thing here just like it did in Europe.

We have seen that people like Elvira, people who believe that if you are gay you go to hell, and if you want to define your gender as a man, having been born with female genitalia, you also go to hell, and then put those beliefs into law, are in fact dangerous. But that doesn't change the fact that there is no realistic difference between believing only certain parts of the fable, and not others then expecting not to be asked questions.

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You're too offended to really talk to. My knowledge is not based on any book, just inner inquiry. I don't care what you do. Go be free. Be free to believe what you want or be offended/delighted at what works for you. The path to inner inquiry can only lead to love and through that love it's not hard to understand where most people are coming from, even the people you disagree with. Behind every creed is a real human need and that's really all people are fighting about -- their needs.

Yes there are real political consequences to non-questioning belief, to lack of compassion. I don't feel that religion or non-religion justifies cruelty. It's lack of inner inquiry that generates hatred, nothing else. People use ancillary beliefs to justify their ignorance and righteousness but it's all a smoke screen for their deep insecurity about the unanswered questions of their existence. If it were just about religion then all the non-religious people would be loving but we know that they're not. Some of the biggest tyrants in history have been atheists. The problem is the human heart itself and the people who turn away from it.

Re: Does God love you?

chuckiechan said:

As many people who have tried to kill me accidentally or otherwise, and the times I almost killed myself, I'd say "Yeah, God loves me".

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So he prefers you then over others he allows to be murdered, die in accidental deaths, or kill themselves?

Re: Does God love you?

SouthernDemocrat said:

So he prefers you then over others he allows to be murdered, die in accidental deaths, or kill themselves?

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Apparently.

Re: Does God love you?

Soopairik said:

But if God is omnipotent, he should be able to predict our every move and know some of us will never be "worthy"

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Nobody will ever be worthy, you have to kiss God's ass to get into heaven. That's because God didn't give Adam and Eve moral agency until they had already sinned against him and therefore, we're all damned. God is a dick and there are some people who want us to bow down to this moral monster.

Pass, thanks.

Re: Does God love you?

Hatuey said:

We have seen that people like Elvira, people who believe that if you are gay you go to hell, and if you want to define your gender as a man, having been born with female genitalia, you also go to hell, and then put those beliefs into law, are in fact dangerous. But that doesn't change the fact that there is no realistic difference between believing only certain parts of the fable, and not others then expecting not to be asked questions.

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Goes to show...you have no idea what I believe so you're just rambling...I do not believe there is a burning hell...hell is merely the grave, so therefore everyone goes to hell when they die...
why don't you put down that broad brush and actually listen to other people for a change instead...

Re: Does God love you?

Cephus said:

Nobody will ever be worthy, you have to kiss God's ass to get into heaven. That's because God didn't give Adam and Eve moral agency until they had already sinned against him and therefore, we're all damned. God is a dick and there are some people who want us to bow down to this moral monster.

Pass, thanks.

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Ummm, where does the Bible say that?

Re: Does God love you?

Elvira said:

Ummm, where does the Bible say that?

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What tree did Adam and Eve eat from again?

Re: Does God love you?

Cephus said:

What tree did Adam and Eve eat from again?

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It was only a tree...a tree intended to give Adam and Eve an opportunity to demonstrate their love for Him by being obedient...the knowledge they gained was by eating from it, they then realized that they had been disobedient to God...there was nothing mystical about the tree itself...it had no powers...:roll:

Re: Does God love you?

Elvira said:

It was only a tree...a tree intended to give Adam and Eve an opportunity to demonstrate their love for Him by being obedient...the knowledge they gained was by eating from it, they then realized that they had been disobedient to God...there was nothing mystical about the tree itself...it had no powers...:roll:

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But you're avoiding the question. What was the name of the tree? It's in your own book, can't you answer a simple question?

Re: Does God love you?

Cephus said:

But you're avoiding the question. What was the name of the tree? It's in your own book, can't you answer a simple question?

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It was called “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” do you even understand what that means? Let me explain it to you...it means before eating of the tree, Adam and Eve had only experienced good...they did not know what bad was, because they had never experienced bad...after eating from the tree, they knew, all too well, what bad was...they were living it because of their disobedience...

Re: Does God love you?

FreedomFromAll said:

Thank you. You just made my argument a lot easier. We can cut to the chase.

Yes most adults have the ability to differentiate their actions from the consequences. But why exactly are there any consequences for not believing in your god? There is no rational reason that a god would need the organisms that it created to believe anything about it. As soon as a god is portrayed as petty enough to need recognition it is no longer a god. The problem is that every god created by humans has that fatal flaw in their stories. Christianity/Islam is built around that flaw of reason.

Humans can indeed differentiate things much better than a toddler. But you would be as naive as a toddler to believe the BS that is in the Holy Bible. Those consequences that you are speaking of were designed to hold each and every believer hostage to their desire to live forever. As long as you dont want to die and become nothing, you will continue believing in whatever religion best offers you that promise in your opinion. And every human that stands in your way of that promise you will attack as vile as possible because you do not want those consequences to happen to you.

Its called spiritual blackmail. Christianity is holding your soul as blackmail for your unthinking devotion. Christianity promises to give your soul eternal life if you spread the system artifact to all reaches of the planet. And if you do not do your duty your soul will burn forever in a treacherous hell created by a god. Yes we can differentiate, well at least some people can who actually have a choice to differentiate their actions from the consequences. Everyone else cannot differentiate their actions from the consequences since they are too busy being blackmailed for their soul.

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The child still has the free will to go wherever he can go, His parents have free will too and they can stop him from doing something reckless. Now, as far as why there are consequences, it is because God provides the rules. You can follow or not. The choice is yours. But, since there is no God, in your world, why would you care? I am beginning to think that many non-believers really wish they could believe so they could avoid consequences. It is very easy to believe when you soften the hard heart. I know this from personal experience.

Re: Does God love you?

Elvira said:

It was called “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” do you even understand what that means? Let me explain it to you...it means before eating of the tree, Adam and Eve had only experienced good...they did not know what bad was, because they had never experienced bad...after eating from the tree, they knew, all too well, what bad was...they were living it because of their disobedience...

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So they had no idea that disobeying God was bad. They had no moral compass. And your God is holding them accountable for things they could not possibly have known and is now punishing all of humanity because he screwed up.

Of course, you'll never admit that.

Re: Does God love you?

Cephus said:

So they had no idea that disobeying God was bad. They had no moral compass. And your God is holding them accountable for things they could not possibly have known and is now punishing all of humanity because he screwed up.

Of course, you'll never admit that.

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He told them the ONE and only thing they could not do and He also told them what would happen if they did so...God does not lie, unlike some parents do with idle threats...

Re: Does God love you?

Elvira said:

He told them the ONE and only thing they could not do and He also told them what would happen if they did so...God does not lie, unlike some parents do with idle threats...

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And they had no way of knowing that they were supposed to do what God wanted because they specifically lacked that knowledge. They didn't know it was wrong.

Re: Does God love you?

Cephus said:

And they had no way of knowing that they were supposed to do what God wanted because they specifically lacked that knowledge. They didn't know it was wrong.

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He told them it was wrong...what more did they need to know? :2brickwal

Re: Does God love you?

Elvira said:

He told them the ONE and only thing they could not do and He also told them what would happen if they did so...God does not lie, unlike some parents do with idle threats...

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You speak as if it was a true story. It's a myth.

Re: Does God love you?

Elvira said:

He told them it was wrong...what more did they need to know? :2brickwal

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Why it was wrong? That is the first question that one would think of.

Re: Does God love you?

If you look at the allegories across all religions there are so many similarities. Some Christians don't like to hear this because they like to think they're in possession of the only real knowledge. The whole tree thing just represents the beginning of duality. It could've easily have been Adam who ate the fruit, it doesn't really matter. Knowledge is the beginning of the illusory separateness from God. Before duality there is only oneness with God, then you learn that you're a you and the self-constructions become never ending. But it starts with the primacy that God is out there somewhere and I am here.

The modern translations of the Bible make it difficult to understand this but if you look at the direct transliterations of the original Koine it shares a lot of similarity with the Irrational Third in many eastern faiths. We are born shapeless, formless, unknown to ourselves. We are just pure consciousness. Then the first stimulus begins, then the awareness that here is something experiencing the stimulus (I, here) and that it comes from out there, then the constructs begin. The division happens before we even have the cognitive development to realize we're doing it, and before long we are living in a life-long rabbit hole of our creation. We spend our whole lives trying to reunite with ourselves through externalized grasping, like material things, relationships, career, etc... but we're just trying to undo the original separation.

Most scholarly essays on the Garden I've read, including some put out by the Vatican, talk about this. I wish some American Christians could see beyond their own particular view and look at what the whole world of Christian scholarship is talking about these days. Some of it is very inspirational, profound material.