View Poll Results: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

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Thread: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

  1. #331
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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco Montana View Post
    Ali was an egotistical, arrogant racist! Probably the most racist toward his own race!
    Why do you say that? He certainly called out a few Black people he considered to be hypocrites, but he certainly wasn't racists against his own.

    Egotistical...I'll give you that, but when you're the Heavy Weight Champion of the World 3 times, I think you earned the right to have an inflated ego especially when you back up your claims.
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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Had it been conscious objection it would have been great. But “I ain’t got no quarrel...” was not a legal nor was it a sufficient reason to refuse service, when others went and died. His punishment should have been the maximum permissible.
    But that was his main reason for refusing to be drafted. Perhaps you should watch the short video in post #8 at the very least. Or do some homework on the subject.
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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by Nap View Post
    I don't believe military service should be forced on anyone.
    Are you suggesting that in a conflict with potential existential consequences, everyone should get to decide if they feel the country is worth fighting for? If so, that Pandora's Box has far reaching consequences doesn't it. If laws are specific to the individual, isn't that really just anarchy (or the potential for anarchy even if everyone agreed and behaved the same way). Laws often times require behavior or action when individuals resist. Paying taxes. Obeying the speed limit. And yes, putting ones self in harm's way if our country is threatened and individuals are drafted. Now, one can argue the definition of "threatened" as in "Iraq posed no threat to us here" prior to the most recent war." But, the very nature of our system of government requires trust; trust that our elected officials will do the right thing. It is up to us to rectify the situation via the ballot box if they don't.

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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    I think he did it because he was genuinely afraid to have his ass in the grass. Lots of black dudes felt the same way and had the same criticisms, but they went anyway. I've always loved Ali and thought he represented the country very well and was good for kids as a great role model, but on that he was wrong.

    In the long run of course, those of us who knew we didn't have any business over there were absolutely right, but you can't take advantage of the gifts of this country without living up to the responsibilities.
    They went because they didn't have the courage of their conviction nor the clout Ali had. It's just that simple.

    The problem with your analogy at the end is Ali didn't believe America had bestowed any "gifts" upon him. He firmly believed his beauty, skills and talents were a gift from God and that anything he achieved was due to God's blessings. Therefore, he didn't think he owed American anything. That believe was further cemented once the federal government tried to take his livelihood away from him.
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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerace117 View Post
    Quote function didnít work the first time I tried it letís see if itíll work now....
    You lost me.
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  6. #336
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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    They went because they didn't have the courage of their conviction nor the clout Ali had. It's just that simple.

    The problem with your analogy at the end is Ali didn't believe America had bestowed any "gifts" upon him. He firmly believed his beauty, skills and talents were a gift from God and that anything he achieved was due to God's blessings. Therefore, he didn't think he owed American anything. That believe was further cemented once the federal government tried to take his livelihood away from him.
    Muhammad Ali refuses Army induction - Apr 28, 1967 - HISTORY.com

    Ali was convicted of draft evasion, sentenced to five years in prison, fined $10,000 and banned from boxing for three years.
    He didn't have that much juice.

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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    The core problem with Barbarossa is the plan was a pipe-dream. Little things like starting the offensive two months earlier, bringing more winter clothing, or not pushing for Kiev don't change the essential arithmetic of an army trying to go too far on too little, against an enemy with too much depth and too many reserves.



    Everything you've said here is fairly correct and very well written, and I have no idea what point you're trying to prove.
    Barbarossa was plain insanity and ego for the leaders of both nations, in no particular order. Sacrificing the lives of so many for so little.

    The point is simple, refighting the war, arguing the specifics, on the internet holds no value. It isn't a point to prove, just to accept. I grew up listening to my father and his brothers arguing the fine points of each of the campaigns they had participated in every Sunday after dinner and an afternoon of watching whatever sports were in season on my grandmother's tiny B&W tv in her living room with the women in the kitchen, sitting on the porch or showing the kids in the family new puppies and kittens from the strays my grandmother kept bringing into her house. When myself and my cousins had all returned from SE, one of my cousins asked the prior generations, if any of them had been aware of these moments when they were busy trying to stay alive and keep their buds alive as they were killing fascists, or waiting, the endless military habit, to do the same. They all laughed, and said "of course not." Then my uncle Ruby quietly, almost with a whisper, said, "We speak about the war this way so we don't speak of the horrors we each witnessed and which damaged our souls." After my touristing in SE Asia, I understood. I also understood why my father rarely spoke to myself and my siblings about his war experiences when we asked as children, why he always deflected the conversation. They were hard men, made harder by the war, but it was still all a nightmare that never ended. You could see it their eyes. Perhaps that is why they held their children so dearly yet kept a certain distance?
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  8. #338
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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by Mixolydian View Post
    Are you suggesting that in a conflict with potential existential consequences, everyone should get to decide if they feel the country is worth fighting for? If so, that Pandora's Box has far reaching consequences doesn't it. If laws are specific to the individual, isn't that really just anarchy (or the potential for anarchy even if everyone agreed and behaved the same way). Laws often times require behavior or action when individuals resist. Paying taxes. Obeying the speed limit. And yes, putting ones self in harm's way if our country is threatened and individuals are drafted. Now, one can argue the definition of "threatened" as in "Iraq posed no threat to us here" prior to the most recent war." But, the very nature of our system of government requires trust; trust that our elected officials will do the right thing. It is up to us to rectify the situation via the ballot box if they don't.
    Our system of governance is one of quiet revolution. Enough citizens who no longer trust politicians in office have the right to show them exactly that at the next election. Historically the experiment with quiet revolutions, has been relatively successful compare to the violence of other regime changes in the past as well as right now.

    Each and every man and woman in our society has the right to express their opinions and choose their actions, including rejection of government actions. None escape the consequences, tho each maintains a right to defend themselves in a court of law and their peers.

    Sometimes, still, the system fails. There may not be a consequential alternative at the ballot. Politicians certainly win by default. The trust of the citizens is not earned, and not cared for, one way or another. Then we have to hope for time to cure. Political policies of war, the demand to serve are not sacrosanct, they are not written in stone. On a personal level, I trust no politician, not one, and you have no right to demand that I do. I don't accept your self righteousness.
    Last edited by OldFatGuy; 01-02-18 at 08:00 PM.
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  9. #339
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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by Mixolydian View Post
    Are you suggesting that in a conflict with potential existential consequences, everyone should get to decide if they feel the country is worth fighting for? If so, that Pandora's Box has far reaching consequences doesn't it. If laws are specific to the individual, isn't that really just anarchy (or the potential for anarchy even if everyone agreed and behaved the same way). Laws often times require behavior or action when individuals resist. Paying taxes. Obeying the speed limit. And yes, putting ones self in harm's way if our country is threatened and individuals are drafted. Now, one can argue the definition of "threatened" as in "Iraq posed no threat to us here" prior to the most recent war." But, the very nature of our system of government requires trust; trust that our elected officials will do the right thing. It is up to us to rectify the situation via the ballot box if they don't.

    Of course I do, if someone doesn't want to serve it is not only wrong to force them but put yourself in the soldier's position would you really want to put your life in the hands of the soldier next to you and he doesn't want to be there?

    Outside of WW2, has any war be a legimate threat to us?

    Maybe the government was worthy of trust at one time in history, however in my lifetime the only thing you could trust the government for is bombing people in the middle East, creating unnecessary regulations, and obscene levels of corruption. I wish I could blindly trust the government, but pay any attention to what's going on and that trust quickly evaporates.

  10. #340
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    Re: Muhammad Ali was Right to Refuse Army Induction

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    You lost me.
    The quote function wasn’t working right and didn’t let me properly post the first time. It’s more or less fixed now.

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