What is the problem with Mississippi?

Ahlevah · Dec 29, 2017

The state has been a perennial economic backwater since the Civil War, when King Cotton, timber, and the slave economy propelled Natchez to the status of having more millionaires per capita than any other city in the United States. It's been pretty much downhill since. I think we're still on our 1988 highway plan.

It is estimated that Tunica County took in more than $750,000,000 in taxes, mostly from the gaming industry, since dockside gambling was legalized in 1992. Where did the money go? Things like four-lane highways to make the driving easier for the flocks of tourists and gamblers. And now that the gaming boom has fizzled in Tunica thanks to increased competition, all of that deteriorating infrastructure seems like a cruel joke. And where are the tax revenues to maintain it going to come from now? It sure won't come from poor blacks in one of the poorest counties (still) in the country who can't even maintain their own homes. I also doubt it's going to fall upon the large county landholders who were the principal beneficiaries of the tax cuts that were put in place thanks to casinos. Meanwhile, the state is still trying to get its economic output back to 2008, and its one of only two states (the other being its neighbor to the west, Louisiana) in the South to lose population for three consecutive years.

So what should the state do to right the ship? Is there anything it can do? Robert Reich would say it needs more public investment. Presumably, that would include education. But right now young, educated Mississippians can't wait to get out. I see it on a micro level with childhood friends of my sons. One went to California, where he writes code, another went to Colorado, where he writes code, another went to Washington, where he writes code, and so forth. So the high wage earners (and their taxes) are fleeing. Republicans say Mississippi needs to cut taxes and provide incentives for investment. It does that, often with minimal benefit. For example, Chevron, which operates its largest petroleum refinery in the United States in Pascagoula, got a 10-year tax moratorium on a $2 billion investment in a new base oil production facility. The total number of permanent jobs for that: 30. And how many of those are actually in Mississippi instead of neighboring Alabama, which is a stone's throw from the plant, is anyone's guess. Meanwhile, everyone else in the vicinity of the refinery gets the benefit of the increased pollution. And years ago Oreck was given a 10-year tax abatement in order to open a plant in Long Beach, Mississippi, but closed it at the end of the 10-year period, which coincidentally was announced a little more than one year after Hurricane Katrina. Talk about kicking people in the nuts when they're down. :doh

On a personal level, I moved myself and my family here more than two decades ago after my father's suicide. I was tired of the management rat race in California, where I was raised and spent most of my life up to that point. We just needed a new start in a new setting. We live along the Gulf Coast near Biloxi, about ninety minutes from New Orleans, and became casino dealers. What drew us here was the unique culture and history that goes back to when the French first landed on the Back Bay in 1699, erected a fort, and made Old Biloxi France's first capital of the Louisiana Territory. (Native Americans were here first, of course, but there is little actual evidence that they ever existed.) What can I say. I like the area's unique history, good food, music, art scene (yes, art scene), slower pace, and pretty sunsets over the Mississippi Sound. Regardless of the larger economic and social problems facing the state as whole, this is home now and probably will be as long as I'm living.

Glen Contrarian · Dec 29, 2017

Ahlevah said:
Regardless of the larger economic and social problems facing the state as whole, this is home now and probably will be as long as I'm living.

*cracks knuckles*

Boy oh boy oh boy, did you just gave me a New Year's gift! Why? I grew up in Mississippi...and not just in MS, but in the Delta, the very deepest of the Deep South...and not just in the Delta, but out in the boonies of Sunflower county surrounded by cotton and soybean fields (which have since been replaced with corn fields), and lived just a few miles down the road from US Sen. James O. Eastland, who was for a generation the most powerful racist in America...and a little closer than that is a small Southern Baptist church where my direct line is buried all the way back to 1870. And I'm white and grew up racist (even attended a segregation academy for a year)...till I joined the Navy, saw the world, and was forced by my experiences to unlearn my racism.

In other words, yeah, I'm qualified to answer this!

So what's the answer? It comes in two parts: Mississippi is (1) very rural, and is (2) ground zero for racism in America. First off, you're in the NICE part of the state, being down there on the coast. But as you've seen, a lot of the state is still backwards. It boils down to this: those who live in rural areas are a lot less cosmopolitan because they get a lot less contact with those of other races and ethnicities. If someone spoke with a different accent or looked or dressed a little different, they were met with suspicion. Such is normal not just for the Delta, but for anyplace that is poor and rural.

But add to that the continuing tradition of racism. Did you know that MS did not ratify the 13th Amendment (banning slavery) until 2013? Yep - four years ago! And all through school there, we were taught that the Civil War was never about slavery, but for {insert cause here}. It was only after the internet made it available that I was able to read Mississippi's Articles of Secession to see that yeah, it was all about slavery. See those legislators in Jackson? Many of them are the children of those who fought against desegregation back in the 1960's...and the apples did not fall far from the tree. But then you have to ask yourself how the heck did racism cause MS to remain so backward? Read this article about Reagan's political adviser Lee Atwater, wherein you can find his quote:

You start out in 1954 by saying, “Ni**er, ni**er, ni**er.” By 1968 you can’t say “ni**er”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Ni**er, ni**er.”

Remember, that was Reagan's political adviser. Look up Nixon's Southern Strategy sometime, and between those two you can start to get an idea of why the GOP is the way it is today. Anyway, back to the lack of economic progress - note the sentence with the bolded phrase above. The racists would not vote for what would help themselves if they knew that it would also hurt the blacks. You pointed out what Robert Reich said about public investment, and I strongly agree with him...but MS will have none of that because the racists - yes, the racists - are appalled at the very notion of blacks benefiting from any kind of public program no matter how much it helps the whites.

One last thing: most racists don't even realize they're racist. I'm not kidding! Look at the whites you see who you know are racist - if you ask them, almost all of them will be greatly offended at even being asked...and they'll be sincere! They really, truly do not recognize their own racism for what it is. Bear in mind what Jesus said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do"...because they really don't know. I didn't until I saw the world. My family there never did until their dying days.

So...I do miss the Delta - the land, the weather, the flora and fauna (but NOT the mosquitoes), and oh man do I miss the food...but I will never live there again - I cannot stand the racism...because for those of us who know it, who lived it, it's so thick you can cut it out of the air with a knife.

DaveFagan · Dec 29, 2017

Cotton and timber would be locally labor intensive infrastructure. Do they still do cotton and is there any timber left? Textile factories all went to China and East Asia. Are there timber processing industries? Are there many recreational lake areas or is it all swamp? Timber builds houses and how is the housing industry? Too hot and too humid for me, but I grew up in the North, and lived in Texas, Cali, NC, Wash, Penna, Tenn, and more. I've driven through Mississippi, and once delivered some hospital beds to Jackson, Miss, but didn't see anything or hear about anything that would draw me back. I think the state is a rural backwater and I don't mean the statement to be offensive, but an acknowledgement of reality. I live in a New York county that has no jobs and all the children must move out or nearly starve and that is the same as Mississippi. Same story land, timber, some oil, rocks, clean streams, beautiful landscapes, a couple small Industries and it is Mississippi on a small scale. No one has found a solution for this County either. Lost 7% of its' 50,000 citizens in the last 10 years. Now, 46,500. If you can't find something that brings money into these communities, they will not change.

Ahlevah · Dec 29, 2017

DaveFagan said:
Cotton and timber would be locally labor intensive infrastructure. Do they still do cotton and is there any timber left? Textile factories all went to China and East Asia. Are there timber processing industries? Are there many recreational lake areas or is it all swamp? Timber builds houses and how is the housing industry? Too hot and too humid for me, but I grew up in the North, and lived in Texas, Cali, NC, Wash, Penna, Tenn, and more. I've driven through Mississippi, and once delivered some hospital beds to Jackson, Miss, but didn't see anything or hear about anything that would draw me back. I think the state is a rural backwater and I don't mean the statement to be offensive, but an acknowledgement of reality. I live in a New York county that has no jobs and all the children must move out or nearly starve and that is the same as Mississippi. Same story land, timber, some oil, rocks, clean streams, beautiful landscapes, a couple small Industries and it is Mississippi on a small scale. No one has found a solution for this County either. Lost 7% of its' 50,000 citizens in the last 10 years. Now, 46,500. If you can't find something that brings money into these communities, they will not change.

They still grow cotton, as well as other crops such as corn for livestock feed and soybeans, mostly in the Delta region where Glen is from. They also raise catfish, hogs, cattle, and chickens. Timber is still a major industry, especially in the so-called "Pine Belt" in the central part of the state, although the paper part of the industry is a shadow of what it once was. We do have some heavy industry here. I already mentioned the oil refinery, Chevron's largest in the United States. We also have two major auto plants, one operated by Toyota, the other Nissan, as well as a tire plant owned by Japan's Yokohama. We also have shipbuilding facilities, with the largest being Huntington-Ingalls' yard in Pascagoula. EADS through its Airbus Helicopters unit builds helicopters at a plant in Columbus. Northrop Grumman builds drones, including Global Hawk surveillance aircraft, as well as performing sub-assembly work for the F-35 program, at a plant in Moss Point. Rolls-Royce operates two jet engine test stands. The U.S. government is a major employer. For example, NASA operates Stennis Space Center, where rocket engines are tested. This facility is also used by major defense contractors such as Boeing. Also at Stennis, the U.S. Navy operates its oceanographic office. Let's see--what else? Hospitality and gaming, fishing and seafood, even swamp tours and alligator encounters. :lol: I guess once I thought about it there's more than I considered originally.

Ahlevah · Dec 29, 2017

Glen Contrarian said:
So...I do miss the Delta - the land, the weather, the flora and fauna (but NOT the mosquitoes), and oh man do I miss the food...but I will never live there again - I cannot stand the racism...because for those of us who know it, who lived it, it's so thick you can cut it out of the air with a knife.

You know, I'm well aware of Mississippi's racist past. I am also aware that there are bubbas here, but then there are bubbas everywhere. Honestly, I don't think people have a clue about the racist history in my home state, California. There was a lot of racism there against Mexicans, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Filipinos, blacks--you name it. One could say WASPy Californians were equal opportunity bigots. My wife and I once bought a house there where we received a copy of the subdivision's original Conditions, Covenants, and Restrictions (CC&Rs) as part of a title search. The only people who could legally buy that house were WASPs. You could have had the money of a Rothschild, but if you were a Jew you would have been just another "kike" told to take a hike. And yet the place prospered. At least in the last century a black could buy property in Mississippi. It might have been a shotgun house on the south side of the tracks, but at least he could own it! But if you were Japanese or Chinese in California, you were screwed because 1) you couldn't get citizenship, and 2) California said if you weren't a citizen you couldn't own real estate. And since few people wanted to hire "Japs" or "chinks" as anything other than farmhands or day laborers, they started laundries or restaurants or farms using leased land or buildings. My Lutheran grandmother always said "Where there's a will, there's a way." So while I think there's some truth to your racism argument on a historical basis, I don't think it completely explains the problem. At least we don't have race riots here. Can California say that?

Glen Contrarian · Dec 30, 2017

Ahlevah said:
You know, I'm well aware of Mississippi's racist past. I am also aware that there are bubbas here, but then there are bubbas everywhere. Honestly, I don't think people have a clue about the racist history in my home state, California. There was a lot of racism there against Mexicans, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Filipinos, blacks--you name it. One could say WASPy Californians were equal opportunity bigots. My wife and I once bought a house there where we received a copy of the subdivision's original Conditions, Covenants, and Restrictions (CC&Rs) as part of a title search. The only people who could legally buy that house were WASPs. You could have had the money of a Rothschild, but if you were a Jew you would have been just another "kike" told to take a hike. And yet the place prospered. At least in the last century a black could buy property in Mississippi. It might have been a shotgun house on the south side of the tracks, but at least he could own it! But if you were Japanese or Chinese in California, you were screwed because 1) you couldn't get citizenship, and 2) California said if you weren't a citizen you couldn't own real estate. And since few people wanted to hire "Japs" or "chinks" as anything other than farmhands or day laborers, they started laundries or restaurants or farms using leased land or buildings. My Lutheran grandmother always said "Where there's a will, there's a way." So while I think there's some truth to your racism argument on a historical basis, I don't think it completely explains the problem. At least we don't have race riots here. Can California say that?

What's the difference? Easy. When I was growing up in MS, we - meaning us racist whites (including me and my family) - would point at the race riots in other places (esp. Chicago) and we'd tell each other "see, that's where the real racists are". Tell me, how different is that one question from your diatribe above?

Not very.

I'll give you another example. In Shaw, MS - where I graduated high school in 1980 - there was one doctor's office in town. It had two entrances. Above one entrance was "Whites" and above the other was "Coloreds". The words were completely painted over with green paint...but paint doesn't hide inch-deep chisels in marble so well...and the townspeople obeyed those signs. When I came back home on leave from the Navy in 1984, those signs above those doors were still there...twenty years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act. And the people still obeyed them. And I didn't even raise an eyebrow - I was still (unknowingly) racist at the time and figured that's the way it had always been, there's been no problems, so why worry about it?

Now you have to ask yourself why the people still obeyed those signs? The answer's easy - we whites owned almost all the businesses, almost all the money, and almost all the real political power. If any blacks were so "uppity" as to make trouble like they did (in our opinion) in Chicago or NYC or LA, those blacks (we'd call them something else, of course) and their families would find themselves out of any jobs they might have...and there's nothing, absolutely nothing the blacks could do about it. That, sir, is why you don't hear of riots in MS. At least in California there were whites who would stand with the blacks (and other minorities). In MS...not so much, lest said "ni**er-loving whites" find themselves (and their families) out of work and unable to get hired elsewhere...just as what happened to the blacks.

Now, back to your complaints about California. As you know, MOST of California is rural, and as I described in my first reply, those in rural areas tend to be more racist (not because they're white, either - the same dynamic is found all over the world). What's more, California gave us Reagan (remember my reference to Lee Atwater in my last reply?) and Proposition 13 which gutted so much of California's educational infrastructure. What I'm getting at is that YES, you're going to find racism to differing extents anywhere you go (and I've been around this world, remember - got lots of stories)...but nowhere in America is it as deeply entrenched as it is in MS...and nowhere in America are the minorities so powerless to stand for themselves as are the blacks in MS, for in MS, they believe (rightly or wrongly) that no one of real consequence will stand with them. So they endure, and stay under the radar by being friendly sometimes even to the point of being a modern-day Stepin Fetchit. But if they get to really know you and realize that you're not like the white racists they've dealt with all their lives (like several did in the Delta when they saw how strongly I supported Obama even to the shame and disgust of my family there), then they start to open up...and you start hearing things you didn't know before.

Glen Contrarian · Dec 30, 2017

Ahlevah said:
You know, I'm well aware of Mississippi's racist past. I am also aware that there are bubbas here, but then there are bubbas everywhere. Honestly, I don't think people have a clue about the racist history in my home state, California. There was a lot of racism there against Mexicans, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Filipinos, blacks--you name it. One could say WASPy Californians were equal opportunity bigots. My wife and I once bought a house there where we received a copy of the subdivision's original Conditions, Covenants, and Restrictions (CC&Rs) as part of a title search. The only people who could legally buy that house were WASPs. You could have had the money of a Rothschild, but if you were a Jew you would have been just another "kike" told to take a hike. And yet the place prospered. At least in the last century a black could buy property in Mississippi. It might have been a shotgun house on the south side of the tracks, but at least he could own it! But if you were Japanese or Chinese in California, you were screwed because 1) you couldn't get citizenship, and 2) California said if you weren't a citizen you couldn't own real estate. And since few people wanted to hire "Japs" or "chinks" as anything other than farmhands or day laborers, they started laundries or restaurants or farms using leased land or buildings. My Lutheran grandmother always said "Where there's a will, there's a way." So while I think there's some truth to your racism argument on a historical basis, I don't think it completely explains the problem. At least we don't have race riots here. Can California say that?

Oh, and one more thing for full disclosure - I'm no stranger to California. I was born in Crescent City, lived in Eureka, Arcata, and San Diego, and my oldest son was born in Oxnard.

99percenter · Dec 30, 2017

They problem is they get too much in federal aid. States like new york, illionois, and california have residents pay more in federal tax then they get back from the govt. Mississippi and all the other red states need to stop mooching of the govt and pay their fair share.

LesGovt · Dec 30, 2017

99percenter said:
They problem is they get too much in federal aid. States like new york, illionois, and california have residents pay more in federal tax then they get back from the govt. Mississippi and all the other red states need to stop mooching of the govt and pay their fair share.

There is a quick way to solve that problem. Take most of the Federal Programs and hand them to the States.

99percenter · Dec 30, 2017

LesGovt said:
There is a quick way to solve that problem. Take most of the Federal Programs and hand them to the States.

Yep i agree. Blue states need to stop subsidizing red states.

Evilroddy · Dec 30, 2017

What is the problem with Mississippi?

Too many repeating letters.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

LesGovt · Dec 30, 2017

Evilroddy said:
What is the problem with Mississippi?

Too many repeating letters.

When you have a song like this, what could be wrong?

Ahlevah · Dec 31, 2017

Glen Contrarian said:
What's the difference? Easy. When I was growing up in MS, we - meaning us racist whites (including me and my family) - would point at the race riots in other places (esp. Chicago) and we'd tell each other "see, that's where the real racists are". Tell me, how different is that one question from your diatribe above?

The difference is I acknowledged that there are racists everywhere. Some of it was (and is) pretty ugly. I'll put up some Irish Catholics from South Boston against any racist you want to mention from Shaw, Mississippi. :2wave: And since it's show and tell time, let me say that my maternal roots in Mississippi go back to when the state was founded. My great-great-grandfather fought at Corinth and Vicksburg. Some of my relatives held slaves. (On my father's side, there were Nazis. :doh) My grandfather was the son of a Mississippi scratch farmer--literally a "redneck" in one of the most "rednecky" parts of the state where the KKK had a solid presence during the Civil Rights Era (East Central Mississippi). My sister and I used to spend summers at my grandparents' home in Meridian. Among our playmate friends were children whose dad was convicted in federal court in the 1964 Neshoba County "Mississippi Burning" killings. They lived literally across the street. (I'm not saying publicly in this forum who the father was, but I wouldn't mind doing it by PM if you're curious.) During desegregation of the Meridian schools, I remember the father of my grandparents' next door neighbor telling my grandmother that he'd never let his kids attend school with "n*****s," just as many other white parents did. So, like I said, I'm aware of the climate that existed, in some parts of the state especially, and that still does exist to some extent. But the climate today is simply not the same as the one that existed during the worst days of the struggle for civil rights in the 1950s and '60s. Honestly, most of the old guard I came across who held these views are, thankfully, deceased. (My grandparents weren't among them. My grandmother was an elementary school teacher in the Meridian school district, who, to her credit, volunteered to teach in one of the formerly all-black schools when desegregation was instituted.)

Glen Contrarian said:
At least in California there were whites who would stand with the blacks (and other minorities). In MS...not so much, lest said "ni**er-loving whites" find themselves (and their families) out of work and unable to get hired elsewhere...just as what happened to the blacks.

Whites who would stand with the blacks in California? :lol: When the LA Unified School District desegregated and began busing kids from the wealthier San Fernando Valley and West Side to South Central Los Angeles, they fled the district by the tens of thousands. Today only about 10% of the district is made up of non-Hispanic whites. And then Latin gangs such as MS-13 showed up and the blacks couldn't get out fast enough. Many of them fled from South Central to the Inland Empire. Today the district is about 70% Hispanic.

Glen Contrarian said:
What I'm getting at is that YES, you're going to find racism to differing extents anywhere you go (and I've been around this world, remember - got lots of stories)...but nowhere in America is it as deeply entrenched as it is in MS...and nowhere in America are the minorities so powerless to stand for themselves as are the blacks in MS, for in MS, they believe (rightly or wrongly) that no one of real consequence will stand with them. So they endure, and stay under the radar by being friendly sometimes even to the point of being a modern-day Stepin Fetchit. But if they get to really know you and realize that you're not like the white racists they've dealt with all their lives (like several did in the Delta when they saw how strongly I supported Obama even to the shame and disgust of my family there), then they start to open up...and you start hearing things you didn't know before.

Oh, I know. I've had some of these discussions with black coworkers. Some are from Mississippi, others from elsewhere, such as New Orleans. We tend to be very frank with each other, but at the same time respectful. If, for example, we talk about cops killing blacks, I tell them that down here even I know if a cop tells you not to twitch a whisker, that means don't twitch a whisker. They're, of course, convinced that bubba cops are out to murder them for no reason other than that they're black. Personally, I'm not convinced.

Gaea · Dec 31, 2017

Ahlevah said:
The state has been a perennial economic backwater since the Civil War, when King Cotton, timber, and the slave economy propelled Natchez to the status of having more millionaires per capita than any other city in the United States. It's been pretty much downhill since. I think we're still on our 1988 highway plan. It is estimated that Tunica County took in more than $750,000,000 in taxes, mostly from the gaming industry, since dockside gambling was legalized in 1992. Where did the money go? Things like four-lane highways to make the driving easier for the flocks of tourists and gamblers. And now that the gaming boom has fizzled in Tunica thanks to increased competition, all of that deteriorating infrastructure seems like a cruel joke. And where are the tax revenues to maintain it going to come from now? It sure won't come from poor blacks in one of the poorest counties (still) in the country who can't even maintain their own homes. I also doubt it's going to fall upon the large county landholders who were the principal beneficiaries of the tax cuts that were put in place thanks to casinos. Meanwhile, the state is still trying to get its economic output back to 2008, and its one of only two states (the other being its neighbor to the west, Louisiana) in the South to lose population for three consecutive years.

So what should the state do to right the ship? Is there anything it can do? Robert Reich would say it needs more public investment. Presumably, that would include education. But right now young, educated Mississippians can't wait to get out. I see it on a micro level with childhood friends of my sons. One went to California, where he writes code, another went to Colorado, where he writes code, another went to Washington, where he writes code, and so forth. So the high wage earners (and their taxes) are fleeing. Republicans say Mississippi needs to cut taxes and provide incentives for investment. It does that, often with minimal benefit. For example, Chevron, which operates its largest petroleum refinery in the United States in Pascagoula, got a 10-year tax moratorium on a $2 billion investment in a new base oil production facility. The total number of permanent jobs for that: 30. And how many of those are actually in Mississippi instead of neighboring Alabama, which is a stone's throw from the plant, is anyone's guess. Meanwhile, everyone else in the vicinity of the refinery gets the benefit of the increased pollution. And years ago Oreck was given a 10-year tax abatement in order to open a plant in Long Beach, Mississippi, but closed it at the end of the 10-year period, which coincidentally was announced a little more than one year after Hurricane Katrina. Talk about kicking people in the nuts when they're down. :doh

On a personal level, I moved myself and my family here more than two decades ago after my father's suicide. I was tired of the management rat race in California, where I was raised and spent most of my life up to that point. We just needed a new start in a new setting. We live along the Gulf Coast near Biloxi, about ninety minutes from New Orleans, and became casino dealers. What drew us here was the unique culture and history that goes back to when the French first landed on the Back Bay in 1699, erected a fort, and made Old Biloxi France's first capital of the Louisiana Territory. (Native Americans were here first, of course, but there is little actual evidence that they ever existed.) What can I say. I like the area's unique history, good food, music, art scene (yes, art scene), slower pace, and pretty sunsets over the Mississippi Sound. Regardless of the larger economic and social problems facing the state as whole, this is home now and probably will be as long as I'm living.

I voted brain drain - although I almost voted "Lack of public investment".

From my perspective MS and a number of other places suffer from a lack of education. Those who do get educated leave for the big hubs of modern industry. Modern industry doesn't come to these places because there's a lack of educated people who would be qualified to work.

I suspect a lot of the education issues would be alleviated if MS was willing to invest more seriously in education (Mississippi State University is ranked 171 nationally - good luck attracting talent with a ranking like that).

Also supporting this - Mississippi ranks last in education. (They're ranked 51st in K-12)

RetiredUSN · Dec 31, 2017

Ahlevah said:
The difference is I acknowledged that there are racists everywhere. Some of it was (and is) pretty ugly. I'll put up some Irish Catholics from South Boston against any racist you want to mention from Shaw, Mississippi. :2wave: And since it's show and tell time, let me say that my maternal roots in Mississippi go back to when the state was founded. My great-great-grandfather fought at Corinth and Vicksburg. Some of my relatives held slaves. (On my father's side, there were Nazis. :doh) My grandfather was the son of a Mississippi scratch farmer--literally a "redneck" in one of the most "rednecky" parts of the state where the KKK had a solid presence during the Civil Rights Era (East Central Mississippi). My sister and I used to spend summers at my grandparents' home in Meridian. Among our playmate friends were children whose dad was convicted in federal court in the 1964 Neshoba County "Mississippi Burning" killings. They lived literally across the street. (I'm not saying publicly in this forum who the father was, but I wouldn't mind doing it by PM if you're curious.) During desegregation of the Meridian schools, I remember the father of my grandparents' next door neighbor telling my grandmother that he'd never let his kids attend school with "n*****s," just as many other white parents did. So, like I said, I'm aware of the climate that existed, in some parts of the state especially, and that still does exist to some extent. But the climate today is simply not the same as the one that existed during the worst days of the struggle for civil rights in the 1950s and '60s. Honestly, most of the old guard I came across who held these views are, thankfully, deceased. (My grandparents weren't among them. My grandmother was an elementary school teacher in the Meridian school district, who, to her credit, volunteered to teach in one of the formerly all-black schools when desegregation was instituted.)

Whites who would stand with the blacks in California? :lol: When the LA Unified School District desegregated and began busing kids from the wealthier San Fernando Valley and West Side to South Central Los Angeles, they fled the district by the tens of thousands. Today only about 10% of the district is made up of non-Hispanic whites. And then Latin gangs such as MS-13 showed up and the blacks couldn't get out fast enough. Many of them fled from South Central to the Inland Empire. Today the district is about 70% Hispanic.

Oh, I know. I've had some of these discussions with black coworkers. Some are from Mississippi, others from elsewhere, such as New Orleans. We tend to be very frank with each other, but at the same time respectful. If, for example, we talk about cops killing blacks, I tell them that down here even I know if a cop tells you not to twitch a whisker, that means don't twitch a whisker. They're, of course, convinced that bubba cops are out to murder them for no reason other than that they're black. Personally, I'm not convinced.

Boston, (and many other areas of Massachusetts) is by far the most racist place I have lived.

Tim the plumber · Dec 31, 2017

Ahlevah said:
The state has been a perennial economic backwater since the Civil War, when King Cotton, timber, and the slave economy propelled Natchez to the status of having more millionaires per capita than any other city in the United States. It's been pretty much downhill since. I think we're still on our 1988 highway plan. It is estimated that Tunica County took in more than $750,000,000 in taxes, mostly from the gaming industry, since dockside gambling was legalized in 1992. Where did the money go? Things like four-lane highways to make the driving easier for the flocks of tourists and gamblers. And now that the gaming boom has fizzled in Tunica thanks to increased competition, all of that deteriorating infrastructure seems like a cruel joke. And where are the tax revenues to maintain it going to come from now? It sure won't come from poor blacks in one of the poorest counties (still) in the country who can't even maintain their own homes. I also doubt it's going to fall upon the large county landholders who were the principal beneficiaries of the tax cuts that were put in place thanks to casinos. Meanwhile, the state is still trying to get its economic output back to 2008, and its one of only two states (the other being its neighbor to the west, Louisiana) in the South to lose population for three consecutive years.

So what should the state do to right the ship? Is there anything it can do? Robert Reich would say it needs more public investment. Presumably, that would include education. But right now young, educated Mississippians can't wait to get out. I see it on a micro level with childhood friends of my sons. One went to California, where he writes code, another went to Colorado, where he writes code, another went to Washington, where he writes code, and so forth. So the high wage earners (and their taxes) are fleeing. Republicans say Mississippi needs to cut taxes and provide incentives for investment. It does that, often with minimal benefit. For example, Chevron, which operates its largest petroleum refinery in the United States in Pascagoula, got a 10-year tax moratorium on a $2 billion investment in a new base oil production facility. The total number of permanent jobs for that: 30. And how many of those are actually in Mississippi instead of neighboring Alabama, which is a stone's throw from the plant, is anyone's guess. Meanwhile, everyone else in the vicinity of the refinery gets the benefit of the increased pollution. And years ago Oreck was given a 10-year tax abatement in order to open a plant in Long Beach, Mississippi, but closed it at the end of the 10-year period, which coincidentally was announced a little more than one year after Hurricane Katrina. Talk about kicking people in the nuts when they're down. :doh

On a personal level, I moved myself and my family here more than two decades ago after my father's suicide. I was tired of the management rat race in California, where I was raised and spent most of my life up to that point. We just needed a new start in a new setting. We live along the Gulf Coast near Biloxi, about ninety minutes from New Orleans, and became casino dealers. What drew us here was the unique culture and history that goes back to when the French first landed on the Back Bay in 1699, erected a fort, and made Old Biloxi France's first capital of the Louisiana Territory. (Native Americans were here first, of course, but there is little actual evidence that they ever existed.) What can I say. I like the area's unique history, good food, music, art scene (yes, art scene), slower pace, and pretty sunsets over the Mississippi Sound. Regardless of the larger economic and social problems facing the state as whole, this is home now and probably will be as long as I'm living.

Culture;

If You live in a society where social competition is defined soley through money then the maximum activity rat race is what you get.

If you live in a more "Scandinavian" society where social cohesion is valued more (to what degree this is real is debatable) then other things happen.

If you live in a place where conformaty and regulation rule then you get a very neat well painted place like Austria. Piant and DIY are cheap.

If you live in a place that values artistic creativity you will get a very interesting if money poor place.

If you live in a place that values sitting around dooing little you will get France, to some degree.

If your society has yet to make up it's collective mind you will see lots of social problems because that society is trying to fix things it does not even agree on being the problem. Mississippi, well that plus the corruption.

Glen Contrarian · Dec 31, 2017

Ahlevah said:
The difference is I acknowledged that there are racists everywhere. Some of it was (and is) pretty ugly.
...
Oh, I know. I've had some of these discussions with black coworkers. Some are from Mississippi, others from elsewhere, such as New Orleans. We tend to be very frank with each other, but at the same time respectful. If, for example, we talk about cops killing blacks, I tell them that down here even I know if a cop tells you not to twitch a whisker, that means don't twitch a whisker. They're, of course, convinced that bubba cops are out to murder them for no reason other than that they're black. Personally, I'm not convinced.

Does South Boston or the LA Unified School District have segregation academies? Mississippi does, even today. The one I attended is still in operation. Oh, it finally decided to admit a few blacks so they could say, "see, we admitted blacks, so we can't be racist!"...but those black kids comprise less than 5% of the student body in a town that's about 80% black. Yes, it's getting better (as it is everywhere else)...but slowly, very slowly indeed.

Here's another thing you might consider. You point at racism in South Boston and LA and imply it's worse there...but tell me, when a mixed-race couple walk down the street in either of those two places, does anyone really raise an eyebrow? Now go to the Delta - you'll see mixed-race with Asians or Hispanics...but look to see if you can find mixed-race white/black there. I've yet to see a single one in all my years. I'm sure there must be a few - if only a very few - in Cleveland since it's a college town (and as such is generally significantly more liberal than the rest), but I haven't seen it. That doesn't mean that there aren't white/black relationships there - you'll find some mixed-race children - but openly-married black/white couples? I haven't seen a single one in the Delta, the single "blackest" place in America. Ever. And I can promise you that it's not because the blacks refuse to consider such relationships.

In the urban areas you described, it's also much easier to organize, to gather in the thousands - but in the very rural Delta...not so much.

Are there places in the world that are more racist than the Delta? Absolutely! I remember seeing a sign on a bar in Pattaya Beach, Thailand that said, "No blacks or Arabs allowed". In Dubai, there's many Asians (yes, the ME is part of Asia, but you know what I mean), but the social separation between the Middle Easterners and the Asians is painfully obvious. In London I saw graffiti on the wall saying, "Pakis go home!" - referring to the Pakistanis, apparently. And of course there's the right-wing racial nationalists that have begun to flex their political muscles in much of eastern Europe.

But I will say this much in defense of the racial attitudes in MS - in comparison to the rise of racist "white nationalism" in much of America with the rise of Trump (whom I utterly despise), I get the impression that MS hasn't followed the trend, that it hasn't gotten worse as other parts of the nation has when it comes to racism. In fact - and you might find this interesting - you might consider what happened during the 2012 Republican primaries. Remember how Santorum seemed to be a bit racist as compared to Romney? Santorum won the MS primary...but Romney won in the college towns (Hattiesburg, Starkville, Oxford) and in Hinds County (Jackson) and in the Delta. Now one can understand the college towns and Jackson, since those are more liberal than the norm. But the Delta? Especially considering that less than one percent of those who voted in the MS GOP primary were black? In other words, the whites of the MS Delta voted for Romney. This is all the stranger since the Delta is strongly Evangelical, and Santorum was Evangelical while Romney was Mormon...and I'm sure you know that Mormons aren't exactly popular in the Delta.

The only thing I can think of is that as deep as the racist divide certainly is in the Delta, the whites - while living in the "blackest" part of the nation - do sympathize to an extent with the blacks, even if they want nothing to do with them socially. Maybe you can think of a better reason - I'd like to hear any idea you might have about this, because it's puzzled me for years.

Ahlevah · Jan 1, 2018

Glen Contrarian said:
Does South Boston or the LA Unified School District have segregation academies? Mississippi does, even today.

I don't think they called them "segregation academies," but private schools sprang up like weeds to accommodate all of those white kids.

Glen Contrarian said:
Here's another thing you might consider. You point at racism in South Boston and LA and imply it's worse there...but tell me, when a mixed-race couple walk down the street in either of those two places, does anyone really raise an eyebrow? Now go to the Delta - you'll see mixed-race with Asians or Hispanics...but look to see if you can find mixed-race white/black there. I've yet to see a single one in all my years. I'm sure there must be a few - if only a very few - in Cleveland since it's a college town (and as such is generally significantly more liberal than the rest), but I haven't seen it. That doesn't mean that there aren't white/black relationships there - you'll find some mixed-race children - but openly-married black/white couples? I haven't seen a single one in the Delta, the single "blackest" place in America. Ever. And I can promise you that it's not because the blacks refuse to consider such relationships.

I don't mean to imply that racism is worse there overall or that it's no longer a problem here. I'm just saying there are pockets of it all across the country that can match anything I've seen here. I don't know about the Delta, but I've seen a lot more white-black couples than I used to, both here and in other ares of the state in which we've traveled. Incidentally, my wife is Filipino and I'm white. It's never been an issue for us at all. We feel perfectly comfortable here. And people might be surprised to learn that there is a very vibrant GLBTQ community here as well. Granted, the Gulf Coast is a bit more cosmopolitan than other areas of the state, but it still might come as a surprise for anyone who's never visited here.

Hawkeye10 · Jan 1, 2018

A sense of pride is extremely important for doing any building, when we continually run down the South and damn near everything Southern we get in the way.

I like the conversation so far.

Your Star · Jan 1, 2018

The Compson Family.

Glen Contrarian · Jan 1, 2018

Ahlevah said:
I don't think they called them "segregation academies," but private schools sprang up like weeds to accommodate all of those white kids.

I don't mean to imply that racism is worse there overall or that it's no longer a problem here. I'm just saying there are pockets of it all across the country that can match anything I've seen here. I don't know about the Delta, but I've seen a lot more white-black couples than I used to, both here and in other ares of the state in which we've traveled. Incidentally, my wife is Filipino and I'm white. It's never been an issue for us at all. We feel perfectly comfortable here. And people might be surprised to learn that there is a very vibrant GLBTQ community here as well. Granted, the Gulf Coast is a bit more cosmopolitan than other areas of the state, but it still might come as a surprise for anyone who's never visited here.

Hm. My wife is also Filipina, and I have a very good friend - a brother in the Church - who is also married to a Filipina who just moved to Biloxi a few months ago. I wondered for a moment if that might have been you...but then, he's spent almost no time in Mississippi before moving there. So you're probably not him.

I don't know how much time you've spent in PI, but if you have, you'd notice a lot of things that are very similar between there and MS, and the Delta in particular. Chitlins, frog legs, boiled peanuts, mustard greens, Royal Crown cola (but no Moon Pies), Sarsi soda (which is the closest thing to carbonated sassafras tea I've ever tasted), and more - heck, I even found two Creole - yes, Creole - restaurants in Manila. Then there's the use of "po" whenever speaking to an elder, a direct analogue to how much "sir" and "ma'am" are used Down South. One time I even saw a local magazine called "Southern Living"...it was a bit of a surprise, but I soon found that it's a sister magazine of "Northern Living"...and refers to the southern and northern halves of Metro Manila. That might seem strange until one remembers that Metro Manila has all by itself has more people as ARK/LA/MS combined...all in an areal less than half the size of the Delta.

But what I was getting to was Bulacan province. If you go there, it's so much like the Delta - the fields of crops, the tree standing where a shack used to be, kids fishing in what we would have called a bayou...it really is in so many ways going back to the Delta of my youth. And frankly, there's parts of Bulacan that are more modern than the Delta.

What is the problem with Mississippi?

What is the biggest reason for Mississippi's economic failure?

Lack of public investment

Lack of private investment

Brain drain

Tax policy

Something else

More options

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