• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

Do you believe that Donald Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election?

  • Yes

    Votes: 23 31.1%

  • No

    Votes: 33 44.6%

  • I'll wait until there's more information before I decide

    Votes: 18 24.3%
  • Total voters
    74
  • Poll closed .
T

The Lurker

Active member
Joined
Jun 25, 2012
Messages
366
Reaction score
75
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
By that, I mean do you believe that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election? Do you believe that there's any there there?

Personally, I think that it's a distraction made by the Deep State in order to prime Americans into hating Russia, which is seen by the US as being a geopolitical rival. I hope that eventually people come to realize that the mainstream media is duping them, especially CNN.

Edit: Both this article and video represent how I feel about "Russia-gate."

What We Don?t Talk about When We Talk about Russian Hacking

 
Last edited:
I don't know. There's not enough for me to make a determination either way.
 
The Lurker said:
By that, I mean do you believe that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election? Do you believe that there's any there there?

Personally, I think that it's a distraction made by the Deep State in order to prime Americans into hating Russia, which is seen by the US as being a geopolitical rival. I hope that eventually people come to realize that the mainstream media is duping them, especially CNN.

Edit: Both this article and video represent how I feel about "Russia-gate."

What We Don?t Talk about When We Talk about Russian Hacking

Click to expand...


Duped by main stream 'news' (political propaganda) news, yep.
 
TheGoverness said:
I don't know. There's not enough for me to make a determination either way.
Click to expand...
Far as I'm concerned, if the CIA is involved, then that at least makes it suspect.

But anyway, thanks for replying. I respect your opinion.
 
The Lurker said:
By that, I mean do you believe that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election? Do you believe that there's any there there?

Personally, I think that it's a distraction made by the Deep State in order to prime Americans into hating Russia, which is seen by the US as being a geopolitical rival. I hope that eventually people come to realize that the mainstream media is duping them, especially CNN.

Edit: Both this article and video represent how I feel about "Russia-gate."

What We Don?t Talk about When We Talk about Russian Hacking

Click to expand...


We know they attempted to do so. Whether they succeeded is another story.
 
we'll see what Mueller finds out.
 
Colluded, in that Trump and campaign were able to establish a regular back-and-forth with the Russian government?

No.

However colluded in the sense that Trump and campaign saw attempts from Russia via conduits like Wikileaks to inform them of having in their possession stolen emails and "dirt" on Clinton, and then Trump and campaign in turn, trying to obtain that information from those sources?

Ah-yup. What's already come out has nearly made a water-tight case on that.
 
The Lurker said:
By that, I mean do you believe that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election? Do you believe that there's any there there?

Personally, I think that it's a distraction made by the Deep State in order to prime Americans into hating Russia, which is seen by the US as being a geopolitical rival. I hope that eventually people come to realize that the mainstream media is duping them, especially CNN.

Edit: Both this article and video represent how I feel about "Russia-gate."

What We Don?t Talk about When We Talk about Russian Hacking

Click to expand...


I've basically ignored it from the get go. At the beginning it seemed to be more of a sour grapes propaganda effort to diminish or destroy the Trump presidency. But I know very little about it. The indictments issued were on folks and happenings before the Trump campaign began. On this site I keep reading where any day now Mueller will indict or find Trump guilty of collusion with the Ruskies. But they have been saying that since inauguration day.

How much truth is behind it or if it is pure political propaganda, I haven't the slightest idea. I will sit back and watch, listen and wait on Mueller. If guilty, I think nature will take its course. If there isn't anything there, if this turns out to be nothing more than a Democratic ploy. Now that would be interesting. With all the fanfare the media has put out about this, I would think what little trust in the media there is at the moment, close to none will exist if there is no there there.
 
Perotista said:
I've basically ignored it from the get go. At the beginning it seemed to be more of a sour grapes propaganda effort to diminish or destroy the Trump presidency. But I know very little about it. The indictments issued were on folks and happenings before the Trump campaign began. On this site I keep reading where any day now Mueller will indict or find Trump guilty of collusion with the Ruskies. But they have been saying that since inauguration day.

How much truth is behind it or if it is pure political propaganda, I haven't the slightest idea. I will sit back and watch, listen and wait on Mueller. If guilty, I think nature will take its course. If there isn't anything there, if this turns out to be nothing more than a Democratic ploy. Now that would be interesting. With all the fanfare the media has put out about this, I would think what little trust in the media there is at the moment, close to none will exist if there is no there there.
Click to expand...

Don't forget that it was the mainstream media that also pushed the whole "Iran is supporting Al Qaeda" story, even thought that turned out to be false.

Translated Doc Debunks Narrative of Al Qaeda-Iran ‘Alliance’ | The American Conservative
 
The Lurker said:
Don't forget that it was the mainstream media that also pushed the whole "Iran is supporting Al Qaeda" story, even thought that turned out to be false.

Translated Doc Debunks Narrative of Al Qaeda-Iran ‘Alliance’ | The American Conservative
Click to expand...

There's no doubt that the government can utilize the media to get certain notions out there and be believed. Today's media for the most part is a willing accomplice. This Russia thing isn't the government though. It is a willing media that didn't want Trump to win in the first place. The media for the most part want to believe this Russia stuff.

Investigative journalism is passe today. Journalist are too caught up in their own political agenda and or views. It very well could be the media for the most part has become part of the story instead of just reporting the story. They have jumped to conclusions. Regardless of the stripes they wear, the media shows those stripes proudly be they left or right, Republican or Democrat, pro or anti-Trump.

Objective reporting and just reporting the facts, the event by itself without all the opinions given by the reporters and guest to persuade you one way or the other is passe.
 
brothern said:
Colluded, in that Trump and campaign were able to establish a regular back-and-forth with the Russian government?

No.

However colluded in the sense that Trump and campaign saw attempts from Russia via conduits like Wikileaks to inform them of having in their possession stolen emails and "dirt" on Clinton, and then Trump and campaign in turn, trying to obtain that information from those sources?

Ah-yup. What's already come out has nearly made a water-tight case on that.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

1] From the email chains, it's obvious to me collusion has occurred. The emails would seem to be prima facie evidence of this.

2] Since the Trump Towers Russian meeting(s) involves the Trump Campaign seeking Russian influence upon the election, and the Russians attempt to assist the campaign in providing the influencing materials - thereby conspiring to violate federal campaign laws - it would seem that criminal conspiracy took place that day(s).

3] What we still don't know, but Mueller may, is whether the Trump campaign actually received and took possession of the Russian election materials? If so, this would supersede the conspiracy, jumping directly to federal election crime itself.

4] What we also don't know, and again Mueller may, is did the Trump Campaign perform any actions relating to a quid-pro-quo in this or other matters? That Trump's campaign and staff seem to be inundated with Russian contact - contact which they denied and attempted to hide to the point of being guilty of felonious perjury - and that Trump seems to be overtly Russian-friendly to the point of insisting upon changing nearly seven decades of consistent GOP party platform to embrace Russia, would seem to indicate quid-pro-quo is not outside the realm of possibility.

My current tally:

1] Collusion: Proven
2] Conspiracy: Proven
3] Federal Election Crime: T.B.D.
4] Quid Pro Quo: T.B.D.
 
The Lurker said:
By that, I mean do you believe that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election? Do you believe that there's any there there?

Personally, I think that it's a distraction made by the Deep State in order to prime Americans into hating Russia, which is seen by the US as being a geopolitical rival. I hope that eventually people come to realize that the mainstream media is duping them, especially CNN.

Edit: Both this article and video represent how I feel about "Russia-gate."

What We Don?t Talk about When We Talk about Russian Hacking

Click to expand...


In a word...no.
 
Perotista said:
There's no doubt that the government can utilize the media to get certain notions out there and be believed. Today's media for the most part is a willing accomplice. This Russia thing isn't the government though. It is a willing media that didn't want Trump to win in the first place. The media for the most part want to believe this Russia stuff.

Investigative journalism is passe today. Journalist are too caught up in their own political agenda and or views. It very well could be the media for the most part has become part of the story instead of just reporting the story. They have jumped to conclusions. Regardless of the stripes they wear, the media shows those stripes proudly be they left or right, Republican or Democrat, pro or anti-Trump.

Objective reporting and just reporting the facts, the event by itself without all the opinions given by the reporters and guest to persuade you one way or the other is passe.
Click to expand...
Great post; objective, fair, and balanced.

Just as you claim the media should (used to?) be! ;)
 
I voted = wait until there's more information before I decide BUT HAVING SAID THAT in an interview just yesterday Trump said the word 'collusion' 16 times within a 30 minute interview.
What does that say about Trump? Seems Trump has a lot of 'collusion' on his mind :lol:
The REALLY TELLING thing that Trump said is posted as my (current) signature ................. "There is no collusion, and even if there was, it’s not a crime." :shock: WTF? Is Trump serious? ............
 
Much of this is speculation, but I'm fairly confident that there's an angle where Trump was dealing with shifty (which is to say any large and successful) businesses in Russia and likely laundering money and/or accepting loans from them (same thing,) so I'd guess he is compromised in that way.

I doubt very much that they coordinated strategy very directly, or in a way that is provably illegal. It makes perfect sense the Russians would prefer Trump over Clinton, having the above history.

It also makes sense to me that they would use what PR clout they can muster to shift the election in that direction. It's just hard to decide if it had any impact, or if it was illegal. We do the same all over the world. Just look at what we're dealing with today because we just had to jerk around with Iran in the 50s.

For me concluding Trump is a ****bag and dirty businessman is easy. Concluding there's anything worth exposing on the Russian connection is not.

What would we get out of the deal? We aren't going to impeach any time soon, whatever is exposed, and it's not clear that that would be in our best interests anyhow.
 
brothern said:
Colluded, in that Trump and campaign were able to establish a regular back-and-forth with the Russian government?

No.

However colluded in the sense that Trump and campaign saw attempts from Russia via conduits like Wikileaks to inform them of having in their possession stolen emails and "dirt" on Clinton, and then Trump and campaign in turn, trying to obtain that information from those sources?

Ah-yup. What's already come out has nearly made a water-tight case on that.
Click to expand...

Actually, none of that's illegal
 
Chomsky said:
Exactly.

1] From the email chains, it's obvious to me collusion has occurred. The emails would seem to be prima facie evidence of this.

2] Since the Trump Towers Russian meeting(s) involves the Trump Campaign seeking Russian influence upon the election, and the Russians attempt to assist the campaign in providing the influencing materials - thereby conspiring to violate federal campaign laws - it would seem that criminal conspiracy took place that day(s).

3] What we still don't know, but Mueller may, is whether the Trump campaign actually received and took possession of the Russian election materials? If so, this would supersede the conspiracy, jumping directly to federal election crime itself.

4] What we also don't know, and again Mueller may, is did the Trump Campaign perform any actions relating to a quid-pro-quo in this or other matters? That Trump's campaign and staff seem to be inundated with Russian contact - contact which they denied and attempted to hide to the point of being guilty of felonious perjury - and that Trump seems to be overtly Russian-friendly to the point of insisting upon changing nearly seven decades of consistent GOP party platform to embrace Russia, would seem to indicate quid-pro-quo is not outside the realm of possibility.

My current tally:

1] Collusion: Proven
2] Conspiracy: Proven
3] Federal Election Crime: T.B.D.
4] Quid Pro Quo: T.B.D.
Click to expand...



You know, growing up in high school in the US we were fed about 25 straight tons of the perilous nature of democracy and that it had to be defended against all incursions as it is the very essence of democracy.
One of the "enemies" to democracy at that time was the peace movement, another blacks, and the third hippies.
Today, you have a president who has violated the very concept of an American-only election. I am certain in my heart had this happened with a Democrat, the right would be in apoplexy..

The fact they are not shows that all the wrapping of oneself in the flag, protecting democracy, law and order and every other "American principle" are no more than a currency used to fool the people.

The hypocrisy that has come out of all this is stupendous.

I hope the Democrats are hiring every basement hacker out side the country they can find for future elections....the Repulsicans have not one moral pencil thin reed to stand on.
 
The Lurker said:
By that, I mean do you believe that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election? Do you believe that there's any there there?

Personally, I think that it's a distraction made by the Deep State in order to prime Americans into hating Russia, which is seen by the US as being a geopolitical rival. I hope that eventually people come to realize that the mainstream media is duping them, especially CNN.

Edit: Both this article and video represent how I feel about "Russia-gate."

What We Don?t Talk about When We Talk about Russian Hacking

Click to expand...


If I were the Russians, this might well be a story I would foster just as I would have supported intervention in the election. It makes sense.
 
Chomsky said:
Great post; objective, fair, and balanced.

Just as you claim the media should (used to?) be! ;)
Click to expand...

The media has always had a bias. But that bias was very covert and those in the media tried to hide it. The idea was just report on what is happening and keep one personal opinions out of it. Not any more. We have cable news channels dedicated to one party or the other and they slant their news that way depending on which party or ideology they have.

I do think if one realizes this, one can shift through all the propaganda and end up with the news story without all the slants presented. It isn't easy, but can be done. When that doesn't work, just sit back and wait. Sooner or later one or more of the news channels will be proven wrong.
 
brothern said:
Colluded, in that Trump and campaign were able to establish a regular back-and-forth with the Russian government?

No.

However colluded in the sense that Trump and campaign saw attempts from Russia via conduits like Wikileaks to inform them of having in their possession stolen emails and "dirt" on Clinton, and then Trump and campaign in turn, trying to obtain that information from those sources?

Ah-yup. What's already come out has nearly made a water-tight case on that.
Click to expand...

The Clintons actually paid for Russian involvement.
 
The Lurker said:
By that, I mean do you believe that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election? Do you believe that there's any there there?

Personally, I think that it's a distraction made by the Deep State in order to prime Americans into hating Russia, which is seen by the US as being a geopolitical rival. I hope that eventually people come to realize that the mainstream media is duping them, especially CNN.

Edit: Both this article and video represent how I feel about "Russia-gate."

What We Don?t Talk about When We Talk about Russian Hacking

Click to expand...


If Trump didn't collude with Russia, he's doing a hell of a job of convincing the world that he's guilty anyway. But otherwise, this:

Helix said:
we'll see what Mueller finds out.
Click to expand...
 
Chomsky said:
From such a partisan source, I'd need to see the full email and associated context before, making an informed evaluation of this claim.
Click to expand...
Did you read the entire article? Did you see the video?

Not attacking you or anything, just asking.
 
The Lurker said:
Did you read the entire article? Did you see the video?

Not attacking you or anything, just asking.
Click to expand...
No problem, I realize you hold no animus in your question.

I read the article, but it only had their rewritten excerpts from the email. But no, I didn't watch the video. I'll check it out, if it's not too long.

My only point, was: I generally can't make an informed decision concerning veracity, without the full & larger context.

Edit: The 18 second video in the Twitter post? That's Mark Zurckerberg!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom