View Poll Results: Do you believe that Donald Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election?

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  • Yes

    23 31.08%
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    33 44.59%
  • I'll wait until there's more information before I decide

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Thread: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

  1. #21
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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    Colluded, in that Trump and campaign were able to establish a regular back-and-forth with the Russian government?

    No.

    However colluded in the sense that Trump and campaign saw attempts from Russia via conduits like Wikileaks to inform them of having in their possession stolen emails and "dirt" on Clinton, and then Trump and campaign in turn, trying to obtain that information from those sources?

    Ah-yup. What's already come out has nearly made a water-tight case on that.
    The Clintons actually paid for Russian involvement.
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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lurker View Post
    They're now targeting people "of Russian nationality or Russian descent."

    EXPLOSIVE Senate email says anyone "of Russian nationality or Russian descent" will now be targeted

    Things are getting ugly.
    From such a partisan source, I'd need to see the full email and associated context before, making an informed evaluation of this claim.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lurker View Post
    By that, I mean do you believe that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election? Do you believe that there's any there there?

    Personally, I think that it's a distraction made by the Deep State in order to prime Americans into hating Russia, which is seen by the US as being a geopolitical rival. I hope that eventually people come to realize that the mainstream media is duping them, especially CNN.

    Edit: Both this article and video represent how I feel about "Russia-gate."

    What We Don?t Talk about When We Talk about Russian Hacking

    If Trump didn't collude with Russia, he's doing a hell of a job of convincing the world that he's guilty anyway. But otherwise, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    we'll see what Mueller finds out.

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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    From such a partisan source, I'd need to see the full email and associated context before, making an informed evaluation of this claim.
    Did you read the entire article? Did you see the video?

    Not attacking you or anything, just asking.

  5. #25
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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lurker View Post
    Did you read the entire article? Did you see the video?

    Not attacking you or anything, just asking.
    No problem, I realize you hold no animus in your question.

    I read the article, but it only had their rewritten excerpts from the email. But no, I didn't watch the video. I'll check it out, if it's not too long.

    My only point, was: I generally can't make an informed decision concerning veracity, without the full & larger context.

    Edit: The 18 second video in the Twitter post? That's Mark Zurckerberg!
    Last edited by Chomsky; 12-29-17 at 04:35 PM.
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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    My current tally:

    1] Collusion: Proven
    2] Conspiracy: Proven
    3] Federal Election Crime: T.B.D.
    4] Quid Pro Quo: T.B.D.
    unless you are including this under one of the above and i didn't catch it, i would add :

    5] Obstruction of justice : TBD

    sometimes, it's the coverup that becomes a prosecutable issue. once again, we don't know, and we'll have to wait on Mueller's report.

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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    No problem, I realize you hold no animus in your question.

    I read the article, but it only had their rewritten excerpts from the email. But no, I didn't watch the video. I'll check it out, if it's not too long.

    My only point, was: I generally can't make an informed decision concerning veracity, without the full & larger context.

    Edit: The 18 second video in the Twitter post? That's Mark Zurckerberg!
    It doesn't look like Mark Zuckerberg.

    I think the context is clear. The mainstream media has always demonized Russia and so has the US government. It's not hard to believe that they're going to distract the public by saying that people of Russian descent or nationality are suspicious. I don't know what else you need. The e-mail is pretty clear.

  8. #28
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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually, none of that's illegal
    It is. I would write up a post, but Chomsky nails the explanation in his reply. See point #2. A criminal conspiracy is a plan made by a person(s) to commit a crime, and then takes steps to complete the act. The crime itself does not need to be committed. Ex, an accountant who plans to embezzle funds from his employer by altering system records, but is caught before withdrawing the funds.

    Additionally where Chomsky is also correct is that we don't yet know if Trump's campaign actually obtained Podesta's stolen emails or other information. If so this ratchets up tenfold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Exactly.

    1] From the email chains, it's obvious to me collusion has occurred. The emails would seem to be prima facie evidence of this.

    2] Since the Trump Towers Russian meeting(s) involves the Trump Campaign seeking Russian influence upon the election, and the Russians attempt to assist the campaign in providing the influencing materials - thereby conspiring to violate federal campaign laws - it would seem that criminal conspiracy took place that day(s).

    3] What we still don't know, but Mueller may, is whether the Trump campaign actually received and took possession of the Russian election materials? If so, this would supersede the conspiracy, jumping directly to federal election crime itself.

    4] What we also don't know, and again Mueller may, is did the Trump Campaign perform any actions relating to a quid-pro-quo in this or other matters? That Trump's campaign and staff seem to be inundated with Russian contact - contact which they denied and attempted to hide to the point of being guilty of felonious perjury - and that Trump seems to be overtly Russian-friendly to the point of insisting upon changing nearly seven decades of consistent GOP party platform to embrace Russia, would seem to indicate quid-pro-quo is not outside the realm of possibility.

    My current tally:

    1] Collusion: Proven
    2] Conspiracy: Proven
    3] Federal Election Crime: T.B.D.
    4] Quid Pro Quo: T.B.D.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    unless you are including this under one of the above and i didn't catch it, i would add :

    5] Obstruction of justice : TBD

    sometimes, it's the coverup that becomes a prosecutable issue. once again, we don't know, and we'll have to wait on Mueller's report.
    Yes, fair point. And I also suppose if Don Jr. used the hacked password he was given by WikiLeaks to gain access into the server of the opposition PAC, that may be a cyber crime or further election crime too.

    But I think it's important to remember, that of the 5 listed items we're discussing, I believe only two seem to be reasonably ascertained --> collusion & conspiracy.

    Collusion though, as we all seem to have learned from Trump and his lawyers & surrogates, does not necessarily imply a criminal act per se, as terrible as that may sound.

    And the Trump Tower's conspiracy may have gone no further than Trump's campaign attempting, but not succeeding, in getting the goods on Clinton.

    But even if not culminated by the exchange of Russian supplied election materials, I would argue that the known facts of the Trump Towers meeting are enough to meet the technical definition of conspiracy. We see this same bar used in reverse police stings for drugs & hookers. Those individuals nabbed in stings are charged with "conspiracy to possess narcotics" or "conspiring to commit prostitution", and they do indeed get found guilty and subsequently sentenced! Regardless of their not getting their drugs or hooker.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Do you believe in "Russia-gate?"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lurker View Post
    By that, I mean do you believe that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 presidential election? Do you believe that there's any there there?
    No I do not. Making up nonsense about the president and nitpicking over stupid **** is what sore losers do every presidential election. When Obama was in Office sore losers claimed he wasn't born in the US and a secret Muslim . sore losers nitpicked over Obama having a marine hold an umbrella for him as though somehow all the ****ty work details that marine had to do was not degrading but holding an umbrella for the president somehow is. They acted like they were somehow the hosts of Queer Eye for the straight guy show by nitpicking over Obama wearing some color of clothing on some obscure holiday. They nitpicked over Obama not properly saluting as though that is something every civilian knows how to do.They bitched about about not wearing an American flag pin even though many of them suck the testicles of multinational corporations and sold our jobs overseas. When Bush was president many sore losers did similar ****. They made up stories of him going awol, stealing the election, masterminding 911, claim he lied about Iraq even though everyone and their mom has been saying the same **** even before he was in office, wanted to name sewage plant after him, constantly protested outside his home in Texas, and all sorts of other ****.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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