View Poll Results: Is a "Free Market" System Sensible?

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    19 55.88%
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    5 14.71%
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Thread: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

  1. #11
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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    Quote Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
    A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    Society does not necessarily always value rational things, and others are able to profit tremendously off of the stupidity/ignorance/ect. of the masses that support it. Examples of this are Musicians, actors, athletes, celebrities ect. ect. that in a rational society, are definitely not necessarily more deserving than an Engineer for instance (as our modern world is based on Science and Tech, not Rap/Justin Beiber-type Pop music, Kim Kardashian's ass, ect. ect).

    Consider, a huge portion of the nation's wealth is being put into sectors of society that serve no real productive purpose/lack in value while areas of high value such as intellectual pursuits are dramatically underfunded and discouraged (in many respects). This is due to society at large sharing the same collective delusions and valuing trivial bullsh't over serious, productive endeavors. This will always incentivize and produce a non-rational society unless structures are fundamentally challenged/altered.

    Lets take Professional athletes as the first example:

    NBA- Out of 456 players in the league in 2017-18, 120 make $10,000,000 or more for one years worth of work and 389 make more than $1,000,000. The minimum salary for a 1st year player is over $800,000 per year. Links here:
    A. ESPN: The Worldwide Leader in Sports
    B. Minimum Salary Scales under the 2017 CBA

    NFL- Minimum salary for 1st year players is over $450,000 per year. 656 players make at least $1,000,000 per year or more. Links here:
    A. NFL Minimum Salaries for 2017 | The Daily Spot
    B. https://www.pro-football-reference.c...ers/salary.htm

    MLB- 112 players make $10,000,000 or more per year. Out of 251 players total, 240 make $1,000,000 or more per year

    Actors and musicians that "make it" get huge salaries and the ones that don't get salaries on par with other "common" jobs.

    Now, contrast that to absolutely necessary fields such as Science & Maths, Engineering, Architecture, Construction Work, Waste Management, Medical Doctors, Teachers, Repairs, Farming, Electricians, Labor Intensive work, ect. ect. and fields that, although not necessary, should be prioritized/held in high esteem in a non-superficial, deep, passionate, engaged society (i.e. rational) such as Literature, History, Philosophy, Art, ect. ect.

    Consider the process of becoming a Scientist (which, depending on the subject matter, is perhaps the chief field pushing innovation forward that makes all of our lives orders of magnitude more comfortable than our ancestors could have ever dreamed of--as well as revealing deep truths about the nature of our existence and the universe). One must first pay large sums of money to attend a school for 4-5 years, then proceed to further schooling for another 5-7 years (while attempting to live off of a stipend of $15,000-$25,000 or so per year--i.e.very poor), then must find a post-doc position for another 3-7 years or so which is typically only $20,000-$35,000 a year, by which time a person has been nearly dirt poor for a 15 years or more and then, finally, may find a research/professorship position (however there is absolutely no guarantee since the funding is so low due to the irrationality I have discussed--thus competition is fierce) or they very well may end up empty handed (no Science research job and/or professorship) even after that approaching two decade long process. Here are some of the fundamental questions involved:

    Why in the Hell do we treat some of the greatest minds amongst us doing work that is absolutely imperative so poorly? Why do we treat others doing necessary work (e.g. Construction Workers, sewer management, ect.) so poorly? Why are we putting people who do not contribute anything to the productivity of society and/or our expanding knowledge about ourselves/the Universe up on a pedestal (e.g. Katy Perry, Kardashians, Pro Athletes, ect. ect.)?

    Do you see any problems with this, or do you believe that the Market is the best determining agent in matters such as this?
    What do you want, socialism? That's failed everywhere it has been tried.

  2. #12
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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    *sigh*

    I get tired of this, too. Are entertainers *worth* the same as doctors and such? No. Their contribution to society is hardly critical. But then they have millions of people willing to pay outrageous prices to watch them work. Sorry, it's demand.

    But even me, at my lowly "dime a dozen" profession, can go to the store and have literally dozens and dozens of tasty breakfast cereal choices at my disposal, all for me to easily purchase at my whim. And that's just one example. No other system provides this. Entertainers may get overpaid, but my life is pretty damn good, too.
    Roy L. Fuchs: I'll tell you something. This country is going to the dogs.
    You know, it used to be when you bought a politician, that son of a bitch stayed bought.

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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    Hello xMathFanx,

    I understand what you are saying and actually agree with the the principles you lay forth. Someone bounces a basketball or throws a touchdown pass and they make $10 million or more per year....a research scientist looking for a cure for cancer that went to school for 12-14 years ...racked up debt in some cases makes a six figure or below income. In a perfect world where reason prevails and controls every aspect of everyone's life ....this would be the rule. But here's the problem; you are comparing apples with oranges. Many scientist and researchers are funded by the government or have funds that go to the institution they work for...not all...there are exceptions but when comparing that to 'entertainment' you get into trying to mix two species. People peal out money to go to NFL games and NBA games because they like or enjoy the entertainment. There's no entertainment watching a research scientist find the 'God particle' or discover a warp engine to go to the extremes of our galaxy. Now, the free market has made millionaires of people that would by all practicality be making modest salaries. These enterprises create income for other's to enjoy such as advertising, product sales for clothing and/or food, drink...etc...it goes on and on. Government can't create those jobs and those jobs provide tax money to go to the doctors, scientist, teachers, etc. Really, I agree....some make way too much money...and I don't buy their tickets or watch them on ESPN. Be it good or be it bad...the market makes the rules in a free society and until a better way is tried and proven....for my part will stick with it. When it gets out of wack enough, it will correct itself.

    best regards,
    seax

  4. #14
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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddy View Post
    I get tired of people ragging on athletes and actors for what they earn. The reason Michael Jordan made so much is few people in the world could do what he did at the level he did it. He brought in millions X millions more than he was paid.
    Did you even read my post that laid out the example of Physicists? There are only about 10,000 Physicist in the world, even though Physics research has been the "God-Father" of our modern society which is based on harnessing Maths & Science to useful ends. There is actually hardly anyone in the world (as of current) that understands that material and is capable of performing that kind of work (which is absolutely necessary for society to continue functioning and/or progress). And look how we treat them... You are committing the same flawed reasoning that I am condemning by taking this for granted..
    Last edited by xMathFanx; 12-29-17 at 02:03 AM.

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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye10 View Post
    Playing basketball is fun, people should play all the basketball they want......but it is not very productive to society, these mega millionaires who entertain us. We need to get some bang for our bucks, we the society do. When money is frivolously spent bad things follow usually.
    How do you know? Sports promote physical fitness and are enjoyed by millions. Maybe spending money going to a concert or ball game isn't your idea of responsible spending but that's just you. I was greatly inspired by the first Star Wars movie, and have been inspired by many other movies. We also learn from entertainment. And sports is a great outlet. Some of my best memories are taking my kids to ball games.

    The great thing about capitalism, the free market, and democracy is everyone gets to spend their money as they see fit. Well, the money the government doesn't confiscate, that is. The market sets value. It's not dictated by someone like you.

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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    What do you want, socialism? That's failed everywhere it has been tried.
    That is not what I am arguing for.

    "Capitalism" as it is generally used, is consistent with both a "Free Market" system and various forms of "Constrained/Regulated Market" systems. I am arguing for a form of "Constrained Market" system (in the short term) as I think they still have usefulness and are feasible to implement in the current climate/Zeitgeist. However, it is important to note that the type of "Constrained Market" system I am proposing is very different than typically conceived of by people such as Sanders, Green Party, ect. ect. (which I will elaborate on).

    First note, many people's distractions also fall in line with what is currently incentivized/glorified/respected/honored in our society. Many people will always have trouble "breaking the mold" of societal norms (in my view) because there is good reason to believe that average range human intelligence or below is only intelligent enough to understand the rules of the society for which they were born into or otherwise are later introduced to and become acclimated with (although even this, the latter, falls into the higher range of average human intelligence compared to the former). Now, even with this dynamic, we can produce a highly healthy, rational, productive, intellectual, creative society if the framework is properly structured (e.g. think Star Trek).

    Second, consider, athletes, actors, ect. is that they are not what allows society to continue to function. In fact, they are taking advantage of the "toys" provided by the very few Scientists and Engineers, held together by the necessary labor intensive workers, and are simultaneously sh'tting on these people (even if they are not aware of it). Furthermore, it is really inverting the pyramid of who works harder and allows society to function. Construction workers are so much more important than Baseball players even though our current system would lead an outside observer to conclude the opposite (based on factors such as wealth, status, resources, living comfort, ect.)

    Now, the economy already is "rigged", so all you would have to do is "rig" it in a different direction (as well as the imperative of getting people more interested in productive, creative, activities rather than frivolousness--note, rigging the economy would in it of itself shift peoples interests due to the incentive structure). That is, jobs that have high utility value (e.g. "Blue Collar" laborers, Architects, Scientists, ect.) objectively contribute far more to society than Justin Bieber (although the current system incentive structure would suggest that this is the other way around). The current Market system is based on preference value while I am arguing for a utility value system.

    It would still be a market system, there would still be an abundance of greedy, self-interested people, ect. ect, However, by necessity, the work they would be doing if they wanted to increase their wealth would be productive and actually benefit society rather than frivolous--e.g. Models would not be paid much at all in such a society while being a Construction worker, many "Blue Collar" intensive labor, Scientist, Architect, ect. ect. would be paid well (just nearly flip everything on its head, roughly speaking)). This is why I said such a system is feasible in the short-term given the current climate/Zeitgeist. It would essentially be like a Social Democratic society but rather than the type of "Inverse Capitalism" that Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein/Green Party, ect. promote, it would be based on a productivity/utility value incentive structure rather than the preference value structure that we currently operate on.

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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    As compared to what, exactly? I voted yes when compared to something like China has.
    I'm not comparing it China or even any other system currently in place (although there are strong similarities with Social Democratic systems--the most relevant factor is switching off from a preference value system to a utility value system, and having the economy "constrained/regulated" to incentivize this dynamic. Please see my other posts for more information.

  8. #18
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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    America and most of the world doesnt operate in a free market system. It's been a mixed economy for decades. Basic Econ 101.

  9. #19
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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddy View Post
    How do you know? Sports promote physical fitness and are enjoyed by millions. Maybe spending money going to a concert or ball game isn't your idea of responsible spending but that's just you. I was greatly inspired by the first Star Wars movie, and have been inspired by many other movies. We also learn from entertainment. And sports is a great outlet. Some of my best memories are taking my kids to ball games.
    It is objectively factual, as I have already explained. That is:

    Consider for a moment if society had to start from scratch tomorrow. Now, if you want to survive there are certain necessities that are required such as food, protection, shelter, ect. This requires contributors, at minimum people who find and prepare food, construct/find some form of shelter that gives some level of protection from the environment and/or other animals, care for the young, ect. This is very rudimentary however it still requires people to step-up and work, not guys that simply goof around and wrestle with each other all day (i.e. athletes) or perpetually gawking over some hot chick's ass to the point that you give them all your resources (i.e. celebrity culture).

    Now, unless you want to live in a perpetually primitive state (i.e. quasi Anarcho-Primitivism), than you require people of practical intelligence (i.e. architects, engineers, scientists, ect.) to plan and organize with workers willing and able to put such plans into motion (i.e. construction workers, "blue collar" laborers, farmers, repairs, waste management, ect.). After a certain level of advancement is achieved, then this will sufficiently free things up for other creative/intellectual work (i.e. artists, other intellectual pursuits that lack practical application but nevertheless are highly enriching, ect.). Even then, society does not require much of what goes on in Celebrity culture and the like (e.g. think of ET network, reality TV, ect. ect.) which serves no purpose to society other than being harmful.

    Note, our Modern World only feels disconnected from the thought experiment described above, however this remains our situation--we are just starting from a framework that is already in place rather than scratch. Now, is it a scientific fact that describing some courses of action for society rather than others is more rational?--No. However, that doesn't mean that it is entirely arbitrary either and anyone with even the most rudimentary Philosophical sophistication would comprehend that. We need to (at least) start incentivizing people to use their Frontal Lobes (if not demanding it)--you know, behave like Homo Sapiens rather than Bonobo Apes (the latter being quite seriously how our current society is largely structured around/product of and this is how people largely behave in a "Free Market" as well as many versions of "Constrained Markets" that don't fundamentally challenge the underlying dynamics at work)

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    Re: A "Free Market" System is Not Sensible

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    America and most of the world doesnt operate in a free market system. It's been a mixed economy for decades. Basic Econ 101.
    I'm well aware of that and have actually already addressed it

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