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Should public defenders be given equal money and resources for criminal trials as the prosecution?

Should public defenders be given equal money and resources for criminal trials as the prosecution?

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radcen

radcen

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Should public defenders be given equal money and resources for criminal trials as the prosecution?
 
radcen said:
Should public defenders be given equal money and resources for criminal trials as the prosecution?
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A few years ago, our business was ruined because of a flatly false accusation by a disgruntled worker. We couldn't afford a lawyer, so it was me against the Assistant Attorney General...who used every trick in the book to keep me from being able to present the evidence that needed to be presented. We lost - indeed, the one who represents himself in court has a fool for a client...but we couldn't afford a lawyer. But if we could have, we could have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that three state workers flat-out lied during their investigation, and that the disgruntled worker also lied. But I wasn't skilled enough to get the evidence entered in as needed.

So...yeah, both sides need equal funding. Otherwise, innocent people get screwed. We certainly did.
 
I think we need to look at reasons why lawyers cost so much in general. A good lawyer makes a huge difference, but he/she is expensive. Legal costs these days are worse than healthcare costs. State prosecutors and PDs get pulled into private firms a lot because of this.
 
As a factor of hourly rate, yes. They might have a different number of cases going on at a given time, though.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
A few years ago, our business was ruined because of a flatly false accusation by a disgruntled worker. We couldn't afford a lawyer, so it was me against the Assistant Attorney General...who used every trick in the book to keep me from being able to present the evidence that needed to be presented. We lost - indeed, the one who represents himself in court has a fool for a client...but we couldn't afford a lawyer. But if we could have, we could have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that three state workers flat-out lied during their investigation, and that the disgruntled worker also lied. But I wasn't skilled enough to get the evidence entered in as needed.

So...yeah, both sides need equal funding. Otherwise, innocent people get screwed. We certainly did.
Click to expand...
I once witnessed something like this. A lawyer facing off against a lone person used all kinds of random courtroom protocol to essentially shut down the lone person. And the judge went along.

I do not believe the judge should pick sides, but I also don't think that a judge protecting a person from being run over just because they don't intimately know protocol is picking sides. I would see nothing wrong with a judge admonishing the lawyer and telling them to cool it so that both sides could be heard.
 
Oh HELL yes!

The prosecutor's office has significantly higher salaries and more legal personnel, plus larger staff support.

Then they have State and local paid resources, including coroner's, psychiatric personnel, CSI, police assets, and expert witnesses on retainer...not to mention access to additional funding from asset forfeiture "profits."

Also access to FBI resources.

Public Defenders have small support staffs, about 1/2 the number of attorney's needed for the case loads, and perhaps 2 or 3 full-time investigators, and small budgets to pay expert witnesses which must be allocated to the major crimes cases (murder, sex offenses, felony theft).
 
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Glen Contrarian said:
A few years ago, our business was ruined because of a flatly false accusation by a disgruntled worker. We couldn't afford a lawyer, so it was me against the Assistant Attorney General...who used every trick in the book to keep me from being able to present the evidence that needed to be presented. We lost - indeed, the one who represents himself in court has a fool for a client...but we couldn't afford a lawyer. But if we could have, we could have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that three state workers flat-out lied during their investigation, and that the disgruntled worker also lied. But I wasn't skilled enough to get the evidence entered in as needed.

So...yeah, both sides need equal funding. Otherwise, innocent people get screwed. We certainly did.
Click to expand...

Be glad it wasn’t the federal government with its unlimited resources gleefully financially destroying you. You only plead not guilty if your are very rich or indigent.
 
What, money grows on trees now?

Prosecutors need to do a better job, that's the answer.
 
radcen said:
I believe you are correct. Would a more workable option be to limit the money and resources of the prosecution so that the playing field is more equal?
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That might lead to scrimping on tests that could have exonerated the suspect. Remember much of the money spent to convict is actually spent beforehand. And DNA exonerates as well as damns.

Now the barking seal "professional experts" can get costly during the trial.

ETA - A family friend was a Prosecutor during his normal working hours and did PD work on the side. The vast majority of his time was taken in simple Plea for time served + a small fine. Wrist slap stuff. He said often he would see a defendant as a PD one month and be prosecuting the same guy the next month. He said he always tried to keep a neutral demeanor though it all.
 
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Captain Adverse said:
Oh HELL yes!

The prosecutor's office has significantly higher salaries and more legal personnel, plus larger staff support.

Then they have State and local paid resources, including coroner's, psychiatric personnel, CSI, police assets, and expert witnesses on retainer...not to mention access to additional funding from asset forfeiture "profits."

Also access to FBI resources.

Public Defenders have small support staffs, about 1/2 the number of attorney's needed for the case loads, and perhaps 2 or 3 full-time investigators, and small budgets to pay expert witnesses which must be allocated to the major crimes cases (murder, sex offenses, felony theft).
Click to expand...

They are still part of the local govt. like the prosecutors aren't they? Why can't they share the services of govt. employees such as the police, coroner, etc.?
 
radcen said:
Should public defenders be given equal money and resources for criminal trials as the prosecution?
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Equal protection under the law?

Meh, in practice today that concept is lip service.

They *absolutely* should, IMHO.
 
holbritter said:
They are still part of the local govt. like the prosecutors aren't they? Why can't they share the services of govt. employees such as the police, coroner, etc.?
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It is my opinion that ALL reports and evidence should be openly shared. Not requests necessary. No worrying about what *might* help the other side. Open discovery.

For example: One side orders a DNA test. Results are sent automatically to BOTH sides and at the same time. No questions asked, no blocking it.

INO, this would do two things: 1) It would help make the money gap less drastic, and 2) It would help find the truth, instead of just a win.
 
chuckiechan said:
Be glad it wasn’t the federal government with its unlimited resources gleefully financially destroying you. You only plead not guilty if your are very rich or indigent.
Click to expand...

As it was, it was the hardest thing I've ever done - I was (in my opinion) clinically obsessed with the case. I had to be physically active doing something else in order to stop thinking about the case - otherwise, I literally spent nearly every waking moment thinking about it, about the evidence, the questions to ask, the points to make. Now I sometimes - sometimes - go a few days without thinking about it and getting silently furious at the injustice.

But it's worse for my wife - she lost her livelihood and her dream, and that's what pisses me off more than anything else. I have to remind myself every time I think about it to NOT consider revenge, not ever...because our life is still good, and I continually remind myself that living well is indeed the best revenge.

But what bothers me most of all is that all we lost was my wife's livelihood and her dream and a couple years of our lives. How much more is the pain that is felt by those whose family members, whose sons and daughters are wrongfully killed by police? That would never lessen, never go away. That's one of the main lessons I take from this whole fiasco...that things could be a hell of a lot worse.
 
radcen said:
I once witnessed something like this. A lawyer facing off against a lone person used all kinds of random courtroom protocol to essentially shut down the lone person. And the judge went along.

I do not believe the judge should pick sides, but I also don't think that a judge protecting a person from being run over just because they don't intimately know protocol is picking sides. I would see nothing wrong with a judge admonishing the lawyer and telling them to cool it so that both sides could be heard.
Click to expand...

Hindsight's 20/20, and looking back, I was two questions away from winning the case, questions that would have proved that the state workers lied through their teeth...but I didn't ask those questions, and so we lost. I hate it, but it can't be appealed.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Oh HELL yes!

The prosecutor's office has significantly higher salaries and more legal personnel, plus larger staff support.

Then they have State and local paid resources, including coroner's, psychiatric personnel, CSI, police assets, and expert witnesses on retainer...not to mention access to additional funding from asset forfeiture "profits."

Also access to FBI resources.

Public Defenders have small support staffs, about 1/2 the number of attorney's needed for the case loads, and perhaps 2 or 3 full-time investigators, and small budgets to pay expert witnesses which must be allocated to the major crimes cases (murder, sex offenses, felony theft).
Click to expand...

For all the times you and I disagree, it's good to see that we can agree on this!
 
radcen said:
Should public defenders be given equal money and resources for criminal trials as the prosecution?
Click to expand...

In many places they are....at least equal pay. Resources are a different story. Prosecutors get a lot of grants and donations that public defenders don't get. That results in a definite advantage for prosecutors.
 
Fledermaus said:
That might lead to scrimping on tests that could have exonerated the suspect. Remember much of the money spent to convict is actually spent beforehand. And DNA exonerates as well as damns.

Now the barking seal "professional experts" can get costly during the trial.

ETA - A family friend was a Prosecutor during his normal working hours and did PD work on the side. The vast majority of his time was taken in simple Plea for time served + a small fine. Wrist slap stuff. He said often he would see a defendant as a PD one month and be prosecuting the same guy the next month. He said he always tried to keep a neutral demeanor though it all.
Click to expand...

If your friend truly was doing that....he was violating a number of ethics rules. You cannot work as both a prosecutor and a defense attorney at the same time. Could you be mistaken? It wouldn't violate ethics if he did defense work on civil cases...but he couild not do defense work in a criminal case while serving as a prosecutor.
 
I absolutely think that more money should be available to public defenders. Why not? The defendants should be able to have decent representation as well. Usually the public defenders are overworked, underpaid and struggling to keep up with their case load. They need help. The defendants deserve that much.
 
disneydude said:
If your friend truly was doing that....he was violating a number of ethics rules. You cannot work as both a prosecutor and a defense attorney at the same time. Could you be mistaken? It wouldn't violate ethics if he did defense work on civil cases...but he couild not do defense work in a criminal case while serving as a prosecutor.
Click to expand...

It is possible as it was years ago. And he is past tense so I cannot verify.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
What, money grows on trees now?

Prosecutors need to do a better job, that's the answer.
Click to expand...

If we can't spend the money necessary for a fair trial we should just remove that part of the constitution.
 
Doesn't discovery cover this?

Superfly said:
I absolutely think that more money should be available to public defenders. Why not? The defendants should be able to have decent representation as well. Usually the public defenders are overworked, underpaid and struggling to keep up with their case load. They need help. The defendants deserve that much.
Click to expand...

In criminal cases? I thought that the discovery process was meant to speed up the process of trial or pleading to a lesser charge, but also to even out the disparity in resources between the defense & the prosecution. That isn't the case? Of course, in the US, you have to wade through each state's laws on the subject, & then @ the federal level, you have yet another set of laws to deal with.

I understand that the process is mutual - both sides have to share evidence, but work product - analysis of the evidence, the attorneys' strategies, & related, does not have to be shared.
 
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