"Clean" Bills

A few years back, a government shut down was threatened with Democrats accusing Republicans of being the ones responsible if it happened because they refused to pass a "CLEAN" budget bill that did not include a requirement to defund an executive action President Obama had instituted regarding Immigration.

Now, a government shut down is being threatened with Republicans/Trump accusing Democrats of being the ones responsible if it happens because they refuse to pass a "CLEAN" budget bill that does not include immigration regulation protecting former DACA covered individuals.

In 2015, Republicans decried the notion that a "Clean" bill had to be passed and suggested Democrats scoffing at a passed budget bill would be responsible for shutting the government down, not Republicans.

In 2017, Democrats are decrying the notion that a "Clean" bill has to be passed and suggest Republicans are the ones truly at fault for refusing to compromise in an effort to get it done.

So what say you? Is it incumbent on congress to pass "clean" budget bills? If they refuse to pass a "clean" bill, is it the responsibility of the party in power for the government shutting down? Or does the majority party not getting on board with the "compromise" and insisting on a "Clean" bill bare the responsibility?

Or was it totally the Rep/Dem parties fault in 2015 and now its equally their fault this time too!

Calls for a "clean" bill are exactly the same as being worried about the "deficit" -- it's simply a way to attack a measure you disagree with politically while trying to seem high-minded and objective about it. You don't actually care if it's "clean"; you just don't want it to carry the measures it does.

As for government shutdowns, we've seen enough of those to know that most people couldn't care less if the government shuts down or not. There's no political penalty to it.

Zyphlin said:

Or was it totally the Rep/Dem parties fault in 2015 and now its equally their fault this time too!

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Yes, it was definitely *insert party here*'s fault the last time because they were the majority/minority (pick one) and the other party was doing what was right for America but now that *insert party here* is the majority/minority (pick one), it has become abundantly clear the other party doesn't care about America and is doing everything they can to ruin it and it's up to *insert party here* to stop them from ruining our great country!

Both sides need to grow the hell up.

Zyphlin said:

A few years back, a government shut down was threatened with Democrats accusing Republicans of being the ones responsible if it happened because they refused to pass a "CLEAN" budget bill that did not include a requirement to defund an executive action President Obama had instituted regarding Immigration.

Now, a government shut down is being threatened with Republicans/Trump accusing Democrats of being the ones responsible if it happens because they refuse to pass a "CLEAN" budget bill that does not include immigration regulation protecting former DACA covered individuals.

In 2015, Republicans decried the notion that a "Clean" bill had to be passed and suggested Democrats scoffing at a passed budget bill would be responsible for shutting the government down, not Republicans.

In 2017, Democrats are decrying the notion that a "Clean" bill has to be passed and suggest Republicans are the ones truly at fault for refusing to compromise in an effort to get it done.

So what say you? Is it incumbent on congress to pass "clean" budget bills? If they refuse to pass a "clean" bill, is it the responsibility of the party in power for the government shutting down? Or does the majority party not getting on board with the "compromise" and insisting on a "Clean" bill bare the responsibility?

Or was it totally the Rep/Dem parties fault in 2015 and now its equally their fault this time too!

Click to expand...

We're so ****ed up I don't think it matters much anymore.


But for the record, I'd prefer that all bills were "clean"... that is, they addressed one topic, proposed one action, and had no "riders" attached that did not address the topic and action. I also think no bill should pass unless it is read aloud before Congress... if it is too long to read, well then it shouldn't pass anyway, or should be broken into several smaller bills.

I know we couldn't do that with a combined annual budget bill, but I can dream...

Government funding and operations shouldn't be held hostage to get a controversial political measure to pass or fail.

Bumping this for more people to vote since we're now coming up on the next key time for this after the can was kicked down the road.

Somehow I imagine we still won't have many people wanting to go on record regarding this though.

Zyphlin said:

A few years back, a government shut down was threatened with Democrats accusing Republicans of being the ones responsible if it happened because they refused to pass a "CLEAN" budget bill that did not include a requirement to defund an executive action President Obama had instituted regarding Immigration.

Now, a government shut down is being threatened with Republicans/Trump accusing Democrats of being the ones responsible if it happens because they refuse to pass a "CLEAN" budget bill that does not include immigration regulation protecting former DACA covered individuals.

In 2015, Republicans decried the notion that a "Clean" bill had to be passed and suggested Democrats scoffing at a passed budget bill would be responsible for shutting the government down, not Republicans.

In 2017, Democrats are decrying the notion that a "Clean" bill has to be passed and suggest Republicans are the ones truly at fault for refusing to compromise in an effort to get it done.

So what say you? Is it incumbent on congress to pass "clean" budget bills? If they refuse to pass a "clean" bill, is it the responsibility of the party in power for the government shutting down? Or does the majority party not getting on board with the "compromise" and insisting on a "Clean" bill bare the responsibility?

Or was it totally the Rep/Dem parties fault in 2015 and now its equally their fault this time too!

Click to expand...

In 2013 the cause of the shutdown was over an attempt to defund the PPACA, and the near-shut down in 2015 was over an attempt to defund Planned Parenthood. Republicans were given the onus of the blame in both of those cases because it was widely regarded that these were unreasonable "poison pills." This time around, the "poison pill" will be insistence on the part of Democrats to continue DACA. Will the public see this as a reasonable and humanitarian "poison pill?" I believe that it will be, and if that there is a shutdown Republicans will receive the blame, not only for holding to an unreasonable demand (if they should insist on rejecting the continuation of DACA), but also for the simple facts that they are in clear majority control of the Federal Government and that Republicans' approval ratings are so low. Republicans have been spending the entirety of 2017 painting themselves as a party of capricious heartlessness, and any serious opposition to DACA will only prolong that perception.

Goshin said:

We're so ****ed up I don't think it matters much anymore.


But for the record, I'd prefer that all bills were "clean"... that is, they addressed one topic, proposed one action, and had no "riders" attached that did not address the topic and action. I also think no bill should pass unless it is read aloud before Congress... if it is too long to read, well then it shouldn't pass anyway, or should be broken into several smaller bills.

I know we couldn't do that with a combined annual budget bill, but I can dream...

Click to expand...

There's a logistical problem. Think about it pragmatically.

So congress passes a bill limiting itself. It must pass only bills without riders. That are clean. So what's the new debate? What is clean? And that won't have court recourse. There won't be any enforcement of the cleanliness provision. The fight will simply shift. And I am not certain but seriously doubt that congress could designate the legislative branch as a determinant of what they can pass; in other words, that they could grant court review to questions of whether or not a bill is "clean".

What's the legal set-up? Bob Democrat thinks some Republican dirtied the bill with an extension so he.........he what, sues? Where do you get standing?




As for "if they cannot read", I do have to say that you may be underestimating the complexity of laws affecting the most powerful country on earth, with 320,000,000 people. Congresspersons by definition cannot be experts in everything. Nobody could. That's why there's X,Y,Z staff, A,B,C agencies. I simply cannot fathom why anyone would seriously believe that legislation affecting 320 million people, given the vast complex sprawl of modern life, can succeed so long as people don't get bored while reading it.




I've been doing political debate sites for about 15 years, and the main thing I've learned - this isn't simply aimed at you - the main thing I've learned is that the vast majority of people don't have the slightest clue about how things work, don't care to expend the slightest effort to think about things work, and somehow have decided that government is inefficient/bad/whatever unless it makes its decisions in the same way that the individual tries to decide whether he/she can afford a new smartphone.

And here's what I suspect. Contrary to all the allegations from said persons, what really allows government corruption is that belief. That refusal to dig deep, to consider, to reflect. It's easy to say things like "oh, I want clean bills. Those are good" or "congress should pass all these laws, we shouldn't leave regulations to agencies", yadda yadda. Politicians are the mouthpieces. It's the experts - good or bad motivations behind them - that craft policy. And it has to be that way because none of us can be an expert in everytihng.




I'd say that we have here the inevitable clash between the necessity an conscious species has for specialization, the fear of loss of control when specialization vastly exceeds the layman's ability to understand an issue, coupled with the ability of experienced/educated persons in the know to manipulate the system to corruptly benefit themselves. We correctly suspect that there are shenanigans, but the very nature of human technological advancement is such that each of us can only be an "expert" in one, MAYBE a few things. Yet we each want to be an authority on it all.

This thread demonstrates that as much as anything.