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Do you support or oppose the new Tax Plan?

Do you support the new Tax Plan?

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 22.6%

  • No

    Votes: 65 77.4%
  • Total voters
    84
  • Poll closed .
Skeptic Bob said:
The source of my dichotomy of opinion on this bill is the fact that over the past few years I have risen into that top 1% through a lot of hard work and some luck. And the less of my money that the government takes the sooner I will be able to retire and spend more time with my family. I have a dollar amount that will allow me to do that and this tax bill will allow me to reach that amount sooner.

But ethically I am against the bill because I want this country to be the best it can be because it is where my children will likely live out their lives.
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Don't have a family yet (being an early 30s poly-bachelor is too much fun!), but I'm in a pretty similar boat.

In my case, I don't have any internal conflict or second thoughts about it though; sure, this tax bill will get me where I want to be faster, but I personally enjoy what I do, my tax burden isn't materially impacting my day to day quality of life, and third and most importantly, this tax bill is absolutely not in the best interests of this country or the majority of its populace; the absurd growth estimates advanced by its defenders are exactly that, and it is absolutely guaranteed to explode the deficit and debt for the sake of the people who need their dollars repatriated least of all, nevermind the massive increases to already horrid, historic, and even potentially destabilizing economic inequality it will mean. Remember Bush's cuts? I certainly do; same story, only this time it's worse.

This about summarizes my thoughts: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ss-dont-cut-our-taxes/?utm_term=.d57e3382332e
 
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celticwar17 said:
Like I said before that is simply because there is more poor people there poor states do not have the benefit of rich people providing their states taxes, THAT is what balances it... rich people shouldn't get a tax break simply because more rich people are gathered in a certain state

Using this same logic, a Country Club neighborhood should get a tax deduction on all their homeowners association Property tax and upkeep...the neighborhood golf course gets a tax break over the poor neighborhood a few blocks down who has to pay taxes in full for their neighborhood property, simply because the poorer neighborhood has more people with financial aid. There is no way this can possibly make sense to you... If you are going to have federal policies benefit the poor, you are actually counteracting those benefits when you instead make it benefit the rich.... and in turn states who can tax the population extremely high with no consequences, so it no only benefits the rich people it also benefits the states revenue itself!!! So not only does the Country Club get a tax break, but also the individual rich people who live in that neighborhood.
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You keep mentioning rich people...I'm not talking about rich people. I'm referring to those who make $75,000 per year or less. That's most people, regardless of what state they come from...
 
Media_Truth said:
The sad reality is that it will be too late for any of us to decide. It will be done, despite the fact that 77% of Americans oppose it.
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The hard truth is that money talks. It doesn't matter what the public thinks. It matters what the corporate lobbyists and wealthy donors think. And now these corporations and donors will have even more money to talk. And the voices of the entire rest of society (we can call them the serf class now) will be silenced. As Moderate Right says in the next post, "Liberalism is dead. Get used to it. "
 
Moderate Right said:
Liberalism is dead. Get used to it.
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When you say "liberalism", you mean things like science and education, social security and Medicare etc...

It's not dead, it's been hijacked by 24% of the country's population, the far right conservative base. Don't get used to it...
 
Russell797 said:
When you say "liberalism", you mean things like science and education, social security and Medicare etc...

It's not dead, it's been hijacked by 24% of the country's population, the far right conservative base. Don't get used to it...
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And what's funny is that of that 24%, 95% of them are going to be hurt the most by all this. But that 5% of 24% are just exploiting all the misinformation, ignorance, and prejudices of that rest of the group to ride them like a donkey.
 
ataraxia said:
The hard truth is that money talks. It doesn't matter what the public thinks. It matters what the corporate lobbyists and wealthy donors think. And now these corporations and donors will have even more money to talk. And the voices of the entire rest of society (we can call them the serf class now) will be silenced. As Moderate Right says in the next post, "Liberalism is dead. Get used to it. "
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The 24% can't maintain the strangle hold on the population unless we allow them to...People need to improve their BS meters, and we will be alright.
 
Russell797 said:
When you say "liberalism", you mean things like science and education, social security and Medicare etc...

It's not dead, it's been hijacked by 24% of the country's population, the far right conservative base. Don't get used to it...
Click to expand...

The GOP in congress, the McConnells and Paul Ryans, have held their nose and put up with a lot of stinky stuff, including Donald Trump, and now even Roy Moore if they have to, to get these tax cuts for their handlers. They have really gone to the matt for their employers, the Koch brothers.
 
Russell797 said:
The 24% can't maintain the strangle hold on the population unless we allow them to...People need to improve their BS meters, and we will be alright.
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Don't hold your breath. There is too much ignorance and lack of education in the American public, being deluged with a fire hydrant of misinformation and propaganda. It's a tall order. I wouldn't be so confident.
 
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celticwar17 said:
I like the state tax deduction elimination.... That wins it for me. It's a completely unfair deduction.
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ALL deductions are unfair. We raise taxes to fund the legitimate functions government, not to reward or punish behavior with the tax code. This includes deductions for charity to traditional churches, museums, art galleries and even Satan worshipers. Give them all the money or property you like, it's not income to them nor a deduction for you.

If they sell such gifted property, then of course they have realized a capital gain (basis of Zero) and as commerce it becomes a taxable event.
 
ataraxia said:
And what's funny is that of that 24%, 95% of them are going to be hurt the most by all this. But that 5% of 24% are just exploiting all the misinformation, ignorance, and prejudices of that rest of the group to ride them like a donkey.
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Or worse if you know what I mean! I can't say it without violating the public decency rules. Some of us still have a sense of that, despite Trump and anti-PC/common decency crowd.
 
Surrealistik said:
Don't have a family yet (being an early 30s poly-bachelor is too much fun!), but I'm in a pretty similar boat.

In my case, I don't have any internal conflict or second thoughts about it though; sure, this tax bill will get me where I want to be faster, but I personally enjoy what I do, my tax burden isn't materially impacting my day to day quality of life, and third and most importantly, this tax bill is absolutely not in the best interests of this country or the majority of its populace; the absurd growth estimates advanced by its defenders are exactly that, and it is absolutely guaranteed to explode the deficit and debt for the sake of the people who need their dollars repatriated least of all, nevermind the massive increases to already horrid, historic, and even potentially destabilizing economic inequality it will mean. Remember Bush's cuts? I certainly do; same story, only this time it's worse.

This about summarizes my thoughts: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ss-dont-cut-our-taxes/?utm_term=.d57e3382332e
Click to expand...

This tax cut is being sold to the ignorant masses under the banner of "trickle down economics". This was one of the most toxic ideas to come out of the Reagan administration. Any serious economist in the country, or the world, knows it doesn't work. But what do they know. They are just "liberal elites" propagating fake news. It sells well to the ignorant masses. And that's all the Koch brothers need to ride them like donkeys (or whatever whatever that other thing was you had in mind...).
 
ataraxia said:
Don't hold your breath. There is too much ignorance and lack of education in the American public, being deluged with a fire hydrant of misinformation and propaganda. It's a tall order. I wouldn't be so confident.
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The thing is, we have the numbers but they just can't be bothered to get off their butts and vote...The other side is rabid in their effort to win control. When enough people feel the hurt, their instinct will kick in. Republicans only win when the turn out is low.
 
SirGareth said:
ALL deductions are unfair. We raise taxes to fund the legitimate functions government, not to reward or punish behavior with the tax code. This includes deductions for charity to traditional churches, museums, art galleries and even Satan worshipers. Give them all the money or property you like, it's not income to them nor a deduction for you.

If they sell such gifted property, then of course they have realized a capital gain (basis of Zero) and as commerce it becomes a taxable event.
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Then take away all deductions... including this one lol...I'm fine with that

Just, if you are going to have tax deductions... the state tax deduction is especially unfair.
 
celticwar17 said:
Then take away all deductions... including this one lol...I'm fine with that

Just, if you are going to have tax deductions... the state tax deduction is especially unfair.
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But you will still take my federally confiscated money to bail out Louisiana, Mississippi, Kansas and the other bastions of conservative success.
 
Russell797 said:
When you say "liberalism", you mean things like science and education, social security and Medicare etc...

It's not dead, it's been hijacked by 24% of the country's population, the far right conservative base. Don't get used to it...
Click to expand...

Totally amazing how you think 24% run the country. You ignore the fact that Democrats have lost over one thousand seats during the last 7 years and that has nothing to do with 24%. And no, liberalism does not mean science, education, social security, medicare etc.

Science: The huge majority of Republicans believe in science and are not creationists. They also believe that global warming is real but there is a dispute about how much man contributes to it or how much man can do to actually stop it. Man just being here all by itself contributes to global warming. The population expands exponentially and the environment pays a price for it. A solution to that is to cut back on the population. As far as working on global warming, if liberals got absolutely everything they wanted, global warming would still be getting worse. It is mother nature, and even though we might be able to put a dent in mother nature you can't stop mother nature.

Education: I'm kind of at a loss as to what you mean by that. I've never known a Republican anywhere who was against education.

Social Security and Medicare: Oh, yeah, I forgot. Republicans want to take away social security and medicare and leave the elderly destitute and out on the street. But, to be serious, I really don't know any Republicans who are against social security and medicare. However, people are living longer all the time and even Democrats acknowledge that they are both on a course for insolvency. Why are Democrats afraid to even talk about it, let alone do anything? Republicans want to address the issue and Democrats blast them for it. Republicans have consistently said that whatever changes they make would not effect current retirees or anyone near retirement.

In short, if Democrats just want to play political games and say Republicans are fighting a war against the poor, a war on women, a war on minorities, a war on legal immigrants, a war on seniors, a war on the environment, and a war on everyone and everything else - we can't seriously address the country's problems. It is nothing but blatant partisan propaganda and rhetoric designed solely for political gain. And, voters are wising up and not believing the rhetoric any more.
 
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Moderate Right said:
Science: The huge majority of Republicans believe in science and are not creationists. They also believe that global warming is real but there is a dispute about how much man contributes to it or how much man can do to actually stop it. Man just being here all by itself contributes to global warming.
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There is no dispute how much man contributes. And there is no dispute we can do something about it if we want to. The only disputes are on Fox News.

And if you think "the huge majority of Republicans" believe global warming is real: I will remind you they just voted for a president who told them it's just a Chinese hoax.

And they just voted congressmen into office to enact a tax bill based on "trickle down economics", something no serious economist on the planet thinks works.
 
ataraxia said:
There is no dispute how much man contributes. And there is no dispute we can do something about it if we want to. The only disputes are on Fox News.

And if you think "the huge majority of Republicans" believe global warming is real: I will remind you they just voted for a president who told them it's just a Chinese hoax.

And they just voted congressmen into office to enact a tax bill based on "trickle down economics", something no serious economist on the planet thinks works.
Click to expand...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...humans-play-part-in-global-warming-haley-says
 
Russell797 said:
But you will still take my federally confiscated money to bail out Louisiana, Mississippi, Kansas and the other bastions of conservative success.
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I'm not doing anything... And they aren't bailing out those states.. they are bailing out poor people who just so happen to live in those states. If they were state targeted, I would agree with you. Rich people in certain states shouldn't get a tax bailout just because less poor people live in their state, they should pay the same amount other rich people pay in any state.

If you don't like welfare programs, go after those... instead of trying to cheat the system with a state tax deduction.

And if you don't like high state taxes, talk to your state about it.
 
ataraxia said:
This tax cut is being sold to the ignorant masses under the banner of "trickle down economics". This was one of the most toxic ideas to come out of the Reagan administration. Any serious economist in the country, or the world, knows it doesn't work. But what do they know. They are just "liberal elites" propagating fake news. It sells well to the ignorant masses. And that's all the Koch brothers need to ride them like donkeys (or whatever whatever that other thing was you had in mind...).
Click to expand...

From the look of polling, it seems like it's not being sold well at all.

Trump is perhaps one of the greatest things to ever happen to the Democrats with respect to the long game; once the initial, reactionary dread at his win was replaced with rational thought, I figured he and the Republicans at large might well end up overplaying their hand, and look where we are: this disaster of a tax plan, the repeal of NN, and all kinds of inept, greatly unpopular leadership and policy points. The appeal of the GOP has been thoroughly trashed, corporate Dems are discredited and progressive Dems are ascendant despite the best efforts of the former to maintain their undeserved control, and it's all largely thanks to Trump. Honestly, without him, we likely would have had another term of de facto Obama with Hillary and the GOP collectively boiling the frog that is the American people with their usual careful gradualism as progressives languish under Clinton's executive per its bolstering of Third Way Dems and their legitimacy.

As they say, it's always darkest before the dawn.
 
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Surrealistik said:
From the look of polling, it seems like it's not being sold well at all.

Trump is perhaps one of the greatest things to ever happen to the Democrats with respect to the long game; once the initial, reactionary dread at his win was replaced with rational thought, I figured he and the Republicans at large might well end up overplaying their hand, and look where we are: this disaster of a tax plan, the repeal of NN, and all kinds of inept, greatly unpopular leadership and policy points. The appeal of the GOP has been thoroughly trashed, corporate Dems are discredited and progressive Dems are ascendant despite the best efforts of the former to maintain their undeserved control, and it's all largely thanks to Trump. Honestly, without him, we likely would have had another term of de facto Obama with Hillary and the GOP collectively boiling the frog that is the American people with their usual careful gradualism as progressives languish under Clinton's executive per its bolstering of Third Way Dems and their legitimacy.

As they say, it's always darkest before the dawn.
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Funny how you guys say all this while the economy has been booming ever since Trump took office.
 
Moderate Right said:
Funny how you guys say all this while the economy has been booming ever since Trump took office.
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Right, because that totally has everything to do with Trump; a guy who has barely managed to pass policy and has been in office for less than a year.
 
Surrealistik said:
Right, because that totally has everything to do with Trump; a guy who has barely managed to pass policy and has been in office for less than a year.
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Yep. Face the reality, Obama was mired in 1% economic growth for eight years and now after Trump takes office and we're over 3% the left wants to try claiming that it is really Obama's policies that are responsible. By the way, I've got some oceanfront property in Iowa I can let you have for a great price.
 
Moderate Right said:
Yep. Face the reality, Obama was mired in 1% economic growth for eight years and now after Trump takes office and we're over 3% the left wants to try claiming that it is really Obama's policies that are responsible. By the way, I've got some oceanfront property in Iowa I can let you have for a great price.
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Check your stats: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual

US Real GDP Growth Rate

https://www.statista.com/statistics/188165/annual-gdp-growth-of-the-united-states-since-1990/

https://www.thebalance.com/us-gdp-by-year-3305543

GDP growth has been consistent at roughly 2+% average since the end of the Great Recession.

Not a fan of Obama, nor do I necessarily credit him with this growth beyond overseeing measures to mitigate the impacts of the 2007 crisis, but the facts are pretty indisputable in terms of real annual GDP growth.

That said, you accusing me of koolaide drinking is about as hilarious as it is ironic since you appear to legitimately believe someone who hasn't even passed any kind of substantive policy has anything to do with this, nevermind this nonsense '1% growth for eight years' dribble (the average is 1.525% even including the recession years over the past 8, and 2.14% if they're excluded).
 
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