View Poll Results: Is there such a thing as a transracial person?

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Thread: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

  1. #181
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    I know a few that have gotten destroyed questioning basic evolutionary biology or climate change science. At some point, it becomes career suicide to question such well-established science. That's not because of closed mindedness. It's just because academic centers have very little tolerance for nonsense. You might as well question the heliocentric model of the solar system or pursue alchemy for your research, and then wonder why your career just ended so fast.
    I disagree with your perspective.... the motivation is more to not be politically incorrect.... "hate" facts, and "hate" science. I work in academics and university... I know exactly how political science departments can be....

    Even Physics departments... there are people who very stubborn to have new ideas to be put forth.... and before we get any progress we'll have to wait for a lot of the old timers to die. For example, String theory should have died a LONG time ago, though there are many still clinging to it.
    Last edited by celticwar17; Yesterday at 12:21 PM.

  2. #182
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I actually spend a few hours learning how to interpret it, because it isn't easy. It is essentially showing patterns and probabilities in gene difference's among genetic populations.
    comes from this study....
    OK. But no one is questioning that there are clusterings of certain loci in people from certain geographic ancestries. The question is whether these are enough to call them "races".

    Think of it this way: let's say there are 3 individuals: A, B, and C. You sequence their entire genome, and find that person A and B have more sequence homology than person C. But it turns out that in the gene loci for skin pigmentation and eye color, persons A and C have white skin and blue eyes, whereas person B has dark skin and brown eyes.

    Does that mean then that person A and C are the same "race", where as person "B" is an entirely different race, even though persons A and B are more similar in terms of the rest of their gene sequences than person C? That seems like a rather strange conclusion to come to. That is, however, literally how it is in human populations. Here is one example where they actually looked at that:

    "In one example that demonstrated genetic differences were not fixed along racial lines, the full genomes of James Watson and Craig Venter, two famous American scientists of European ancestry, were compared to that of a Korean scientist, Seong-Jin Kim. It turned out that Watson (who, ironically, became ostracized in the scientific community after making racist remarks) and Venter shared fewer variations in their genetic sequences than they each shared with Kim."
    Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue
    So what does it mean when we say that race is a social construct? Does it mean that we can't tell that Kim is Korean and Warson and Venter are not? No, of course not. People from the Korean peninsula have certain gene characteristics, such as more slanted eyes, which are more prevalent there geographically than in Europe. So we can use that to say that Kim has Korean ancestry. But so what? That doesn't mean he is a different race or breed or subspecies. The only way you can say he is a different race is to DEFINE the particular gene locus for slanted eyes or skin pigmentation as making someone of a different race. But that's something YOU have decided. It is a social construct.

    You could similarly have two white families, they are neighbors, one with the gene for male pattern baldness more prevalent than the other. Are they different "races"? No. They are just from two different families. It is a particular characteristic of one of the families, and you can even try to sequence that gene to tell with a high degree of certainty whether a given unknown person is from one family vs. the other. But that doesn't make them different "races". That gene for male pattern baldness may even cluster with other genes between these two families, like eye color or height. Still doesn't make them different races or breeds.

    This is no different than what we are calling "races"- it's just that we have contingently chosen, as a society, to pick out a few geographically specific loci, like hair or skin color or shape of eyelids, to define "race". There's nothing to that. These are just variations in a few small loci. Because they still have more similarities between different members than these individual loci. Biologically, it does not qualify to make them races or breeds, unless we choose as a society to define them as such.

    So when you wonder if Filipinos or Cambodians are a different race than the Japanese, the question has no real scientific answer. It can be if you want, or not. You define it. It's up to you. There is nothing in science which will help you do that. It just comes down to how specific do you want to be in defining your geographic ancestry. Science can even tell you if your ancestors are from Scotland vs. Ireland, or even the east side of London vs. the west. If you choose to make that some kind of racial distinction, then that's what it is. These are just differences on a spectrum, and we look at them and choose where to draw the line. Or not.

    What makes this particularly difficult for the layperson is when you start mixing in culture with this. It makes sense that people from a certain country or location are going to have certain cultural accomplishments, or certain mindsets or ways of thinking our outlooks, that are going to be very different than others from other places. But is this because of their genes, or just the contingencies of culture and history? It seems the answer is the latter. We are social animals, all the way up, and down. Our society defines us. The study of feral children has shown this pretty clearly.

    https://catalog.flatworldknowledge.c...arkan-ch04_s01
    Last edited by ataraxia; Yesterday at 04:14 PM.

  3. #183
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I disagree with your perspective.... the motivation is more to not be politically incorrect.... "hate" facts, and "hate" science. I work in academics and university... I know exactly how political science departments can be....

    Even Physics departments... there are people who very stubborn to have new ideas to be put forth.... and before we get any progress we'll have to wait for a lot of the old timers to die. For example, String theory should have died a LONG time ago, though there are many still clinging to it.
    OK. But I would be careful to conclude from this that anything that is offensive, not prevalent, or politically incorrect therefore must be right.

  4. #184
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I disagree with your perspective.... the motivation is more to not be politically incorrect.... "hate" facts, and "hate" science. I work in academics and university... I know exactly how political science departments can be....
    OK. But this is not JUST coming from political science or other social science departments. It's coming from molecular biology and genetics departments.

  5. #185
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    OK. But this is not JUST coming from political science or other social science departments. It's coming from molecular biology and genetics departments.
    Which is why I mentioned my experience in the physics department.

  6. #186
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    OK. But no one is questioning that there are clusterings of certain loci in people from certain geographic ancestries. The question is whether these are enough to call them "races".
    Which is EXACTLY why I asked for a definition.... and I very well acknowledge that is up for debate... but it seems to depend on what you define as "races" .... what does it mean to you, if it was "enough" to call them "races"

  7. #187
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    Which is why I mentioned my experience in the physics department.
    Sure. But in the physics department, do the faculty accept Maxwell's laws only because it is politically correct? Not all facts have to be politically incorrect or offensive.
    Last edited by ataraxia; Yesterday at 05:31 PM.

  8. #188
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    Which is EXACTLY why I asked for a definition.... and I very well acknowledge that is up for debate... but it seems to depend on what you define as "races" .... what does it mean to you, if it was "enough" to call them "races"
    The term is entirely socially defined, so it means different things to different people and different societies. It's like asking what "wealthy" means. I define "race" as whatever the socially prevalent and most current definition of it is in my society, because that is the social reality we have to deal with. If you ask 10 different people, of course, you will get 10 different answers. But there is a general consensus of what "race" means in 21st century America. That can, of course, change, as cultures and opinions change. And that is the social reality that we have to acknowledge and work with. That's all there is to it. There's no point getting too detailed on it beyond that, like whether Filipinos are a different race than the Japanese, because fortunately that is not a big question here in the US society right now.

    In India, they choose to have a different social construction, based on social classes. You are born into them. Certain people are considered "untouchables" based on their ancestry. There is no science to it. But that's not to deny that it is very real, especially to those at the bottom class which face severe restrictions and are in a very dangerous position of vulnerability and abuse. So whoever wants to deal with it has to look at how that society is defining it so they can deal with it. The government of India has tried to do a lot to get this concept out of people's heads, because it is very unjust, abusive, and dysfunctional. But it is a social construct that has been a part of Indian culture and society for millennia now. You can't legislate it by force out of the culture very easily. It is part of how people in that society see the world. It's very real, to them.

    "Race" here in the US is an analogous concept.
    Last edited by ataraxia; Yesterday at 05:33 PM.

  9. #189
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Is a Northern Irishman a displaced Puerto Rican?
    Its easier to run for office than to run the office.
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    Re: Is there such a thing as a trans-race person?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Sure. But in the physics department, do the faculty accept Maxwell's laws only because it is politically correct? Not all facts have to be politically incorrect or offensive.
    At one point the established Newtonian Laws were factual, and became "politically correct", until Maxelll's laws... which was quite unpopular at the time, and only gained a lot of traction until Einstein.

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