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Punishment for allegations of impropriety

Read post for poll question and options.

  • Why risk things getting worse? Get the scumbucket out!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • As long as the accuser seems credible the scumbucket should be run out of office.

    Votes: 1 7.7%

  • Justice is important but Democracy is more important so get the scumbucket out.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Sometimes individuals will make false or misleading allegations for political reasons but...

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • If enough people believe your a scumbucket then you're a scumbucket so get the scumbucket out.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Allegations are not the same as proof but all is fair in politics so get the scumbucket out.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I'm sick and tired of all these absurd allegations...

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Evidence? Laws? Hello? Anyone sane in here?

    Votes: 12 92.3%
  • Total voters
    13
Verax said:
That's in the court of law, I'm talking about the court of public opinion. If you're probably guilty of a serious crime like this you should not be elected to public office.
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Sorry. Both courts operate the same with me...
 
Bodhisattva said:
Sorry. Both courts operate the same with me...
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So you think Weinstein, Louis C.K., Toback, Bill Cosby, Trump, Spacey, Moore, are all innocent? They haven't been convicted of a crime... in your court.
 
Verax said:
So you think Weinstein, Louis C.K., Toback, Bill Cosby, Trump, Spacey, Moore, are all innocent? They haven't been convicted of a crime... in your court.
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Are you saying they have been convicted of a crime or the public thinks they are guilty without hearing all the facts? Pretty sure Cosby is guilty but thinking a person is and depriving them of a job is disconnected.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Are you saying they have been convicted of a crime or the public thinks they are guilty without hearing all the facts? Pretty sure Cosby is guilty but thinking a person is and depriving them of a job is disconnected.
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I'm saying they haven't been convicted of a crime but it is quite obvious they are guilty. What you were suggesting was that the public court has no validity whatsoever but you even say yourself that you believe Cosby is guilty... surely Weinstein as well, right?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Letting the voters decide is the ideal situation in a democracy, this is not rocket science.

Of course once the voters decide that has to be the end of it.

If it is not then someone else is actually in charge.

Maybe Carlin was right.
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Warning: Graphic language

 
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Verax said:
I'm saying they haven't been convicted of a crime but it is quite obvious they are guilty. What you were suggesting was that the public court has no validity whatsoever but you even say yourself that you believe Cosby is guilty... surely Weinstein as well, right?
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The public can think what yhey want. They can even vote a person out... or whatever the argument was. I just think we need to be careful as innocent people are often accused. I just read about Weinstein. The movie guy. Seems guilty but we have no idea if it is true. I will say that the more that come forward the more true it probably is though...
 
Bodhisattva said:
The public can think what yhey want. They can even vote a person out... or whatever the argument was. I just think we need to be careful as innocent people are often accused. I just read about Weinstein. The movie guy. Seems guilty but we have no idea if it is true. I will say that the more that come forward the more true it probably is though...
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Fair enough.
 
Verax said:
For those that think this allegations phenomena is wrong or "out of control". Could I get a list of people who were seriously accused of sexual misconduct in which it was later determined the allegations were false or that nothing probably happened? Personally I can count on one hand the number of times this happened and it generally didn't take long for the allegations to fall apart. On the flip side the list of famous or powerful people who were later found to be monsters is very, very long.
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Make sure you reserve a finger for Romney...even if he is now doing the same thing that was done to him.
 
Lutherf said:
Should those candidates and elected officials accused of sexual, racial or ethical impropriety be struck from ballots or removed from office? Basically, is it more important to get an accused deviant out of office even if there is no proof of the accusers claims or is it more important to abide by the presumption of innocence?

1. Why risk things getting worse? Get the scumbucket out!
2. As long as the accuser seems credible the scumbucket should be run out of office.
3. Justice is important but Democracy is more important so get the scumbucket out.
4. Sometimes individuals will make false or misleading allegations for political reasons but it's too risky to give public figures the benefit of the doubt so get the scumbucket out.
5. If enough people believe your a scumbucket then you're a scumbucket so get the scumbucket out.
6. Allegations are not the same as proof but all is fair in politics so get the scumbucket out.
7. I'm sick and tired of all these absurd allegations from 30 or 40 years ago with no proof. I've pretty much stopped listening to this kind of thing.
8. Evidence? Laws? Hello? Anyone sane in here?

Moderator's Warning:
Added poll. Poll options 4 and 7 were too long so had to shorten them. Read Post for full options. ~ Kal'Stang
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" struck from ballots or removed from office? "

just from allegations? no of course not
If guilty? yes of course

the people will decided in the court of public opinion and later if theres evidence and or conviction more can happen then

as far as #7, I listen to them ALL ot them because thats the RIGHT and JUST thing to do, no allegations should be ignored because thats unfair to victims and only hurts real victims and continues the problem. To not listen or ignore is to be part of the problem.

BUT

that doesn't mean all the allegations just magically have validity... People are innocent until proven guilty :shrug:
 
Mycroft said:
Make sure you reserve a finger for Romney...even if he is now doing the same thing that was done to him.
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I absolutely agree with Romney currently. What was done to him I don't remember? The sexism thing?
 
Verax said:
For those that think this allegations phenomena is wrong or "out of control". Could I get a list of people who were seriously accused of sexual misconduct in which it was later determined the allegations were false or that nothing probably happened? Personally I can count on one hand the number of times this happened and it generally didn't take long for the allegations to fall apart. On the flip side the list of famous or powerful people who were later found to be monsters is very, very long.
Click to expand...

Clarence Thomas
Herman Cain
Lacrosse team at Duke
UVA rape story reported in Rolling Stone


Many others but these are the first to come to mind.

I don't see anybody saying that sexual assault or sexual harassment doesn't occur with some regularity but some of these complaints are just too damned politically convenient to be given much credibility. If the matter wasn't a big enough deal to speak up about during the guys last 40 years of public service then why is it a big deal now?

Keep this in mind too, whether a comment is inappropriate or not is pretty damned subjective and many of us have been in conversations that started out fun but ended up over the top. Just because something like that happened doesn't mean that it's harassment. Furthermore, one case of "inappropriate" touching doesn't necessarily constitute "sexual assault". If someone makes a sexual advance on you and you, through words or actions, cause the advance to stop you wern't assaulted. If it becomes a pattern of behavior then maybe you have a case. If the initial touch was egregious (groping intimate anatomy) then maybe you have a case. If, however, someone comes on to you and puts their hand on your knee that isn't assault. If you agreed to go on a date with someone and agreed to go back to their place and agreed to get half naked but changed your mind when they touched you that isn't assault unless they continued the behavior you asked them to stop.
 
Lutherf said:
Clarence Thomas
Herman Cain
Lacrosse team at Duke
UVA rape story reported in Rolling Stone


Many others but these are the first to come to mind.

I don't see anybody saying that sexual assault or sexual harassment doesn't occur with some regularity but some of these complaints are just too damned politically convenient to be given much credibility. If the matter wasn't a big enough deal to speak up about during the guys last 40 years of public service then why is it a big deal now?

Keep this in mind too, whether a comment is inappropriate or not is pretty damned subjective and many of us have been in conversations that started out fun but ended up over the top. Just because something like that happened doesn't mean that it's harassment. Furthermore, one case of "inappropriate" touching doesn't necessarily constitute "sexual assault". If someone makes a sexual advance on you and you, through words or actions, cause the advance to stop you wern't assaulted. If it becomes a pattern of behavior then maybe you have a case. If the initial touch was egregious (groping intimate anatomy) then maybe you have a case. If, however, someone comes on to you and puts their hand on your knee that isn't assault. If you agreed to go on a date with someone and agreed to go back to their place and agreed to get half naked but changed your mind when they touched you that isn't assault unless they continued the behavior you asked them to stop.
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The Clarence Thomas accusations were suspect and look what happened, he's a supreme court justice. It was a controversy but didn't wrongfully sink him.

Herman Cain, it is still unclear whether he did something wrong or not, I kind of think he did but I dunno. If innocent that's pretty unfortunate for him but that's not exactly a foul ball in how dirty politics can get and at the least he partially set himself up for this to happen.

The Lacrosse team and UVA allegtions were absolutely wrongful, and in the end the truth was known. That's kind of the point here. It's fairly rare for serious allegations to be debunked as false as opposed to how many serious allegations end up being true.

The NYT article on Roy Moore very clearly presents the case for why the allegations hadn't surfaced for 40 years, the whole story is very believable IMO. The fact that all these allegations are spilling out now is a testament to how afraid people are to speak up because they fear they will be attacked as liars. And in the case of Moore's accusers that is exactly what is happening.
 
shagg said:
It's not perfect, voters can be deceived, victims can be discredited, the legal system can be wrong. But since we don't live in a perfect world, this is probably the best possible answer.
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Thank you!
 
chuckiechan said:
Nice play on words, but you missed the point. You accuse and let media manipulation do the rest.
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I support Trump on various issues and events. I criticized Obama plenty, being a fiscal conservative and hawk. No one ever called me a racist for any of it. Are you sure this isn't a personal problem?
 
Bodhisattva said:
thinking a person is and depriving them of a job is disconnected.
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That's Alabama-stupid.

Potential employers fire people all the time based on suspected misdeeds, shareholders pull investments all the time due to allegations, move distributors pull movies all the time due to allegations, women break up with men all the time due to allegations.

This is like the status quo for how the world operates except in the matter of laws, in which case, we use the judicial system...,and we STILL use our judgement to disconnect!! (see OJ Simpson).

Can your claim be any more absurd?
 
The only legitimate ways to remove someone from office are the ballot box and whatever mechanism the applicable constitution calls for.


Candidates? Up to the party if they're running under one. The voters otherwise.
 
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Lutherf said:
Should those candidates and elected officials accused of sexual, racial or ethical impropriety be struck from ballots or removed from office? Basically, is it more important to get an accused deviant out of office even if there is no proof of the accusers claims or is it more important to abide by the presumption of innocence?

1. Why risk things getting worse? Get the scumbucket out!
2. As long as the accuser seems credible the scumbucket should be run out of office.
3. Justice is important but Democracy is more important so get the scumbucket out.
4. Sometimes individuals will make false or misleading allegations for political reasons but it's too risky to give public figures the benefit of the doubt so get the scumbucket out.
5. If enough people believe your a scumbucket then you're a scumbucket so get the scumbucket out.
6. Allegations are not the same as proof but all is fair in politics so get the scumbucket out.
7. I'm sick and tired of all these absurd allegations from 30 or 40 years ago with no proof. I've pretty much stopped listening to this kind of thing.
8. Evidence? Laws? Hello? Anyone sane in here?

Moderator's Warning:
Added poll. Poll options 4 and 7 were too long so had to shorten them. Read Post for full options. ~ Kal'Stang
Click to expand...

Last I recall, y'all were so eager to impeach Bill Clinton because of (among other things) three women accused him of sexual harassment/abuse. And the Right was SO eager to point out the Hollywood liberal men being accused of sexual harassment/abuse. But now that it's Roy Moore, it's "waitaminnit! What happened to evidence? Laws? Hello? Anyone sane in here????"
 
"Innocent until proven guilty" only applies to criminal courts of law. That's it. Already several Republicans are calling on Moore to step aside. Many others are almost doing so, though they are struggling to believe victims who have practically zero reason to lie.

As for the OP poll, it's pretty sad that it couldn't include decent options among eight of them. SAD.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Last I recall, y'all were so eager to impeach Bill Clinton because of (among other things) three women accused him of sexual harassment/abuse. And the Right was SO eager to point out the Hollywood liberal men being accused of sexual harassment/abuse. But now that it's Roy Moore, it's "waitaminnit! What happened to evidence? Laws? Hello? Anyone sane in here????"
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Blue dress.

Semen stain.

Evidence!
 
Lutherf said:
Blue dress.

Semen stain.

Evidence!
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It proved that he had sex with her, but if you'll recall, it was CONSENSUAL by her own admission. That's not sexual harassment - she was a willing partner by her own admission.

That's a far cry from sexual harassment and abuse. Try again.
 
Cephus said:
But nobody cares about that anymore, it's just the court of public opinion, operating on pure emotion.
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True... unfortunately.
 
Mach said:
That's Alabama-stupid.

Potential employers fire people all the time based on suspected misdeeds, shareholders pull investments all the time due to allegations, move distributors pull movies all the time due to allegations, women break up with men all the time due to allegations.

This is like the status quo for how the world operates except in the matter of laws, in which case, we use the judicial system...,and we STILL use our judgement to disconnect!! (see OJ Simpson).

Can your claim be any more absurd?
Click to expand...

Of course it can... but Im not gonna show you.
 
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