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Kneeling vs funeral

Is kneeling the same free speech as calling soldiers baby killers or abortion docters murderers?

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Rich123;
No it's about the "First Amendment."
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Players kneeling during the anthem is not a "First Amendment" Issue. They are at work and on company time. Courts have repeatedly ruled that you do not have a right to protest at work on company time. If they want to protest, they can go on strike. But then they would lose the money they make on each game. Obviously, they don't want to take the financial hit.

They are protesting law enforcement, supposedly. I can see why this subject is near and dear to them as arrests of NFL players averages about one per week. I'm sure they feel law enforcement is singling them out.

About kneeling and the flag. At a military funeral the flag would be presented to the spouse of deceased or his/her mother, and the soldier presenting the flag will normally kneel when he/she presents that flag. In this case kneeling is a sign of respect for the fallen. I suspect that is how Kapernick meant the kneel down to be legitimized. I doubt many of the players who have joined him even know about this custom. And in this case kneeling with your hand over your heart would be the appropriate way to do it.
 
Bodhisattva said:
So... to all those claiming flag/anthem protesting is "respectful freedom of speech"... whom among you state that the Westboro Church Is expressing "respectful freedom of speech" when tbey are protesting soldiers furing their funerals as baby killers?


The debate is NOT about loudness or placards or calmly kneeling.

The debate IS ABOUT freedom of speech versus what is culturally considered polite or respectful behaviour.
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Freedom of speech is usually freedom to say or do outrageous things which make people uncomfortable. You know, like saying Happy Holidays.
 
Rich123 said:
No it's about the "First Amendment." No straw man here. The point I was making is the right to Free Speech is for all. The Supreme court even has gone as far as calling "Money as a form of speech" as in Citizens United. We don't have to like what is being expressed and we have the right to express our displeasure. What is more relevant given your examples is whether one has the right to express their views without a permit or to invade a private affair. A funeral is a private affair and the participants of the funeral have a constitutional right to their privacy. A foot ball stadium is a public venue and as such one needs a permit to protest. More so than that is the rights of the fans. They didn't pay for a protest, they paid for a football game. But given the right venue all groups have the right to protest. And again I will say there is a huge difference between a bended knee and protesting at a funeral.
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No. It is not about the First Amendment ... it is about respectful versus disrespectful behaviour.
 
Rich123 said:
Perhaps his initial remarks as you say didn't state the police shootings. Instead he just said oppression of people of color, as you claim.
But oppression comes in many forms. I am sure a form of oppression could be lynching too. Violence is oppression. It's the tactic use by the oppressor.

Now if you say kneeling is disrespectful to the Nation's Anthem, well you can hold that belief. Kneeling very often is seen as a type of respect, a type of submission. I can't say that either view is accurate or factual, both are just beliefs.
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Colin began by remaining seated on the bench. He talked to a seal team friend of his who suggested taking a knee instead, as being less disrespectful to veterans. That was his call to change posture. Taking a knee is one. Kneeling is both. I think he should have remained seated.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Culturally accepted norms.

Stand when the bride walks
Quite during a prayer or moment of silence
Etc

Sure it is freedom of speech to talk during a moment of silencing but choosing that moment to start speaking about a protest is disrespectful.
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As far as I know, Kaepernick consulted with a military vet on how best to protest while being 'respectful' towards the flag. The vet told him to kneel.

Blackhawks fans cheer loudly during the national anthem. Some consider it a sign of disrespect. Obviously most Hawks fans disagree.

Personally, I think it is ridiculous some people get far more wound up about this than when there is an epidemic of players beating their girlfriends/wives.
 
Geoist said:
Personally, I think it is ridiculous some people get far more wound up about this than when there is an epidemic of players beating their girlfriends/wives.
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I agree but that is a separate issue...

As far as I know, Kaepernick consulted with a military vet on how best to protest while being 'respectful' towards the flag. The vet told him to kneel.
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The Vet does not speak for Americans... also, Kap's statements about not respecting the flag and wearing pig socks did not reflect respectful protest... so when he purposely disrespected America what are people supposed to expect? They call him disrespectful. What the hell are people denying that for... THEY are the onese creating the controversy at this point.

Blackhawks fans cheer loudly during the national anthem. Some consider it a sign of disrespect. Obviously most Hawks fans disagree.
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Depends on why they are cheering... if they are cheering in excitement over being American or to cheer the troops or whatever then I don't see anything wrong with it. If they were booing then there would be a reason to complain.
 
Bodhisattva said:
The Vet does not speak for Americans...
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You're right, the vet does not speak for all Americans... just as those who complain do not speak for everyone. However, the fact Kaepernick consulted with a vet on this issue demonstrates how he did not take the issue lightly and wanted to protest in a way that is less incendiary than just sitting or staying in the locker room.


also, Kap's statements about not respecting the flag and wearing pig socks did not reflect respectful protest... so when he purposely disrespected America what are people supposed to expect? They call him disrespectful. What the hell are people denying that for... THEY are the onese creating the controversy at this point.
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The pig socks were directed towards rogue cops. He said so, himself. I see nothing controversial about protesting against rogue cops. In fact, we all should. Somehow nationalists have twisted the issue to make it that protesting bad officers is somehow protesting all officers. What a silly argument. It would be like arguing that one is protesting against all teachers just because they said something about bad teachers preying on their students.



Depends on why they are cheering... if they are cheering in excitement over being American or to cheer the troops or whatever then I don't see anything wrong with it.
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Maybe you don't, but I have heard a lot of people, veterans and non-veterans, saying you should be quiet during the anthem and that yelling or cheering is disrespectful to the flag.

Oi, I don't get humans and their nationalistic stupid rituals. :doh
 
Bodhisattva said:
So... to all those claiming flag/anthem protesting is "respectful freedom of speech"... whom among you state that the Westboro Church Is expressing "respectful freedom of speech" when tbey are protesting soldiers furing their funerals as baby killers?


The debate is NOT about loudness or placards or calmly kneeling.

The debate IS ABOUT freedom of speech versus what is culturally considered polite or respectful behaviour.
Click to expand...
I'm late to this thread, but I will not wallow or predicate.

Instead, I will directly and unequivocal state that all three examples are equally protected free speech, and deserved of those protections. As distasteful as I find these examples, I stand behind my fellow Americans' right to speak their mind and freely express themselves.

Freedom and democracy are not easy. If you have a thin skin, you need apply elsewhere.
 
Bodhisattva said:
So... to all those claiming flag/anthem protesting is "respectful freedom of speech"... whom among you state that the Westboro Church Is expressing "respectful freedom of speech" when tbey are protesting soldiers furing their funerals as baby killers?
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Neither is respectful. I think we can all agree that crashing a funeral to insult the deceased is outrageous behaviour. So is picking your nose in public. There are many behaviours that are socially unacceptable.

The question is whether offensiveness alone justifies making something illegal - that means the government can arrest, prosecute, and punish somebody for doing it.

I don't think the government should arrest a guy just for picking his nose in public. Wait until he flicks his boogers at passers-by, then it becomes harassment.

I don't think the WBC should be arrested just for standing around with picket signs. Wait until they disrupt the funeral service or trespass on private property.

I don't think NFL players should be arrested for disrespecting the flag and/or anthem. If you find their conduct offensive, stop attending their games.
 
Waddy said:
Rich123;

Players kneeling during the anthem is not a "First Amendment" Issue. They are at work and on company time. Courts have repeatedly ruled that you do not have a right to protest at work on company time. If they want to protest, they can go on strike. But then they would lose the money they make on each game. Obviously, they don't want to take the financial hit.

They are protesting law enforcement, supposedly. I can see why this subject is near and dear to them as arrests of NFL players averages about one per week. I'm sure they feel law enforcement is singling them out.

About kneeling and the flag. At a military funeral the flag would be presented to the spouse of deceased or his/her mother, and the soldier presenting the flag will normally kneel when he/she presents that flag. In this case kneeling is a sign of respect for the fallen. I suspect that is how Kapernick meant the kneel down to be legitimized. I doubt many of the players who have joined him even know about this custom. And in this case kneeling with your hand over your heart would be the appropriate way to do it.
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I agree that the courts have ruled that you do not have the right to protest on company time. And I agree with that ruling. I will go further to state that the arena is a public area and as such public protest require a permit. I will not agree that Donald Trump is so disturbed by this. It was a good issue to pick when Jared and other Trump family a white house staff was caught using their private e-mails for official business. Typical Trumpian diversion.

But to your point about not being able to protest at work, that is assuming that the management objected to your protest. Didn't some of the owners join in? I guess they can see Trumpiaqn bull**** too.
 
Chomsky said:
I'm late to this thread, but I will not wallow or predicate.

Instead, I will directly and unequivocal state that all three examples are equally protected free speech, and deserved of those protections. As distasteful as I find these examples, I stand behind my fellow Americans' right to speak their mind and freely express themselves.

Freedom and democracy are not easy. If you have a thin skin, you need apply elsewhere.
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I absolutely agree that they should be protected... I would add that although people have the right to do it they should be respectful of others and at times not do it.
 
APB212 said:
Neither is respectful. I think we can all agree that crashing a funeral to insult the deceased is outrageous behaviour. So is picking your nose in public. There are many behaviours that are socially unacceptable.

The question is whether offensiveness alone justifies making something illegal - that means the government can arrest, prosecute, and punish somebody for doing it.

I don't think the government should arrest a guy just for picking his nose in public. Wait until he flicks his boogers at passers-by, then it becomes harassment.

I don't think the WBC should be arrested just for standing around with picket signs. Wait until they disrupt the funeral service or trespass on private property.

I don't think NFL players should be arrested for disrespecting the flag and/or anthem. If you find their conduct offensive, stop attending their games.
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I agree with everything except the last part. The NFL are at a public arena, public protest require permits. Second they are at work, Courts have ruled against protesting at work. However the owners of the team joined in and I think that puts a different spin on the subject.

But we all know why Trump objects. He wanted a diversion from the looming scandal surrounding Jared Ivanka and other white house staff using their private e-mail for official business. Trump ranted endlessly about that subject on the campaign trail. Remember"LOCK HER UP" Oh that shoe fits on both feet.?:lol::lol::lol:
 
Rich123 said:
I agree with everything except the last part. The NFL are at a public arena, public protest require permits.
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That is ridiculous and defeats the purpose of protest. It also violates the First Amendment, which says Congress can't prohibit free speech or peaceable assembly, and has since been applied to the state governments as well. As long as those NFL players aren't breaking anything or interfering with other people, you can't stop their protest for lack of paperwork.

Second they are at work, Courts have ruled against protesting at work. However the owners of the team joined in and I think that puts a different spin on the subject.
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That's a matter between them and their employer. If they stop work to protest, their employer has the right to sack them, but otherwise it's none of the government's business.

But we all know why Trump objects. He wanted a diversion from the looming scandal surrounding Jared Ivanka and other white house staff using their private e-mail for official business. Trump ranted endlessly about that subject on the campaign trail. Remember"LOCK HER UP" Oh that shoe fits on both feet.?:lol::lol::lol:
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Trump is a dick. He objects because he's opinionated.
 
Bodhisattva said:
So... to all those claiming flag/anthem protesting is "respectful freedom of speech"... whom among you state that the Westboro Church Is expressing "respectful freedom of speech" when tbey are protesting soldiers furing their funerals as baby killers?


The debate is NOT about loudness or placards or calmly kneeling.

The debate IS ABOUT freedom of speech versus what is culturally considered polite or respectful behaviour.
Click to expand...
Both are free speech.

I personally view the kneeling protest as both respectful and positive.
Whereas, your example of the westboro baptist church shows the unfortunate negatives of free speech.


So my conclusion is that they are the same in some ways, but completely opposed in others.
 
Rich123 said:
I agree with everything except the last part. The NFL are at a public arena, public protest require permits. Second they are at work, Courts have ruled against protesting at work. However the owners of the team joined in and I think that puts a different spin on the subject.

But we all know why Trump objects. He wanted a diversion from the looming scandal surrounding Jared Ivanka and other white house staff using their private e-mail for official business. Trump ranted endlessly about that subject on the campaign trail. Remember"LOCK HER UP" Oh that shoe fits on both feet.?:lol::lol::lol:
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This was a big issue prior to Trump weighing in... agreed?

Since that is the case can we just leave the Straw Man partisan crap out of it?


Thnx...
 
The Mark said:
Both are free speech.

I personally view the kneeling protest as both respectful and positive.
Whereas, your example of the westboro baptist church shows the unfortunate negatives of free speech.


So my conclusion is that they are the same in some ways, but completely opposed in others.
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Is it respectful to protest the flag during the anthem and state that the reason for this is to protest the country for being racist? Lots of us certainly dont think that is either poitive or respectful.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Is it respectful to protest the flag during the anthem and state that the reason for this is to protest the country for being racist? Lots of us certainly dont think that is either poitive or respectful.
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There are far less respectful ways to protest, and it IS a protest, so you shouldn't be comfortable with it.
 
The Mark said:
There are far less respectful ways to protest, and it IS a protest, so you shouldn't be comfortable with it.
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I am comfortable with the protest and the reason for it... just not the manner of protest. It is disrespectful.
 
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