Kneeling vs funeral

Thorgasm said:

Stop playing the Anthem before sporting events.

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Why should we have to? Why is playing/single the national anthem not a form of free speech in itself?

Dragonfly said:

When a group targets people at a FUNERAL, and laughs while holding such signs,....that's borderline abuse in my mind.

Imagine being a parent, burying your child whose been killed, and then seeing that kind of crap at the funeral.
It's quite obviously a FAR different level of action.

There's no equating that to this:

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I agree. I think I'd lose it if it were my child.

X Factor said:

Interesting question, given how often we see the argument that protest and dissent are forms of patriotism in themselves. Something tells me we're not going to see that said about Westboro morons. This really isn't about the larger issue of whether free speech should be respected/protected but simply comes down to is whether someone agrees with the protest itself, or not. I don't think I've seen a single person whose agreed with NFL players say they're doing the wrong thing or someone say they disagree with the players but protesting during the anthem is a great idea. One of the worst arguments, IMO, is to argue that the content itself is what makes one ok and one not. If the argument is how awesome free speech is how awesome and patriotic people are who exercise it, then the content should be irrelevant.

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It's a weak attempt to try to say that agreeing with one form of protest means you agree with all forms of protest.

A family's grief, a very somber event, taken advantage of by selfish human beings vs selfishly turning what is supposed to be a moment honoring our country into a spectacle. The WBC has been dealt with effectively. We let them protest while shielding them from the funerals of fallen soldiers. A welcome gesture.
Can this be done during a game? Letting them kneel but turning your backs on them?

Thorgasm said:

Popular speech doesn't need protecting. Were you under the impression that the Founding Fathers were concerned that the government wouldn't let people agree with each other?

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I think the anthem protests suffer a political paradigm. The Government view is "My Country, right or wrong!" and the protestors view is "My Country is doing something wrong!" When you stand for the Anthem you are accepting all that the Nation is doing, good or bad, and that is what leaders want. Docile citizens. When you kneel for the Anthem you are protesting government policy on Race, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Taxation, or any number of other grievances. The leaders don't like this and try to shift the narrative that the protestors are unpatriotic not defending our soldiers and that is the real stretch that is in the MSM narrative. "Control the narrative." That is what MSM agenda is about. Wake up! It is a very respectful protest. The Government is pissed because they can't control the narrative. Patriotism is not about the flag unless you need one flag lapel pin to prove you are a Great Patriot like GWBush who started a war on false pretenses spoken clearly while he was wearing a lapel pin flag. Great Patriot, my ass. I take a knee to GWBush, among others.
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X Factor said:

Why should we have to? Why is playing/single the national anthem not a form of free speech in itself?

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"We" don't have a say in the matter. It is up to the owners of the league. Since it has become a divisive issue, it hurts their bottom line no matter what they do. It is not necessary to the game.

Thorgasm said:

"We" don't have a say in the matter. It is up to the owners of the league. Since it has become a divisive issue, it hurts their bottom line no matter what they do. It is not necessary to the game.

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That's funny considering how many felt they had a say in whether the players should be allowed to kneel or not during a game. Yeah, boycotting the anthem entirely would be real popular. Does the anthem really bother you that much? You must hate the Olympics.

Bodhisattva said:

So... to all those claiming flag/anthem protesting is "respectful freedom of speech"... whom among you state that the Westboro Church Is expressing "respectful freedom of speech" when tbey are protesting soldiers furing their funerals as baby killers?


The debate is NOT about loudness or placards or calmly kneeling.

The debate IS ABOUT freedom of speech versus what is culturally considered polite or respectful behaviour.

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Like it or lump it. Abortion and soldiers are technically and virtually baby killers. That is a specifically directed protest. The kneeling at the Anthem protest Government policy/policies. Each protestor kneeling needs a placard identifying his/her issue. It is a broad avenue for protest and a National forum. Wonderful and a stroke of genius. The Government and the MSM lose control of the narrative. That is the true issue.
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It's Sad Day when Negro's don't do what their told anymore ...

Without Control over people, what do you have? Freedom? Liberty?

X Factor said:

That's funny considering how many felt they had a say in whether the players should be allowed to kneel or not during a game. Yeah, boycotting the anthem entirely would be real popular. Does the anthem really bother you that much? You must hate the Olympics.

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That the best time to go to the Bar or take a leak ... before the real Action starts

All are freedom of speech. Calling the soldier ordered into battle a baby killer is freedom of speech however why not protest congress the people who ordered the killing. Disrespecting the soldier who put his life on the line for this country and doing what he is ordered to do is pathetic in my opinion.

Protesting a clinic where doctors and patients are killing fetuses is freedom of speech addressing the problem when and where it is happening. An acceptable form of protest.

Taking a knee is freedom of speech. Again why disrespect the flag and the anthem that represents over 100 million people who have not done anything wrong towards these players or black people. Instead they should address the problem when and where it is happening. Even most police are good people why target them because of the bad apples. Pathetic in my opinion.

Westboro Church is freedom of speech. I disagree with their views but they have the right to speak out. Who and what they protest is vast and a lot of their actions are pathetic and others are acceptable. I would have to take each case and make my own judgement.

I have been in protest and I like to be specific and address the root problem. I am not going to disrespect the flag and the anthem that represents 100's of millions of good people because our leaders got us into a war that should never have happened. I am going to protest our leaders not the soldiers dying following orders from the leaders of our country.

X Factor said:

That's funny considering how many felt they had a say in whether the players should be allowed to kneel or not during a game. Yeah, boycotting the anthem entirely would be real popular. Does the anthem really bother you that much? You must hate the Olympics.

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It doesn't bother me. I don't care if the Anthem isn't played though. I don't get upset if I miss watching the Anthem before a game. I watch for the game.

The Olympics are pretty lame to watch for the most part too. There are a few events I enjoy watching and rest I don't care about. The Anthem is much more appropriate at that venue though.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Honestly, I've never understood why people are saying kneeling is disrespectful.

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People are generally saying that the kneeling is disrespectful because the following:

1. The kneeling protests began with Colin Kaepernick
2. Many of those kneeling has suggested they are doing it in solidarity with the protest and point Colin Kaepernick was doing.
3. Colin Kaepernick's original claims for why he was protesting was not due to "loss of life." Rather, it was because:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"

This does not give the impression to many that the kneeling is done as a means to "mourn a hurt of the country", but rather specifically to show disagreement and disrespect to a country that they believe "oppresses black people and people of color".

Indeed, the original claims for why the protests were happening...WHY the anthem and the flag specifically were the central point in time for the protests...was not because it was a moment where people would be focused on it (indeed, he did it for two games without anyone noticing or drawing attention to himself; it was a personal thing at first). It was not because of raising awareness. It was not because it provided a platform. It was SPECIFICALLY because of a desire to not show respect and veneration towards a symbol of a country he believed was oppressing black people.

It was inherently an act of disrespect, or...at best...a lack of respect.

Now people may agree with his point, disagree with his point, not care about his point, whatever. They can believe that other players agree with him, don't agree with him, are doing it not for his reasons but in support of him as a person, because of Trump, whatever. However you come down on those various things is irrelevant; based on how this started and the reasons stated, it shouldn't be difficult to understand why people view the kneeling as an act of disrespect, and it's not simply "MURICA!" type logic.

It wholly depends on you mean "respectful".

If you mean "respectful" protest in the sense that it's non-violent; then yes, MOST instances of WBC protests would be similarly "respectful".

If you mean "respectful" protest in the sense that it's done in a tactful, non-offensive way; then you do enter more of an individual subjective realm of things, but I'd say by and large you'd find more people that suggest indicating that a recently deceased person is burning in hell, or died because "fags" are allowed rights and this is gods punishment, is a form of protest showing less tact and done in a more offensive manner than kneeling during the anthem.

HowardBThiname said:

Polls show that a majority of Americans find both to be disrespectful. Perhaps you are in a minority group that does not find one of them to be disrespectful, but that doesn't change that fact that most do.

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This is about the dumbest false equivalency ever. If you took a poll of Americans, I think that you would find most people would say that talking during a prayer at church is disrespectful. You would also find that most people would say that urinating on a picture of Jesus on the cross is disrespectful. However, most people would also argue that the latter is exponentially more disrespectful than the former and that only someone being extraordinarily intellectually dishonest would try to equate the two actions.

Similarly, while most Americans would argue that not standing for the anthem is disrespectful, they would not equate it to something as despicable as Westboro Members picketing a funeral and telling grieving parents their kid is burning in hell. I mean come the hell on. Surely you are not this damn ignorant.

The difference between the NFL protests and the Westboro folks is the fact that CK is disrespecting (using that word loosely), a symbol that represents 300 million plus. The “church’ people are making the protest personal at a very emotional time for a grieving family. Yes, they both fall under protection of free speech, same but different.

Rexedgar said:

The difference between the NFL protests and the Westboro folks is the fact that CK is disrespecting (using that word loosely), a symbol that represents 300 million plus. The “church’ people are making the protest personal at a very emotional time for a grieving family. Yes, they both fall under protection of free speech, same but different.

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That's pretty much my thoughts on the matter as well. A funeral is a very personal event and showing up and protesting that event is just protesting an individual. That person has no or very little power. They didn't make the rules and play a very very very small part in whatever your pissed off about. At the same time, that protest deeply impacts that family.

Dragonfly said:

Dear god Bodhi.....:roll:

Tell me, what's so "respectful" about this????

Can you seriously not see a difference?

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Yes. They are more disrespectful.

Dragonfly said:

When a group targets people at a FUNERAL, and laughs while holding such signs,....that's borderline abuse in my mind.

Imagine being a parent, burying your child whose been killed, and then seeing that kind of crap at the funeral.
It's quite obviously a FAR different level of action.

There's no equating that to this:

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Then why can I equate them?

Dragonfly said:

Not to mention while most of the fans are drinking alcohol and basically in a very party-like mood.

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It is like... cultural norms... WHOOOSH!!

Also, let remember how "honorable" many fans are when there's a fan nearby who just happens to be wearing the jersey of the away team.

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Straw Man.

holbritter said:

The more I think about it, the harder the question is. I automatically think it's obvious what is respectful. IMO, the Westboro Church protests are not respectful. You say the debate is not about loudness or placards, but I think that's exactly what makes it respectful or not. To me, anything loud - in your face - hyperbole placards, can be considered not respectful.

I also think I need more coffee right now.

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SmokeAndMirrors said:

Yeah, this is what I don't get. We're told not the vote on the only difference between them, which is the approach. It's the same laws protecting them, so that's the delineating factor, isn't it?

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I dont nderstand what is so difficult.


The debate IS ABOUT what is culturally considered polite or respectful behaviour

Thorgasm said:

Why are we under the impression that every time grown men/women get together to play childhood games that we must treat it like a funeral for soldiers?

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I think i threw you all off with the freedom of speech.

The debate IS ABOUT what is culturally considered polite or respectful behaviour.

People keep Red Herring. They keep saying since it is peaceful it is respectful. I am trying to tie togethrr things that are free speech but not respectful.

Redress said:

Both are legal. Other than that, you are trying to whine about why people like apples but not oranges...

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Whine comment indicates a post not to be taken seriously...

Redress said:

I know that one! If you can’t argue with facts, try drastic appeals to emotion!

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The irony is rich. :lol:

molten_dragon said:

Both cases are obviously protected speech. That's not really up for debate.

But what the Westboro baptist church is doing is incredibly disrespectful. Kneeling during the national anthem isn't.

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Even within the framework of what is considered cultural norms?

HowardBThiname said:

Wrong analysis.

Both a funeral and the playing of the anthem are times when people should show respect. The "game" factor is irrelevant.

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****ing A!!

Somebody finally gets it!!

Thank you...

Thorgasm said:

How does this help homeless vets or those getting subpar VA healthcare? It's cultish B.S.

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Straw Man...

Also WHOOOSH!!!

Stop playing the Anthem before sporting events

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Straw Man. Irrelevant.

HowardBThiname said:

The two are definitely related.

Both kneelers and Westboro nuts are making a statement through an action that is repulsive to society at large.

Both have been condemned by people who believe respect is proper during the playing of the anthem and at the funerals of soldiers.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Patriot Guard riders (the motorcycle group that positions themselves between Westboro protesters and the public) would do the same thing at NFL games to block the public's view of the kneeling players.

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If people are genuinely repulsed by the footballers kneeling, they need to get a life.