Is there social and racial injustice in the US today?

cabse5 said:

The racist nonsense is that the US is racist.

Click to expand...

Says the person that think black "culture" is inner city gang culture. :doh

Black Dog said:

That is a load of crap. The majority of blacks are not any of those things. You are basically saying inner city blacks represent blacks and their culture?

That is just ignorant racist nonsense. The vast majority of blacks do not live in the inner city and are again not any of those things you suggest.

Click to expand...

Since you seem to want to differentiate between inner-city blacks and other blacks, why don't you provide statistics of both groups encountering the police? I'll bet there aren't such statistics. Would disprove your 'the police are racist' theory. You think every black family is a 'blackish' family? Huh?

Come on, chump. You're the one who called me racist.

devildavid said:

No, you clearly missed the point. The point is for us to stop oppressing them to allow them to have a chance to succeed.

Click to expand...

Then that begs the question of what "we" are doing to oppress blacks. While there may be instances of outright oppression based on race there is, generally speaking, nobody standing in the way of any person, black or other, getting an education, getting a job, finding a place to live or reaping the benefits of their own work. Blacks have seen success in all fields of industry and politics. They have succeeded in arts, sports and entertainment. There is no institutional barrier to black participation or success that hasn't been knocked down, stomped on and left on the ash heap of history. Yes, those barriers existed in the past but not today. Today our society is more welcoming to racial, ethnic, gender and religious diversity than it ever has been. The instances of racial bias are few and far between but, for some reason, a few folks seek out those instances in an effort to "prove" that there is still a massive conspiracy of oppression. Why? What benefit could they possibly find in promoting such a conspiracy?

I'll tell you what benefit they can find. As long as some people can convince a given population that they are oppressed the more they can step in and act as "savior" to that population. The more political power they will hold over that population. The more resources they can extract from that population. The longer they can keep that population from achieving independence the longer they can control that population. You can not be master of that which you don't control so, to remain master of these groups a few folks promote a story of widespread oppression and abuse that, for all practical purposes, doesn't exist.

Lutherf said:

Then that begs the question of what "we" are doing to oppress blacks. While there may be instances of outright oppression based on race there is, generally speaking, nobody standing in the way of any person, black or other, getting an education, getting a job, finding a place to live or reaping the benefits of their own work. Blacks have seen success in all fields of industry and politics. They have succeeded in arts, sports and entertainment. There is no institutional barrier to black participation or success that hasn't been knocked down, stomped on and left on the ash heap of history. Yes, those barriers existed in the past but not today. Today our society is more welcoming to racial, ethnic, gender and religious diversity than it ever has been. The instances of racial bias are few and far between but, for some reason, a few folks seek out those instances in an effort to "prove" that there is still a massive conspiracy of oppression. Why? What benefit could they possibly find in promoting such a conspiracy?

I'll tell you what benefit they can find. As long as some people can convince a given population that they are oppressed the more they can step in and act as "savior" to that population. The more political power they will hold over that population. The more resources they can extract from that population. The longer they can keep that population from achieving independence the longer they can control that population. You can not be master of that which you don't control so, to remain master of these groups a few folks promote a story of widespread oppression and abuse that, for all practical purposes, doesn't exist.

Click to expand...

If we are oppressing in any way it is a valid reason that the oppressed are held back. Oppression of blacks is a historical fact in this country and was a major cause in holding them back. When did it end?

devildavid said:

If we are oppressing in any way it is a valid reason that the oppressed are held back. Oppression of blacks is a historical fact in this country and was a major cause in holding them back. When did it end?

Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that anybody born after 1980 or so has witnessed anything significant as far as systemic racism goes. The institutional barriers pretty much all came down in the 50's and 60's. In some localities things may have persisted for another 20 years or so but today you have to look long and hard now to find even vestigial evidence of their existence.

devildavid said:

Anyone can be oppressed. I would have to ask Lebron James if he experienced oppression in order to answer your question.

Click to expand...

I agree that anyone can be oppressed in their mind and point to problems they have had with x,y,z. That being said if anyone can be oppressed, what does it mean to be oppressed and how would we fix it?

devildavid said:

Anyone can be oppressed. I would have to ask Lebron James if he experienced oppression in order to answer your question.

Click to expand...

If not getting one's way is considered oppression, then everyone is oppressed. I admit, even I'm oppressed. I guess everyone is narcissistic, too.

Is everyone allowed a chance at success? If that answer is no, that is an indication of oppression. When was LeBron not given the chance to succeed?

fredmertzz said:

The country is divided regarding the means of protest that the NFL Players are using to bring attention to social and racial injustice.

But we aren’t debating whether there is social and racial injustice.

If it exists, what do we do about it?
If it doesn’t exist, why is it perceived to exist? And what do we do about it?

**Please, don’t let this particular debate fall into an argument over whether or not kneeling was appropriate. There were other threads about this.

Click to expand...

Yes, it still exists, though I don't think it's quite as bad as the left paints it. That the degrees of injustice are smaller is small comfort for something that shouldn't be happening, though. One of the reasons why I don't believe it's as bad as what is being stated is that I believe it is more of a cultural issue.

Give me any self-righteous social justice warrior and put them on the police force in many of our cities and I'll put every cent I own that they will run smack-dab right into the same issues, and participate, in the very same things they complain about. Why? It's damned dangerous in these areas. Police officers are significantly more likely to be killed by a black man than a white one. Look at violent crime and homicide rates in black communities. What's the chance that a black person will be killed by a police officer? Answer: 0.00000646485%. That's counting every single one of the 258 blacks that were killed by officers last year, ,which is significantly higher than what it would be if we only counted those killed under questionable circumstances.

If the community focused more on curbing criminal activity in their own ranks, put more emphasis on education, put more effort into improving their own local communities, ect...you'd see a lot of these issues go almost completely away.

I read through this thread and what is missing are some pretty pertinent facts.

I don't care what race you are but if you start your adult life out as a single mother then you have bought a ticket to poverty. Single mother births are on the rise in all races but especially for the black race. It has now surpassed 70% of all births born are to single mothers.

Study after study also shows that those children born in single parent homes tend to be more susceptible to behavior problems and a greater risk to engage in criminal activity and addicted to drugs.
My personal opinion is little girl's first encounter with the opposite sex is her daddy. If he is a good one, he teaches her self worth. Girls without a daddy or loving grandpas can end up looking for love to fill that void she missed out on as a child in all the wrong ways. A young boy without a good dad doesn't have someone around daily teaching him to be a man starting by example providing for the family.
Regardless of your race, I have no doubt those who live in poverty feel oppressed. But shouldn't there be a personal accountability for their situation? Or is it like it has been since the beginning of time in the Garden where Adam blamed Eve. There's an old saying, "To err is human, to blame it on someone else is even more human."

There's a book “The War on Cops: How the New Attack on Law and Order Makes Everyone Less Safe,” by Stanford’s Heather MacDonald, I think she is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and she cites simple Obama Administration FBI crime stats that disprove the rhetoric on which Black Lives Matter is based.

Remember the rhetoric we were privy to Black Lives Matter (BLM) activists in St. Paul, Minnesota marching in the streets yelling, “Pigs in a blanket, fry ‘em like bacon” or BLM protestors in New York City chanting, “What do we want? Dead Cops! When do we want it? Now!” And that was just last year, and now Antifa are shouting the same crap. But if you pay attention to color a lot of these crowds are full of white activists. And wasn't it Kaepernick who took the first knee the one who is known for his socks depicting cops as pigs and while wearing a Fidel Castro tee shirt in speaking out against his taking a knee claim black oppression when it was Castro that did a heck of a number on oppressing his own people. But only folks who were lucky enough to get a decent education probably know that.

According to her Black and Hispanic cops are far more likely – 3.3 times – than white cops to shoot unarmed black suspects. While they are only 6 percent of the population, black males make up 40 percent of all cop killers. Thus, McDonald determines that a Police Officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is likely to be killed by a cop.

She also states that Blacks commit homicide at a rate eight times higher than Whites and Hispanics combined. Blacks are 13 percent of the population but commit 52 percent of all murders. Statistics like that from Obama's own FBI surely explains why Black men are often in tense situations with police.

But all it takes is a white cop to shoot a black in a confrontation and it becomes a racial issue.

This isn't a racial issue. It is an attack on another institution of law and order being funded by the leftist WHITE rich Left.

If people really want to turn things around, there needs to be more black leaders in the community that encourage ways that bring about prosperity, not Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton because they are part of the problem. but usually those strung out on drugs and involved in criminal activity are not interested in what they have to say.
Instead of taking a knee or sitting on the bench in protest, those NFL players who make milllions of dollars a year should be pouring millions into black communities with inspiration to help turn their lives around. But nah it is cheaper and easier to take a knee. Got it.

Lutherf said:

I seriously doubt that anybody born after 1980 or so has witnessed anything significant as far as systemic racism goes. The institutional barriers pretty much all came down in the 50's and 60's. In some localities things may have persisted for another 20 years or so but today you have to look long and hard now to find even vestigial evidence of their existence.

Click to expand...

Is this from a white or black point of view?

washunut said:

I agree that anyone can be oppressed in their mind and point to problems they have had with x,y,z. That being said if anyone can be oppressed, what does it mean to be oppressed and how would we fix it?

Click to expand...

No, anyone can be oppressed in reality by those who dominate whatever social situation they find themselves in. It is not merely in their mind.

We fix it by not grouping up against those considered outside of the dominant group and welcoming them with open arms as equals.

cabse5 said:

If not getting one's way is considered oppression, then everyone is oppressed. I admit, even I'm oppressed. I guess everyone is narcissistic, too.

Is everyone allowed a chance at success? If that answer is no, that is an indication of oppression. When was LeBron not given the chance to succeed?

Click to expand...

No, oppression is not about not getting your way. It is about being singled out as lesser beings and treated as such.

cabse5 said:

I voted other. In the case of African-American culture (social), this injustice occurs because African-American culture is anti-police, anti-education, anti-family and pro-drugs. If African-American culture would reverse even two of these 'hillbilly' traits, their harassment would go down. I guess, though, everyone has the right to be stupid.

Click to expand...

African Americans do not have hillbilly traits. White southerners who live in the hills and backwoods have hillbilly traits. Do you have a problem with them?

Of course it does.

Also economic injustice.

The degree of injustice varies depending on where you are, who you are, who you know, how much money you have, who you were, what sex you are, and what 'race' you are. Probably others as well.

Generally speaking, you're better off if you're white, male, heterosexual, and rich.

In that order.

The inequality between that and those who are not that has lessened over the years, but it still exists, and is in some areas concentrated (I think).

cabse5 said:

Since you seem to want to differentiate between inner-city blacks and other blacks, why don't you provide statistics of both groups encountering the police?

Click to expand...

Why? You are making the claim that most if not all blacks are... African-American culture is anti-police, anti-education, anti-family and pro-drugs. So point out the "statistics" that this is indeed "black culture."

cabse5 said:

I'll bet there aren't such statistics.

Click to expand...

Probably not. I mean most people sociologists etc are not making such a racist, asinine claim.

cabse5 said:

Would disprove your 'the police are racist' theory. You think every black family is a 'blackish' family? Huh?

Click to expand...

#1 Please feel free to point out where I said the police are racist?
#2 Yea nothing racist about "You think every black family is a 'blackish' family?"

cabse5 said:

Come on, chump. You're the one who called me racist.

Click to expand...

No I called your comments racist. You might want to go back and read what I actually said about your racist statements.

cabse5 said:

I voted other. In the case of African-American culture (social), this injustice occurs because African-American culture is anti-police, anti-education, anti-family and pro-drugs. If African-American culture would reverse even two of these 'hillbilly' traits, their harassment would go down. I guess, though, everyone has the right to be stupid.

Click to expand...

I see you've known any or met any black people.

You might want to reconsider referencing people being stupid.

faithful_servant said:

Of course there is. The question should be "Is there social/racial injustice at the level that SJW types would like us to think there is?"

Click to expand...

You're going down a dangerous road here. I agree that MANY of the SJW's go beyond the reasonable expectation of resolution. But pointing them out doesn't negate the fact that there IS a problem. It's still just deflection.

faithful_servant said:

"50% of all traffic stops are done to women!!! That means that half of the traffic stops are gender based by sexist traffic cops!!" Sounds pretty stupid, but that's EXACTLY how you sound...

Click to expand...

It seems you need to be educated on statistics. That post isn't simply stating that more blacks are being committed than whites. Though it is true, it's also true that they have a higher crime rate.

The statistic I quoted are OF THOSE WHO ARE SENTENCED. It's a comparative statistic relative to each subset - the subsets being the criminals of each race. It sounds stupid if you can't understand it, I'm sure.

To try to explain it in your terms, 50% of stops are of women. 50% are of men. However, women pay 10% more on their tickets than men. That 10% is OF THOSE who were stopped. The subset.

Similarly, OF THOSE who are prosecuted for similar charges, the sentence for a black person will be 10% longer on average. OF THOSE being prosecuted, there's a 20% more chance for a black man to go to jail.

See how statistics work?

Lutherf said:

So, basically, you're saying that merely because of the color of their skin blacks are incapable of fixing problems in their own communities and require the assistance of a superior race? Is that what you're getting at because that's sure as hell what it sounds like.

Click to expand...

What if the problems in some of those communities aren't born in those communities? How are you supposed to fix a corrupt outside force? How do you fight that... better for that outside force to fix themselves.

Lutherf said:

I seriously doubt that anybody born after 1980 or so has witnessed anything significant as far as systemic racism goes. The institutional barriers pretty much all came down in the 50's and 60's. In some localities things may have persisted for another 20 years or so but today you have to look long and hard now to find even vestigial evidence of their existence.

Click to expand...

Please correct me if I'm wrong... you're saying that blacks have every opportunity to be as successful as whites in this country - that the barriers no longer exist. And it is proven through the successes of some black people. I'm curious on your thoughts as to why there is such a vast difference in unemployment and income between whites and blacks. What is the cause of the disparity if the barriers don't exist?

It may sound like I'm trying to trap you, but I'm really not. I'm not planning my next move of calling you "RACIST!!!!" or anything. The disparity exists. Why? My belief is there is a barrier to success put their by our society. You think I'm wrong. Please explain the disparity.

vesper said:

I read through this thread and what is missing are some pretty pertinent facts.

I don't care what race you are but if you start your adult life out as a single mother then you have bought a ticket to poverty. Single mother births are on the rise in all races but especially for the black race. It has now surpassed 70% of all births born are to single mothers.

Study after study also shows that those children born in single parent homes tend to be more susceptible to behavior problems and a greater risk to engage in criminal activity and addicted to drugs.
My personal opinion is little girl's first encounter with the opposite sex is her daddy. If he is a good one, he teaches her self worth. Girls without a daddy or loving grandpas can end up looking for love to fill that void she missed out on as a child in all the wrong ways. A young boy without a good dad doesn't have someone around daily teaching him to be a man starting by example providing for the family.
Regardless of your race, I have no doubt those who live in poverty feel oppressed. But shouldn't there be a personal accountability for their situation? Or is it like it has been since the beginning of time in the Garden where Adam blamed Eve. There's an old saying, "To err is human, to blame it on someone else is even more human."

There's a book “The War on Cops: How the New Attack on Law and Order Makes Everyone Less Safe,” by Stanford’s Heather MacDonald, I think she is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and she cites simple Obama Administration FBI crime stats that disprove the rhetoric on which Black Lives Matter is based.

According to her Black and Hispanic cops are far more likely – 3.3 times – than white cops to shoot unarmed black suspects. While they are only 6 percent of the population, black males make up 40 percent of all cop killers. Thus, McDonald determines that a Police Officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is likely to be killed by a cop.

She also states that Blacks commit homicide at a rate eight times higher than Whites and Hispanics combined. Blacks are 13 percent of the population but commit 52 percent of all murders. Statistics like that from Obama's own FBI surely explains why Black men are often in tense situations with police.

But all it takes is a white cop to shoot a black in a confrontation and it becomes a racial issue.

This isn't a racial issue. It is an attack on another institution of law and order being funded by the leftist WHITE rich Left.

If people really want to turn things around, there needs to be more black leaders in the community that encourage ways that bring about prosperity, not Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton because they are part of the problem. but usually those strung out on drugs and involved in criminal activity are not interested in what they have to say.
Instead of taking a knee or sitting on the bench in protest, those NFL players who make milllions of dollars a year should be pouring millions into black communities with inspiration to help turn their lives around. But nah it is cheaper and easier to take a knee. Got it.

Click to expand...

I love this response.

I respect police officers SO much. And they NEED to be careful. Statistics do not lie.

And yes, there does need to be personal, individual accountability.

That being said, it needs to be balanced with the knowledge of history. Why are blacks more inclined to be in the cycle of single parent in poverty, raising a child who is more likely to be a criminal and/or single parent in poverty? Do we ignore the history of how that cycle started and simply say: "Be responsible for your life!" when it's not their fault that they are in that cycle to begin with? Whose responsibility is to to break the cycle?

It's not about punishing whites by not giving them the same help. It's about removing that barrier for minorities that whites do not generally have. It's about making it an equal playing field for a few generations until the problem is fixed.

We can't simply say: "here's an equal opportunity, we pay for it ourselves so you must too", when we've put them in a cyclical-position of not being able to pay for it. That doesn't fix the problem. That just gives racists enough ammunition to say "I did it, you didn't" and put their head in the sand when you try to explain they started on 2nd base while blacks are still waiting for a turn to bat.

fredmertzz said:

I love this response.

I respect police officers SO much. And they NEED to be careful. Statistics do not lie.

And yes, there does need to be personal, individual accountability.

That being said, it needs to be balanced with the knowledge of history. Why are blacks more inclined to be in the cycle of single parent in poverty, raising a child who is more likely to be a criminal and/or single parent in poverty? Do we ignore the history of how that cycle started and simply say: "Be responsible for your life!" when it's not their fault that they are in that cycle to begin with? Whose responsibility is to to break the cycle?

It's not about punishing whites by not giving them the same help. It's about removing that barrier for minorities that whites do not generally have. It's about making it an equal playing field for a few generations until the problem is fixed.

We can't simply say: "here's an equal opportunity, we pay for it ourselves so you must too", when we've put them in a cyclical-position of not being able to pay for it. That doesn't fix the problem. That just gives racists enough ammunition to say "I did it, you didn't" and put their head in the sand when you try to explain they started on 2nd base while blacks are still waiting for a turn to bat.

Click to expand...

I'm happy that you loved my response but the fact that millions upon millions have not been poured into the Black communities leaving them to not even get to bat is just not true.

Since the 1960's and President Johnson's Great Society legislation started pouring federal monies into the poor focusing on blacks in general to offer them better education money for housing, utilities, etc. but after a few decades of this it became evident that those who were benefiting were very few but actually the majority had actually become dependent on the funds. It didn't do anything to lift them out of poverty but instead addicted them to government handouts.
This stretches across all races.
As an example meet Mr.White who shops a Walmart collecting subsidies from the government. Mr. White can afford his Busch Beer on grocery day on the first of the month but he can't provide glasses for his kid that Walmart offers for about the same cost of a case of beer. Do you get my drift?

vesper said:

I'm happy that you loved my response but the fact that millions upon millions have not been poured into the Black communities leaving them to not even get to bat is just not true.

Since the 1960's and President Johnson's Great Society legislation started pouring federal monies into the poor focusing on blacks in general to offer them better education money for housing, utilities, etc. but after a few decades of this it became evident that those who were benefiting were very few but actually the majority had actually become dependent on the funds. It didn't do anything to lift them out of poverty but instead addicted them to government handouts.
This stretches across all races.
As an example meet Mr.White who shops a Walmart collecting subsidies from the government. Mr. White can afford his Busch Beer on grocery day on the first of the month but he can't provide glasses for his kid that Walmart offers for about the same cost of a case of beer. Do you get my drift?

Click to expand...

I catch your drift. I didn't claim, nor would I, that efforts haven't been made.

But as you said, those efforts did not help. They created a different problem (dependency on government handouts) without fixing the cyclical problem that society created in the first place.

I'm not suggesting more of the same. I'm only hoping that 1) we acknowledge there IS a problem that society created and didn't fix and 2) we fix it.

Maybe we start subsidizing single mothers, but also create a) burden of proof and b) consequence or returning funds with interest if systems are taken advantage of. We need to implement that accountability, even if the costs outweigh the financial gains.
Maybe we start levying fines against establishments, both public and private, for egregious statistical anomalies such as frisking 85% of blacks in traffic stops.

Mostly, we need the leaders of this country to publicly acknowledge the problems that exist, the solutions that have failed, and presenting fresh solutions long overdue. Those leaders need to be pushing all communities to be responsible with the chances they are given to better our society. We need to become a united society in reality, not just on paper.

fredmertzz said:

It seems you need to be educated on statistics. That post isn't simply stating that more blacks are being committed than whites. Though it is true, it's also true that they have a higher crime rate.

The statistic I quoted are OF THOSE WHO ARE SENTENCED. It's a comparative statistic relative to each subset - the subsets being the criminals of each race. It sounds stupid if you can't understand it, I'm sure.

To try to explain it in your terms, 50% of stops are of women. 50% are of men. However, women pay 10% more on their tickets than men. That 10% is OF THOSE who were stopped. The subset.

Similarly, OF THOSE who are prosecuted for similar charges, the sentence for a black person will be 10% longer on average. OF THOSE being prosecuted, there's a 20% more chance for a black man to go to jail.

See how statistics work?

Click to expand...

I well understand how statistics work and I understand how people manipulate them to get the results they want.

You state that blacks have a higher crime rate than whites do (most of the time, just making that factual statement gets one branded as a racist). But what about the the repeat offenses, the violence of the crimes, the known associations with criminal groups...??? There are a lot of other issues that drive the discrepancies other than race. But when the discrepancies are looked at, too many people simply see race and nothing else. This is leading us to fight against racism to a vastly greater extent than it warrants. What we should be doing is addressing the crime rate, the membership in gangs, the culture of violence and crime that is pervasive among young urban blacks. When you limit the cause of the discrepancy to only issue (which IMO is one of the smaller issues), then you also limit your ability to solve the real problem - the horrifically high crime rate among young urban black males. It's like finding a dirty streak on your car and spending massive amounts of money to develop a new paint that will prevent dirt from sticking to your paint because you think think that there's dirt everywhere and you need to stop it from sticking to your car, when the real problem is that you have a horrible oil leak that's going to ruin your engine. You've decided what the problem is and are now failing to deal with real problem because you just spent 100X more than a new engine would cost developing dirt-proof paint and your engine sounds like a tire iron in barrel rolling down a hill. But you've got a million people out there cheering you on for your paint development efforts, all while your car just keeps getting dirtier....

faithful_servant said:

I well understand how statistics work and I understand how people manipulate them to get the results they want.

You state that blacks have a higher crime rate than whites do (most of the time, just making that factual statement gets one branded as a racist). But what about the the repeat offenses, the violence of the crimes, the known associations with criminal groups...??? There are a lot of other issues that drive the discrepancies other than race. But when the discrepancies are looked at, too many people simply see race and nothing else. This is leading us to fight against racism to a vastly greater extent than it warrants. What we should be doing is addressing the crime rate, the membership in gangs, the culture of violence and crime that is pervasive among young urban blacks. When you limit the cause of the discrepancy to only issue (which IMO is one of the smaller issues), then you also limit your ability to solve the real problem - the horrifically high crime rate among young urban black males. It's like finding a dirty streak on your car and spending massive amounts of money to develop a new paint that will prevent dirt from sticking to your paint because you think think that there's dirt everywhere and you need to stop it from sticking to your car, when the real problem is that you have a horrible oil leak that's going to ruin your engine. You've decided what the problem is and are now failing to deal with real problem because you just spent 100X more than a new engine would cost developing dirt-proof paint and your engine sounds like a tire iron in barrel rolling down a hill. But you've got a million people out there cheering you on for your paint development efforts, all while your car just keeps getting dirtier....

Click to expand...

Terrible analogy. And you offer no other explanation of the cause of "real" problem other than "bad culture". So why do you think (young urban) blacks have their own "bad" culture that is not part of the larger culture? And why does that culture represent (in your mind) black culture?