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Party for change

Skeptic Bob said:
Very interesting but the problem with that is it is only using legislation that was permitted to go to the floor for a vote as a metric. Much of the more progressive stuff people like Bernie have pushed over the years were never even permitted to go to the floor. It would be interesting to see such a score card using introduced sponsored and co-sponsored bills as a metric.
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Some lefties are smart enough to understand that wearing a 'socialist' label turns many voters off, so they call themselves 'progressive' instead - it's just a word which they thinks sounds nicer.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
The Democratic Party, when it actually wins elections, is a party that believes in the notion of "good government" and incremental change (and keeps the identity politics tamped down). When the Democratic Party doesn't win outside of their base areas, it is typically because the base is demanding changes that are so sweeping (and at times almost utopian in how poorly thought out they are), that those changes are politically impossible. Example: Ideas like Universal Free College or Bernie's Medicare for all.
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I agree with you in large part.
But you identify Medicare expansion as a liberal idea when it isn't. It's an expansion of a moderate idea. Universal coverage for higher education is also a moderate idea.

Healthcare should be a right just like Bernie says. And a right to higher education isn't far behind.

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I have to tell you Southern Democrat,. I barely got a good debate from anyone on this website. I can defend the positions on the far-right better than they can. Those on the left are jokers, they have no perspective.
Is there anyone that can take me on? I already know the answer to that, it's no

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Dirt Sands said:
I agree with you in large part.
But you identify Medicare expansion as a liberal idea when it isn't. It's an expansion of a moderate idea. Universal coverage for higher education is also a moderate idea.

Healthcare should be a right just like Bernie says. And a right to higher education isn't far behind.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The cost for Medicare for all was estimated by the Urban Institute to be 32 trillion dollars over 10 years. That's hardly a moderate idea. There are lots of ways to get to universal coverage without single payer.
 
Dirt Sands said:
Is the Democratic party a progressive party that believes in change?

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Click to expand...

No. They stopped being an agent of change and have fully embraced a doctrine of keeping things the same. They claim to still be the ones who want change, but based on their actions, the only changes they want to see is in the people who don't line up with their doctrine. The Dem. party has become the epitome of the "good old boys" network and for far too much of the Dem. public, they've lost their way and have become the entrenched, monolithic voting bloc that keeps the Dem. pols in power.
 
Dirt Sands said:
I agree with you in large part.
But you identify Medicare expansion as a liberal idea when it isn't. It's an expansion of a moderate idea. Universal coverage for higher education is also a moderate idea.

Healthcare should be a right just like Bernie says. And a right to higher education isn't far behind.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I don't know of anyone who is denied the right to either health insurance or a higher education. In fact, the poorer have more access to these things than the lower middle class.
 
Dirt Sands said:
Is the Democratic party a progressive party that believes in change?

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Don't be silly, "both" parties exist to serve the donor class alone and thus the status quo by definition.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
The cost for Medicare for all was estimated by the Urban Institute to be 32 trillion dollars over 10 years. That's hardly a moderate idea. There are lots of ways to get to universal coverage without single payer.
Click to expand...
Things like Medicare and Social Security are both moderate ideas. Because it may be expensive doesn't make it liberal. As I've said before, in Washington state you have the choice of six health care plans of private insurance companies paid for by Medicare. Obamacare totally works. It is the states that screwed up implementation.

Are you are you saying that all the countries in the west that provide Medical to all as a right are liberal. They are able to provide medical care to everyone at half the cost of the United States.

All Western Nations believe Medical Care is a right except for the United States.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
Dirt Sands said:
Things like Medicare and Social Security are both moderate ideas. Because it may be expensive doesn't make it liberal. As I've said before, in Washington state you have the choice of six health care plans of private insurance companies paid for by Medicare. Obamacare totally works. It is the states that screwed up implementation.

Are you are you saying that all the countries in the west that provide Medical to all as a right are liberal. They are able to provide medical care to everyone at half the cost of the United States.

All Western Nations believe Medical Care is a right except for the United States.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I am all for universal healthcare. I am going to repeat a post I made about this issue though in a different thread.

Bernie's Medicare for all bill is nonsense. If you introduce a bill that fundamentally changes nearly 1/5th of the economy and you don't have a funding mechanism, then you don't have a serious bill. It's just like the "repeal and replace" garbage we heard for years out of Republicans. Their ideas were never serious and it showed this year.

People need to get it through their thick heads, we will not have single payer in this country. The time to have done so was 30 or 40 years ago when our peer nations did it, not today when healthcare is nearly 1/5th of GDP. Yesterday I listened to an interview with Bernie about his bill on NPR. He correctly pointed out we pay for more per-capita in this country for healthcare than any of our peer nations and do not get better results. Yes, that is absolutely true. He then put the blame for it on insurance companies and big pharma.

1. Pharmaceuticals are 10% of healthcare costs. You could give every drug away for free, and healthcare costs would still be far higher than our peer nations. That is not to say that drugs are not expensive and something needs to be done, but its not a panacea.

2. Even if you take out every dollar of profit from private insurers, every bonus they give out, all of it, you will take a family health insurance down from day 21k a year to 19k a year. Still way more than our peer nations.

Point being, our healthcare is more expensive because our providers make more than they would anywhere else. Our hospitals offer more amenities than they do anywhere else. We do more testing, often unnecessarily, than they do any where else. For example, patients here expect a private room. Anywhere else you don't get a private room in a hospital unless you have a communicable disease. Otherwise you are in a multi-bed ward. Our hospitals here are like hotels compared to other countries. That doesn't lead to better care, but it does lead to more amenities. My point being is that your specialist here in the states is not going to all of a sudden take a pay cut from 600 or 800k a year to 300k a year. We are not going to all of a sudden build European style hospitals that are economically much more efficient, but offer less amenities. People over hear are not going to accept an HMO style system where you can't just up and decide to go to a specialist and get a bunch of testing (which you probably don't need), but rather have to be referred by your primary.

My point in all of this is that health systems in other countries are far more efficient than ours is because they do things completely differently and people here will throw a fit about such a system even if it is better.

Also, most people that are concerned about healthcare costs blame insurers, when they are but a symptom. BCBS is not why anesthesiologists double bill for their nurses, they are not why hospitals routinely bill 400 dollars for a 20 dollar metabolic panel, they are not why plastic surgeons bill 20k for a few minutes of their time to put in a couple of facial stitches after trauma. They are not the reason why there are oncologists that slow down the rate of chemo infusions just to increase their billing. They are not why a whole consulting industry has cropped up in the last 20 years whose whole purpose is to show providers how to maximize billing all the way to the legal line of fraud. All single payer would accomplish is changing who pays those bills when the real problem is the exorbitant size of the bills.

Instead of focusing on pie and the sky crap like single payer which will never happen, why not look the real problems that are driving up costs so much in this country like our fee-for-service model of care?
 
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SouthernDemocrat said:
I am all for universal healthcare. I am going to repeat a post I made about this issue though in a different thread.

Bernie's Medicare for all bill is nonsense. If you introduce a bill that fundamentally changes nearly 1/5th of the economy and you don't have a funding mechanism, then you don't have a serious bill. It's just like the "repeal and replace" garbage we heard for years out of Republicans. Their ideas were never serious and it showed this year.

People need to get it through their thick heads, we will not have single payer in this country. The time to have done so was 30 or 40 years ago when our peer nations did it, not today when healthcare is nearly 1/5th of GDP. Yesterday I listened to an interview with Bernie about his bill on NPR. He correctly pointed out we pay for more per-capita in this country for healthcare than any of our peer nations and do not get better results. Yes, that is absolutely true. He then put the blame for it on insurance companies and big pharma.

1. Pharmaceuticals are 10% of healthcare costs. You could give every drug away for free, and healthcare costs would still be far higher than our peer nations. That is not to say that drugs are not expensive and something needs to be done, but its not a panacea.

2. Even if you take out every dollar of profit from private insurers, every bonus they give out, all of it, you will take a family health insurance down from day 21k a year to 19k a year. Still way more than our peer nations.

Point being, our healthcare is more expensive because our providers make more than they would anywhere else. Our hospitals offer more amenities than they do anywhere else. We do more testing, often unnecessarily, than they do any where else. For example, patients here expect a private room. Anywhere else you don't get a private room in a hospital unless you have a communicable disease. Otherwise you are in a multi-bed ward. Our hospitals here are like hotels compared to other countries. That doesn't lead to better care, but it does lead to more amenities. My point being is that your specialist here in the states is not going to all of a sudden take a pay cut from 600 or 800k a year to 300k a year. We are not going to all of a sudden build European style hospitals that are economically much more efficient, but offer less amenities. People over hear are not going to accept an HMO style system where you can't just up and decide to go to a specialist and get a bunch of testing (which you probably don't need), but rather have to be referred by your primary.

My point in all of this is that health systems in other countries are far more efficient than ours is because they do things completely differently and people here will throw a fit about such a system even if it is better.

Also, most people that are concerned about healthcare costs blame insurers, when they are but a symptom. BCBS is not why anesthesiologists double bill for their nurses, they are not why hospitals routinely bill 400 dollars for a 20 dollar metabolic panel, they are not why plastic surgeons bill 20k for a few minutes of their time to put in a couple of facial stitches after trauma. They are not the reason why there are oncologists that slow down the rate of chemo infusions just to increase their billing. They are not why a whole consulting industry has cropped up in the last 20 years whose whole purpose is to show providers how to maximize billing all the way to the legal line of fraud. All single payer would accomplish is changing who pays those bills when the real problem is the exorbitant size of the bills.

Instead of focusing on pie and the sky crap like single payer which will never happen, why not look the real problems that are driving up costs so much in this country like our fee-for-service model of care?
Click to expand...

I totally agree. Well said. Both the left and the right are simple minded. One side says repeal and replace while the other side says Medicare for all or some other kind of single payer nonsense. They all sound good until you wake up from the dream.
 
Dirt Sands said:
Is the Democratic party a progressive party that believes in change?

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Click to expand...

Democrats may be moving towards a progressive agenda, but thats probably just to court Sanders supporters
 
Moderate Right said:
I don't know of anyone who is denied the right to either health insurance or a higher education. In fact, the poorer have more access to these things than the lower middle class.
Click to expand...
I can tell you're at least a reasonable man. Is it 45 million people that will go uninsured if they do not expand Medicare? They have access to the ER but not much more. The ER is insanely expensive proposition.

As to education, you're right, most of the lower class people do have access to grants or loans. The lower middle class does struggle for access. Community College for all,would handle this problem. Essentially this is a bit more liberal. That's why people of lower class deserve a handout first. Not the richest 5% not the richest 2% and not the richest 1%. The regular guy should be hooked up first before rich people welfare.

Rich people welfare should come last!

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I am all for universal healthcare. I am going to repeat a post I made about this issue though in a different thread.

Bernie's Medicare for all bill is nonsense. If you introduce a bill that fundamentally changes nearly 1/5th of the economy and you don't have a funding mechanism, then you don't have a serious bill. It's just like the "repeal and replace" garbage we heard for years out of Republicans. Their ideas were never serious and it showed this year.

People need to get it through their thick heads, we will not have single payer in this country. The time to have done so was 30 or 40 years ago when our peer nations did it, not today when healthcare is nearly 1/5th of GDP. Yesterday I listened to an interview with Bernie about his bill on NPR. He correctly pointed out we pay for more per-capita in this country for healthcare than any of our peer nations and do not get better results. Yes, that is absolutely true. He then put the blame for it on insurance companies and big pharma.

1. Pharmaceuticals are 10% of healthcare costs. You could give every drug away for free, and healthcare costs would still be far higher than our peer nations. That is not to say that drugs are not expensive and something needs to be done, but its not a panacea.

2. Even if you take out every dollar of profit from private insurers, every bonus they give out, all of it, you will take a family health insurance down from day 21k a year to 19k a year. Still way more than our peer nations.

Point being, our healthcare is more expensive because our providers make more than they would anywhere else. Our hospitals offer more amenities than they do anywhere else. We do more testing, often unnecessarily, than they do any where else. For example, patients here expect a private room. Anywhere else you don't get a private room in a hospital unless you have a communicable disease. Otherwise you are in a multi-bed ward. Our hospitals here are like hotels compared to other countries. That doesn't lead to better care, but it does lead to more amenities. My point being is that your specialist here in the states is not going to all of a sudden take a pay cut from 600 or 800k a year to 300k a year. We are not going to all of a sudden build European style hospitals that are economically much more efficient, but offer less amenities. People over hear are not going to accept an HMO style system where you can't just up and decide to go to a specialist and get a bunch of testing (which you probably don't need), but rather have to be referred by your primary.

My point in all of this is that health systems in other countries are far more efficient than ours is because they do things completely differently and people here will throw a fit about such a system even if it is better.

Also, most people that are concerned about healthcare costs blame insurers, when they are but a symptom. BCBS is not why anesthesiologists double bill for their nurses, they are not why hospitals routinely bill 400 dollars for a 20 dollar metabolic panel, they are not why plastic surgeons bill 20k for a few minutes of their time to put in a couple of facial stitches after trauma. They are not the reason why there are oncologists that slow down the rate of chemo infusions just to increase their billing. They are not why a whole consulting industry has cropped up in the last 20 years whose whole purpose is to show providers how to maximize billing all the way to the legal line of fraud. All single payer would accomplish is changing who pays those bills when the real problem is the exorbitant size of the bills.

Instead of focusing on pie and the sky crap like single payer which will never happen, why not look the real problems that are driving up costs so much in this country like our fee-for-service model of care?
Click to expand...
Let me think about what you said. I will get back to you. I do appreciate your thoughtfulness.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
Dirt Sands said:
I can tell you're at least a reasonable man. Is it 45 million people that will go uninsured if they do not expand Medicare? They have access to the ER but not much more. The ER is insanely expensive proposition.

As to education, you're right, most of the lower class people do have access to grants or loans. The lower middle class does struggle for access. Community College for all,would handle this problem. Essentially this is a bit more liberal. That's why people of lower class deserve a handout first. Not the richest 5% not the richest 2% and not the richest 1%. The regular guy should be hooked up first before rich people welfare.

Rich people welfare should come last!

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Ummmmmmmmmm. Rich people don't get welfare. It is a program for the poor. What do you mean if they do not want to expand Medicare? Who says Medicare should be expanded at all? Who says we should keep the Medicaid expansion Obamacare gave us? Most of these people had access to care before the Obamacare Medicaid expansion. Even if we roll back that expansion these people won't be any worse off than they were just a few short years ago. A few years ago (before Obamacare) I talked with one of the head guys at my local hospital and he told me the ongodly amount of money they had to write off every year for taking care of the poor. And, a lot of money taking care of the poor is made up by high insurance premiums and costs charged to the richer people who do have insurance. People need to quit being jealous of the rich and blaming the rich for their failures in life.
 
Dirt Sands said:
I can tell you're at least a reasonable man. Is it 45 million people that will go uninsured if they do not expand Medicare? They have access to the ER but not much more. The ER is insanely expensive proposition.

As to education, you're right, most of the lower class people do have access to grants or loans. The lower middle class does struggle for access. Community College for all,would handle this problem. Essentially this is a bit more liberal. That's why people of lower class deserve a handout first. Not the richest 5% not the richest 2% and not the richest 1%. The regular guy should be hooked up first before rich people welfare.

Rich people welfare should come last!

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Why should anyone other than those that can't take care of themselves (disabled, elderly) receive a handout at all?

Welfare for rich people?
 
Moderate Right said:
Ummmmmmmmmm. Rich people don't get welfare. It is a program for the poor. What do you mean if they do not want to expand Medicare? Who says Medicare should be expanded at all? Who says we should keep the Medicaid expansion Obamacare gave us? Most of these people had access to care before the Obamacare Medicaid expansion. Even if we roll back that expansion these people won't be any worse off than they were just a few short years ago. A few years ago (before Obamacare) I talked with one of the head guys at my local hospital and he told me the ongodly amount of money they had to write off every year for taking care of the poor. And, a lot of money taking care of the poor is made up by high insurance premiums and costs charged to the richer people who do have insurance. People need to quit being jealous of the rich and blaming the rich for their failures in life.
Click to expand...

Class warfare is great tool for Democrats, preying on the jealousy and greed of others is an easy way to get elected. I can't help but laugh at them when they say Republicans are being "divisive" when the only thing they have is promoting division in class, race, gender, and sexuality.
 
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Dirt Sands said:
Things like Medicare and Social Security are both moderate ideas. Because it may be expensive doesn't make it liberal. As I've said before, in Washington state you have the choice of six health care plans of private insurance companies paid for by Medicare. Obamacare totally works. It is the states that screwed up implementation.

Are you are you saying that all the countries in the west that provide Medical to all as a right are liberal. They are able to provide medical care to everyone at half the cost of the United States.

All Western Nations believe Medical Care is a right except for the United States.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Sanders is big on this, calling Healthcare a right but he's wrong.....again.

Healthcare is not a right. Rights are limits placed on Govt to protect the liberities of the governed. A Govt cant force its citizenry to part with more of their income to provide a right for others.

Sanders is a Socialsist, his definition of rghts are completly at odds with the concept of rights under the US Constitution.

Under Single payer, the individual relinquishes rights and recourse for the good of the collective and there's nothing progressive about it.

Its archaic and regressive and authortarian, and would be a massive step backwards for a Nation that was founded on the truly progressive concepts of individual liberty and a Constitutionally constrained Govt

Under ObamaCare the Fed Govt was given a unprecedented amount of authority to intervene in the healthcare of Americans and they've proven themselves to be inept, corrupt and wasteful and in 8 years have turned a Healthcare system thats been around for decades on its head.

Why anyone would agree to give them another shot at it and give them more authority is beyond me
 
Fenton said:
Sanders is big on this, calling Healthcare a right but he's wrong.....again.

Healthcare is not a right. Rights are limits placed on Govt to protect the liberities of the governed. A Govt cant force its citizenry to part with more of their income to provide a right for others.

Sanders is a Socialsist, his definition of rghts are completly at odds with the concept of rights under the US Constitution.

Under Single payer, the individual relinquishes rights and recourse for the good of the collective and there's nothing progressive about it.

Its archaic and regressive and authortarian, and would be a massive step backwards for a Nation that was founded on the truly progressive concepts of individual liberty and a Constitutionally constrained Govt

Under ObamaCare the Fed Govt was given a unprecedented amount of authority to intervene in the healthcare of Americans and they've proven themselves to be inept, corrupt and wasteful and in 8 years have turned a Healthcare system thats been around for decades on its head.

Why anyone would agree to give them another shot at it and give them more authority is beyond me
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I always did find it funny that the one thing we all agree on is that the government is corrupt and horribly inefficient but yet even with that understanding people want to give them more power and influence over our lives to them. I find it hard to understand the reasoning behind people that both argue that the system is corrupt yet want to broaden its scope.
 
Moderate Right said:
Ummmmmmmmmm. Rich people don't get welfare. It is a program for the poor. What do you mean if they do not want to expand Medicare? Who says Medicare should be expanded at all? Who says we should keep the Medicaid expansion Obamacare gave us? Most of these people had access to care before the Obamacare Medicaid expansion. Even if we roll back that expansion these people won't be any worse off than they were just a few short years ago. A few years ago (before Obamacare) I talked with one of the head guys at my local hospital and he told me the ongodly amount of money they had to write off every year for taking care of the poor. And, a lot of money taking care of the poor is made up by high insurance premiums and costs charged to the richer people who do have insurance. People need to quit being jealous of the rich and blaming the rich for their failures in life.
Click to expand...
Rich people welfare is, 1) corporate welfare, 2) loopholes from your tax accountant, 3) the death tax, 4) a lower individual tax rate for the wealthy, 5) how about a tax free 401k that the middle and lower class and t
can't afford.

In this country we have had income redistribution in favor of the wealthy to the richest people in the country since 1980. This is tearing this country apart.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
In every Western Country Medical Care is a right. Rich people start to shake when poor people start claiming claiming their rights. Once again, you're only for rights that you believe you have. not the ones anybody else should Haven. The more you get the more you want. Little people have been beaten up for a really long time.
Funny how kids are taught to share and not to be greedy but then look what happens when they grow up.

We are seeing greed on a scale that has never been seen before in human history.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I am all for universal healthcare. I am going to repeat a post I made about this issue though in a different thread.

Bernie's Medicare for all bill is nonsense. If you introduce a bill that fundamentally changes nearly 1/5th of the economy and you don't have a funding mechanism, then you don't have a serious bill. It's just like the "repeal and replace" garbage we heard for years out of Republicans. Their ideas were never serious and it showed this year.

People need to get it through their thick heads, we will not have single payer in this country. The time to have done so was 30 or 40 years ago when our peer nations did it, not today when healthcare is nearly 1/5th of GDP. Yesterday I listened to an interview with Bernie about his bill on NPR. He correctly pointed out we pay for more per-capita in this country for healthcare than any of our peer nations and do not get better results. Yes, that is absolutely true. He then put the blame for it on insurance companies and big pharma.

1. Pharmaceuticals are 10% of healthcare costs. You could give every drug away for free, and healthcare costs would still be far higher than our peer nations. That is not to say that drugs are not expensive and something needs to be done, but its not a panacea.

2. Even if you take out every dollar of profit from private insurers, every bonus they give out, all of it, you will take a family health insurance down from day 21k a year to 19k a year. Still way more than our peer nations.

Point being, our healthcare is more expensive because our providers make more than they would anywhere else. Our hospitals offer more amenities than they do anywhere else. We do more testing, often unnecessarily, than they do any where else. For example, patients here expect a private room. Anywhere else you don't get a private room in a hospital unless you have a communicable disease. Otherwise you are in a multi-bed ward. Our hospitals here are like hotels compared to other countries. That doesn't lead to better care, but it does lead to more amenities. My point being is that your specialist here in the states is not going to all of a sudden take a pay cut from 600 or 800k a year to 300k a year. We are not going to all of a sudden build European style hospitals that are economically much more efficient, but offer less amenities. People over hear are not going to accept an HMO style system where you can't just up and decide to go to a specialist and get a bunch of testing (which you probably don't need), but rather have to be referred by your primary.

My point in all of this is that health systems in other countries are far more efficient than ours is because they do things completely differently and people here will throw a fit about such a system even if it is better.

Also, most people that are concerned about healthcare costs blame insurers, when they are but a symptom. BCBS is not why anesthesiologists double bill for their nurses, they are not why hospitals routinely bill 400 dollars for a 20 dollar metabolic panel, they are not why plastic surgeons bill 20k for a few minutes of their time to put in a couple of facial stitches after trauma. They are not the reason why there are oncologists that slow down the rate of chemo infusions just to increase their billing. They are not why a whole consulting industry has cropped up in the last 20 years whose whole purpose is to show providers how to maximize billing all the way to the legal line of fraud. All single payer would accomplish is changing who pays those bills when the real problem is the exorbitant size of the bills.

Instead of focusing on pie and the sky crap like single payer which will never happen, why not look the real problems that are driving up costs so much in this country like our fee-for-service model of care?
Click to expand...
Simply changing how the money flows is not a solution in itself, but it is part of one.
 
Dirt Sands said:
Rich people welfare is, 1) corporate welfare, 2) loopholes from your tax accountant, 3) the death tax, 4) a lower individual tax rate for the wealthy, 5) how about a tax free 401k that the middle and lower class and t
can't afford.

In this country we have had income redistribution in favor of the wealthy to the richest people in the country since 1980. This is tearing this country apart.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

What on Earth have you been smoking? There is no such thing as corporate welfare. Everyone has loopholes on their taxes. Many downright cheat, both the rich and the poor. The death tax? What on Earth is that? Please show where the rich have a lower tax rate than anyone else. All of the income tax tables I look at show those who earn more have a higher rate, while 47% of Americans have an effective tax rate of 0%. Anyone who works just about anywhere has 401K's so what the hell are you talking about there? You are nothing but a purebread liberal.
 
Moderate Right said:
What on Earth have you been smoking? There is no such thing as corporate welfare. Everyone has loopholes on their taxes. Many downright cheat, both the rich and the poor. The death tax? What on Earth is that? Please show where the rich have a lower tax rate than anyone else. All of the income tax tables I look at show those who earn more have a higher rate, while 47% of Americans have an effective tax rate of 0%. Anyone who works just about anywhere has 401K's so what the hell are you talking about there? You are nothing but a purebread liberal.
Click to expand...
If employed people have to use support programs (welfare) to stay afloat, then those support programs are actually welfare for corporations, so that they don't have to pay their employees more.

Not to mention how we've bailed out car manufacturers and banks.

Free market my ass.
 
The Mark said:
If employed people have to use support programs (welfare) to stay afloat, then those support programs are actually welfare for corporations, so that they don't have to pay their employees more.

Not to mention how we've bailed out car manufacturers and banks.

Free market my ass.
Click to expand...

Those people don't HAVE to use social programs, they have chosen to live irresponsibly so that they are unable to live within their means. They did it to themselves. Companies pay what they pay. If these people can't afford to live on what their employer pays, then they'd better learn some job skills and get a better job, shouldn't they?

And I entirely oppose baling out anyone. Welfare for failing should never be acceptable whether you're an individual or a company.
 
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