Is There Any Objective Good Or Bad?

In another thread people were arguing that good and bad are subjective terms that have little to no objectivity.

That is what led to this poll and topic.

I think there are things that are objectively bad. Like senseless killing, rape, natural disasters, and child abuse. I also think some things are objectively good. Like eating when hungry, being warm when it is cold, having senses to see, smell, and hear, etc.

If good and bad are subjective, there should be a group who truly believes that the things I listed as good and bad are not good examples and should not be listed in either category at all.

So, can you think of something that is objectively good or objectively bad? What is it?

Pozessed said:

In another thread people were arguing that good and bad are subjective terms that have little to no objectivity.

That is what led to this poll and topic.

I think there are things that are objectively bad. Like senseless killing, rape, natural disasters, and child abuse. I also think some things are objectively good. Like eating when hungry, being warm when it is cold, having senses to see, smell, and hear, etc.

If good and bad are subjective, there should be a group who truly believes that the things I listed as good and bad are not good examples and should not be listed in either category at all.

So, can you think of something that is objectively good or objectively bad? What is it?

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Subjective.

Rape is considered bad by people. It's not considered bad by your cat.

No such thing as completely objective good or bad. They're all framed in the human mind, and the evolutionary biases that come with that.

Nilly said:

Subjective.

Rape is considered bad by people. It's not considered bad by your cat.

No such thing as completely objective good or bad. They're all framed in the human mind, and the evolutionary biases that come with that.

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There is no objective morality unless lower intelligence life forms acknowledge it? What a terrible standard for objectivity.

Pozessed said:

I think there are things that are objectively bad. Like senseless killing, rape, natural disasters, and child abuse. I also think some things are objectively good. Like eating when hungry, being warm when it is cold, having senses to see, smell, and hear, etc.

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Due to our nature, that which sustains life is the good and that which ends it or causes suffering ought to be regarded as evil.

Then there is universally preferable behavior, that which if everyone engaged in things would work out.

Nilly said:

Subjective.

Rape is considered bad by people. It's not considered bad by your cat.

No such thing as completely objective good or bad. They're all framed in the human mind, and the evolutionary biases that come with that.

Click to expand...

Nilly:

We live in a relativistic universe where both the phenomenon being observed and the state of the observer determines what is observed. All human experience is therefore subjective because it is based on our limited capacities to perceive and understand what is unfolding around us. Thus all human evaluation and judgement, which are slaved to our limited capabilities, are subjective too. That does not mean that we don't or shouldn't make evaluations or judgements about things around us, but only that we must recognize our fallibility in rendering judgements, in order to have the presence of mind and the humility to reverse incorrect judgements when we are found to be in error.

Cancer or an earthquake may seem bad but the treatment of, or recovery from, these tragedies adds to our GDP and contributes wealth to our society which trickles down to many. Love or peace may seem like good principles but love can lead to envy, jealousy and strife while a strict adherence to peace can enable violent cruelty and harm to go unopposed and unchecked.

Is there an objective good? Empathy perhaps? Is there an objective bad? Blind hate or unfettered greed perhaps? The answers depend on who you are and what you perceive about the world around you. I don't have the answers, any more than you do.

One final note. You used both "bad" and "evil" in your poll choices and while there is plenty of intersection between the two terms, they do not have the same definitions or connotations. That may complicate clarity in this discussion.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

You need to define good/bad.
if you are refering to morality then no, they are subjective

Evilroddy said:

Nilly:

We live in a relativistic universe where both the phenomenon being observed and the state of the observer determines what is observed. All human experience is therefore subjective because it is based on our limited capacities to perceive and understand what is unfolding around us. Thus all human evaluation and judgement, which are slaved to our limited capabilities, are subjective too. That does not mean that we don't or shouldn't make evaluations or judgements about things around us but only that we must recognize our fallibility in rendering judgements in order to have thepresence of mind and the humility to reverse incorrect judgements when we are found to be in error.

Cancer or an earthquake may seem bad but the treatment of, or recovery from, these tragedies adds to our GDP and contributes wealth to our society which trickles down to many. Love or peace may seem like good principles but love can lead to strife and strict adherence to peace can enable violent cruelty and harm to go unopposed and unchecked.

Is there an objective good? Empathy perhaps? Is there an objective bad? Blind hate or unfettered greed perhaps? The answers depend on who you are and what you perceive about the world around you. I don't have the answers, any more than you do.

One final note. You used both "bad" and "evil" in your poll choices and while there is plenty of intersection between the two terms, they do not have the same definitions or connotations. That may complicate clarity in this discussion.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Thank you for your thoughtful response. I did not mean to use evil in my poll, though it is there and I can't do anything about it. I meant to use bad in place of evil for the first option.

Quag said:

You need to define good/bad.
if you are refering to morality then no, they are subjective

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Yes, I am referencing morality.
I think morality is subjective, until laws/rules are made and enforced.

Pozessed said:

In another thread people were arguing that good and bad are subjective terms that have little to no objectivity.

That is what led to this poll and topic.

I think there are things that are objectively bad. Like senseless killing, rape, natural disasters, and child abuse. I also think some things are objectively good. Like eating when hungry, being warm when it is cold, having senses to see, smell, and hear, etc.

If good and bad are subjective, there should be a group who truly believes that the things I listed as good and bad are not good examples and should not be listed in either category at all.

So, can you think of something that is objectively good or objectively bad? What is it?

Click to expand...

There are groups that think it is good to kill "the others", pillage their realms and rape their women. That goes back a long way and this behavior has been seen in monkeys.

Pozessed said:

Yes, I am referencing morality.
I think morality is subjective, until laws/rules are made and enforced.

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Laws and rules are also subjective.

Nilly said:

Subjective.

Rape is considered bad by people. It's not considered bad by your cat.

No such thing as completely objective good or bad. They're all framed in the human mind, and the evolutionary biases that come with that.

Click to expand...

Hmm... are you asserting that you have experience raping cats?

I am sure that my cat would show you the error in your logic if you tried to rape it. It would objectively be a bad idea to try that.

Pozessed said:

In another thread people were arguing that good and bad are subjective terms that have little to no objectivity.

That is what led to this poll and topic.

I think there are things that are objectively bad. Like senseless killing, rape, natural disasters, and child abuse. I also think some things are objectively good. Like eating when hungry, being warm when it is cold, having senses to see, smell, and hear, etc.

If good and bad are subjective, there should be a group who truly believes that the things I listed as good and bad are not good examples and should not be listed in either category at all.

So, can you think of something that is objectively good or objectively bad? What is it?

Click to expand...

There are. Muslim rape gangs clearly think rape is good. Sociopaths can believe killing is good. Child molesters certainly think child abuse is good, at least for them. There is no objectively good or bad, just widespread human opinion based on enlightened self interest.

"enlightened self interest."

or

Self rationalization?

Pozessed said:

Yes, I am referencing morality.
I think morality is subjective, until laws/rules are made and enforced.

Click to expand...

Nope, whether something is enforced by law (or not) has no bearing - slavery being enforced by law did not make it objectively good.

Spartacus FPV said:

There is no objective morality unless lower intelligence life forms acknowledge it? What a terrible standard for objectivity.



Due to our nature, that which sustains life is the good and that which ends it or causes suffering ought to be regarded as evil.

Then there is universally preferable behavior, that which if everyone engaged in things would work out.

Click to expand...

What is your standard for objectivity? I was more using a cat as 'other life form' but it could mean alien or something. In Orson Scott Card's 'Speaker for the Dead', there exist a race of aliens that consider killing their own kind a great honor (for it allows them to regrow as a fathertree). Yes it's fictional, but it indicates how in a society different from us, things that we could consider immoral or bad are not necessarily so for others. We're rooted in evolutionary tendencies.

Just because something is good 'to our nature' doesn't make it objectively good (and I agree these things exist - it is invariably good for humans to co-exist, it is invariably good to not engage in cannibalism). These are, however, subjective to the human condition, even if all humans can agree on it.

Cephus said:

There are. Muslim rape gangs clearly think rape is good. Sociopaths can believe killing is good. Child molesters certainly think child abuse is good, at least for them. There is no objectively good or bad, just widespread human opinion based on enlightened self interest.

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Im not sure that they they think rape is good. I don't think they would condone to the rape of themselves or their own children. I think they just ignore the fact that they know it is bad.

Spartacus FPV said:

There is no objective morality unless lower intelligence life forms acknowledge it? What a terrible standard for objectivity.



Due to our nature, that which sustains life is the good and that which ends it or causes suffering ought to be regarded as evil.

Then there is universally preferable behavior, that which if everyone engaged in things would work out.

Click to expand...

Where does suicide fall on your scale. If someone decided their quality of life is not high enough to be worth living, is the act of suicide good or bad?

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There is absolutely objective good and bad...though there are people who will deny it til the cows come home...until they cannot deny it any longer...

Pozessed said:

In another thread people were arguing that good and bad are subjective terms that have little to no objectivity.

That is what led to this poll and topic.

I think there are things that are objectively bad. Like senseless killing, rape, natural disasters, and child abuse. I also think some things are objectively good. Like eating when hungry, being warm when it is cold, having senses to see, smell, and hear, etc.

If good and bad are subjective, there should be a group who truly believes that the things I listed as good and bad are not good examples and should not be listed in either category at all.

So, can you think of something that is objectively good or objectively bad? What is it?

Click to expand...

anonymous polls are clearly objectively bad on this board

Elvira said:

There is absolutely objective good and bad...though there are people who will deny it til the cows come home...until they cannot deny it any longer...

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Do you have some examples? I'm honestly struggling.

I got all the way down to "life is good" and "death is bad" but as others have mentioned suicide complicates even that one.

WillyPete said:

Do you have some examples? I'm honestly struggling.

I got all the way down to "life is good" and "death is bad" but as others have mentioned suicide complicates even that one.

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Simply put...God's laws...suicide only complicates things when mental illness is involved...otherwise we humans have no right to take a life, even our own...

Elvira said:

Simply put...God's laws...suicide only complicates things when mental illness is involved...otherwise we humans have no right to take a life, even our own...

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Ah. To my eyes, what you have there is a moral framework you've decided is objective. If it were actually objective, it would be easier to demonstrate.

You could be right, but I'm not making decisions based on that until the Rapture (though please don't tell them I said that, as I intend to sneak in on R day.)

Morals are factually subjective
There for good and bad are factually subjective

As a society things may feel or be determined by law, majority opinion to be good or bad but they are all still just subjective.

Elvira said:

There is absolutely objective good and bad...though there are people who will deny it til the cows come home...until they cannot deny it any longer...

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Of course people will deny a statment that is factually untrue and cant be proven or support with one fact. Lots of people are funny like that, they like facts and proof. Your statment has none.

SSGT Bags said:

"enlightened self interest."

or

Self rationalization?

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Enlightened self interest is the basis for all morality, even yours.

Elvira said:

There is absolutely objective good and bad...though there are people who will deny it til the cows come home...until they cannot deny it any longer...

Click to expand...

Oh look, more empty religious claims and implied threats. :roll:

Pozessed said:

If good and bad are subjective, there should be a group who truly believes that the things I listed as good and bad are not good examples and should not be listed in either category at all.

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Actually that's a false statement. Lets say that I kill everyone that thinks that the death penalty is good. Does that then mean that it's objectively evil because everyone now believes it is?

If you want to show something is objectively true you can't base it off of anyone's opinion or belief. That's essentially the opposite of objective, even if literally everyone agrees.

And besides, even if you can't find a "group" that thinks that senseless killing is bad, I can find you a serial killer that disagrees, therefor bring it back to being subjective.

The only way I personally think of showing that something is an objectively good or bad thing is if you create a metric, such as human flourishing and suffering, and then objectively compare an actions consequences in terms of human pain, suffering and human happiness and flourishing. At that point you'd be able to say that senseless killing is bad because it causes pain and suffering and that is our metric. The same as if we make distance our metric, a foot is objectively longer than an inch. Without a distinct and well thought out metric, nothing can really be objective.