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Which of these are true?

Which of these statements are true?

  • All Nazis are evil

    Votes: 27 81.8%

  • Most Nazis are evil

    Votes: 3 9.1%

  • A small handful of Nazis are evil

    Votes: 3 9.1%

  • All Klan members are evil

    Votes: 23 69.7%

  • Most Klan members are evil

    Votes: 4 12.1%

  • A small handful of Klan members are evil

    Votes: 3 9.1%

  • All antifas are evil

    Votes: 5 15.2%

  • Most antifas are evil

    Votes: 6 18.2%

  • a few antifas are evil

    Votes: 16 48.5%

  • no antifas are evil

    Votes: 3 9.1%
  • Total voters
    33
MrWonka

MrWonka

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Be patient as the poll might take some time to generate, but I'd like to see which of these statements you'd consider true.


Since I could only make the poll so big, I'd also like to here how you feel about....

Democratic Socialists
Communists
Capitalists
Trump Supporters
Muslims
Atheists
Liberals
Republicans
 
Last edited:
Isn't the entire board basically this question writ large? Seems superfluous.
 
Define terms first:

Evil a :* morally reprehensible :* sinful, wicked b :* arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct a person of evil reputation. morally reprehensible.
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evil

Evil, in a general context is the absence or opposite of that which is described as being good. Often, evil denotes profound immorality. In certain religious contexts, evil has been described as a supernatural force. Definitions of evil vary, as does the analysis of its motives. However, elements that are commonly associated with evil involve unbalanced behavior involving anger, revenge, fear, hatred, psychological trauma, expediency, selfishness, ignorance, or neglect.
Click to expand...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

I hesitate to label anyone entirely evil. It is usually a personal moral judgement.

To outsiders, they are evil.

To themselves? Not so much.

I believe some members of each listed group are mislead, others are confused, and still other's support identity politics (in the case of "Nazis" perhaps a white power movement in opposition to other race-based nationalist movements) and reject the negative's associated with the history of their group.

Then there are those who are "morally evil."

I'd pick other, or "some." Mostly because I honestly believe most people who have extremist views fall in the confused or mislead categories.
 
MrWonka said:
Be patient as the poll might take some time to generate, but I'd like to see which of these statements you'd consider true.


Since I could only make the poll so big, I'd also like to here how you feel about....

Democratic Socialists
Communists
Capitalists
Trump Supporters
Muslims
Atheists
Liberals
Republicans
Click to expand...

I... really hate the term "evil" when applied to humans, rather than comic book characters.

Look. I don't think anyone is born being the sort of person who turns into a Nazi. I think the reasons for why this sort of stuff happens are just more complex than that.

And I also know there are people who used to be part of things like this, and later reform and turn into people who work against radicalization. Radicalization, at its heart, is predatory. And it focuses on people who are vulnerable.

We can hate Nazism all day long, and lord knows I sure as **** do. We can stand in front of the Jews in synagogues when they show up to intimidate them, and lord knows I sure as **** would. I am one of those people who thinks the equivocation of Antifa with ****ing Nazis is so insane that I can't even wrap my head around how anyone could justify that stance.

But I am not going to participate in dehumanizing anyone.
 
MrWonka said:
Be patient as the poll might take some time to generate, but I'd like to see which of these statements you'd consider true.


Since I could only make the poll so big, I'd also like to here how you feel about....

Democratic Socialists
Communists
Capitalists
Trump Supporters
Muslims
Atheists
Liberals
Republicans
Click to expand...

Only Nazis are evil.
 
ModerateGOP said:
Only Nazis are evil.
Click to expand...



commiue.jpg
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
I... really hate the term "evil" when applied to humans, rather than comic book characters.
Click to expand...
Why? If their actions are virtually identical why do you need a difference?

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Look. I don't think anyone is born being the sort of person who turns into a Nazi. I think the reasons for why this sort of stuff happens are just more complex than that.
Click to expand...
In comic books the evil bad guys often have origin stories that tell give you an idea as to what drove them to it.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
And I also know there are people who used to be part of things like this, and later reform and turn into people who work against radicalization. Radicalization, at its heart, is predatory. And it focuses on people who are vulnerable.
Click to expand...
So we should tried talking to the Nazis more instead of just storming the beaches of Normandy or what?

We can hate Nazism all day long, and lord knows I sure as **** do. We can stand in front of the Jews in synagogues when they show up to intimidate them, and lord knows I sure as **** would. I am one of those people who thinks the equivocation of Antifa with ****ing Nazism is so insane that I can't even wrap my head around how anyone could justify that stance.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
But I am not going to participate in dehumanizing anyone.
Click to expand...

If you chose not to dehumanize Nazis or Klan members will that stop them from dehumanizing you?

If a Nazi is trying to kill you, then it's (okay/not-okay) to kill the Nazi.
If a Nazi is trying to dehumanize you, then it's (okay/not-okay) to dehumanize the Nazi.
If a Nazi is being intolerant of you, then it's (okay/not-okay) to be intolerant of the Nazi.
 
ModerateGOP said:
Nazis have a stated evil ideology; communism doesn't.
Click to expand...

You have to admit, the distinction gets pretty blurry when you soak it in the blood of a hundred million people. The (apparent) end result of an ideology strikes me as every bit as important as the stated goals of the ideology.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Really? Even the KKK gets a pass? What's the defining difference between the two in your mind?
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I think Nazis are more evil than the KKK but not by much. It's just that they were less organized and didn't have an entire nation to themselves. Fitting that they are allies though
 
MrWonka said:
Why? If their actions are virtually identical why do you need a difference?

In comic books the evil bad guys often have origin stories that tell give you an idea as to what drove them to it.
Click to expand...

Because "evil" is a statement of their total being. And I just see too much complexity in what causes terrible deeds to assign "evil" to any person.

...And a lot of those "evil bad guys" with back stories aren't actually evil and challenge us to think about their origins, don't they.

So we should tried talking to the Nazis more instead of just storming the beaches of Normandy or what?
Click to expand...

I'm not a pacifist, and if defense is the only option they leave us, then I'm quite happy to defend.

But if it's still an option to talk, yes. That's how we reform people. And that's also how we PREVENT their beliefs from spreading. Who is vulnerable? Why are they vulnerable? How do we get to them first and make sure mainstream society is available to them?

If you chose not to dehumanize Nazis or Klan members will that stop them from dehumanizing you?

If a Nazi is trying to kill you, then it's (okay/not-okay) to kill the Nazi.
If a Nazi is trying to dehumanize you, then it's (okay/not-okay) to dehumanize the Nazi.
If a Nazi is being intolerant of you, then it's (okay/not-okay) to be intolerant of the Nazi.
Click to expand...

Nope. Doesn't mean I have to become just as bad.

Respectively, ok, not ok, and ok.

Why is killing in self-defence ok? Because no one has a right to take your life.

Why is not tolerating Nazism ok? Because it leads to the killing of other people.

Why is the dehumanization not ok? Well, let me ask you this...

How do you think they turned into Nazis in the first place?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Because "evil" is a statement of their total being. And I just see too much complexity in what causes terrible deeds to assign "evil" to any person.
Click to expand...
Then what's the point of the word? It seems like your criteria for evil are so stringent that they negate any actual person from fitting that definition. Maybe that's an indication you should change it?

SmokeAndMirrors said:
...And a lot of those "evil bad guys" with back stories aren't actually evil and challenge us to think about their origins, don't they.
Click to expand...
Not really.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Why is the dehumanization not ok? Well, let me ask you this...

How do you think they turned into Nazis in the first place?
Click to expand...

They learned to see others with genetic differences as inferior human beings to themselves. Obviously we know that genetic differences such as race, gender, sexual orientation don't make people inferior human beings which is what makes them wrong, but what about massive ignorance combined with visceral hate? That's not really genetic, it's learned so if they allow themselves to be consumed by it can we not judge them as inferior human beings for that reason?
 
MrWonka said:
Be patient as the poll might take some time to generate, but I'd like to see which of these statements you'd consider true.


Since I could only make the poll so big, I'd also like to here how you feel about....

Democratic Socialists
Communists
Capitalists
Trump Supporters
Muslims
Atheists
Liberals
Republicans
Click to expand...

A further problem is what defines a Nazi? Because there was no choice if you wanted to advance in life, many people joined the Nazi Party in Germany or the Communist Party in Communist countries but did not actually hold the ideology of that party.

And if someone was raised as a child in an ideology, and completely indoctrinated, are they evil? Is someone evil when they didn't know what it meant to be good? And if an indoctrinated child grows up and now sees things differently, are they still evil? Were they ever evil?
 
MrWonka said:
Then what's the point of the word? It seems like your criteria for evil are so stringent that they negate any actual person from fitting that definition. Maybe that's an indication you should change it?
Click to expand...

No. People dehumanizing each other just happens to be a common thing. It never ends well.

They learned to see others with genetic differences as inferior human beings to themselves. Obviously we know that genetic differences such as race, gender, sexual orientation don't make people inferior human beings which is what makes them wrong, but what about massive ignorance combined with visceral hate? That's not really genetic, it's learned so if they allow themselves to be consumed by it can we not judge them as inferior human beings for that reason?
Click to expand...

Ok. Then explain Chinese political purges. Explain jihadists. Explain the Crusades. Explain every atrocity ever.

You could give me a different granular explanation for each of these, but you'd be missing the point. The point is that they started with people vulnerable to brainwashing (I'm sure it's just a coincidence most of these things started during political and economic turmoil, right?), who were then taught to dehumanize others.

I've learned from history, and I'm not participating in a path that goes nowhere but to atrocity.
 
pinqy said:
And if someone was raised as a child in an ideology, and completely indoctrinated, are they evil? Is someone evil when they didn't know what it meant to be good? And if an indoctrinated child grows up and now sees things differently, are they still evil? Were they ever evil?
Click to expand...

I would say that there must come a point in adulthood. Let's say by the age of 25(yes I realize that is somewhat arbitrary) where you can't really continue to blame your parents for your belief system. I also don't see why an evil person must remain evil for their entire life in order to be considered evil. I don't see why an evil person couldn't do some evil things or believe some evil things, and then eventually realize they were wrong and become rehabilitated. To me that doesn't change the reality that they were at one point quite evil.

One addition I will make is that stupidity and ignorance are often a person's first line of defense even when they knew what they were doing was evil at the time. Playing dumb works all too well because it generates sympathy. It gives others a false sense of superiority which they're eager to accept to feed their own ego.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
No. People dehumanizing each other just happens to be a common thing. It never ends well.
Click to expand...
Why does calling someone evil dehumanize them? Can't someone be both evil and a human? Seems like plenty of humans throughout history have done plenty of evil things. That does not make them non-human.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Ok. Then explain Chinese political purges. Explain jihadists. Explain the Crusades. Explain every atrocity ever.

You could give me a different granular explanation for each of these, but you'd be missing the point. The point is that they started with people vulnerable to brainwashing (I'm sure it's just a coincidence most of these things started during political and economic turmoil, right?), who were then taught to dehumanize others.
Click to expand...
Why does inaccurate dehumanization make accurate dehumanization a bad thing?

What about all the U.S. Soldiers who were trained to see their enemies as evil, and lessor humans to make it easier for them to kill them in WWII? If it made them more willing to storm the beaches of Normandy to rid Europe of Nazi scum was it okay to run propaganda to convince people that was a war that needed fighting?
 
Jesse Booth said:
You have to admit, the distinction gets pretty blurry when you soak it in the blood of a hundred million people. The (apparent) end result of an ideology strikes me as every bit as important as the stated goals of the ideology.
Click to expand...

Governments claiming all kinds of ideologies have killed people. I mean, millions of native Americans were killed by the government - do we blame that on democracy, and, prior to that, the monarchy? The killings that took place in the Soviet Union had nothing to do with the precepts of communism...really the only thing it can be blamed on is the megalomaniac personality of Stalin, who ordered the vast majority of the murders and set the template for how to deal with political opposition in the USSR and all subsequent communist governments following that model - something that puts him in good company with Hitler, who of course was a right wing fascist.

I'm not an advocate of communism by any stretch, but I do think it's important to get the facts straight. The fact that the right is now trying to dilute the disgustingness of the Nazis by repeating this latest talking point is the kind of scare tactics Mussolini used to rise to power, albeit with a much more significant, more violent communist party to spring board off of. Comparing Antifa to the Marxist movement of the first half of the 20th century is silly.
 
OlNate said:
Governments claiming all kinds of ideologies have killed people. I mean, millions of native Americans were killed by the government - do we blame that on democracy, and, prior to that, the monarchy? The killings that took place in the Soviet Union had nothing to do with the precepts of communism...really the only thing it can be blamed on is the megalomaniac personality of Stalin, who ordered the vast majority of the murders and set the template for how to deal with political opposition in the USSR and all subsequent communist governments following that model - something that puts him in good company with Hitler, who of course was a right wing fascist.

I'm not an advocate of communism by any stretch, but I do think it's important to get the facts straight. The fact that the right is now trying to dilute the disgustingness of the Nazis by repeating this latest talking point is the kind of scare tactics Mussolini used to rise to power, albeit with a much more significant, more violent communist party to spring board off of. Comparing Antifa to the Marxist movement of the first half of the 20th century is silly.
Click to expand...

...Oh yeah, we were discussing Antifa before that. Huh. I guess I saw the word communism, and got distracted. At this point, I might as well keep going.

Regardless, no matter how you look at it, communism always seems to end in disaster. I can't help but view the people who persist in following such an ideology with disdain. At least with the Nazis, there's some grounds for a "it helps me" argument. Communism has yet to be implemented once without devastating whoever set it up. It goes above and beyond the usual shtick of people who follow a miserable failure of an ideology.
 
Jesse Booth said:
...Oh yeah, we were discussing Antifa before that. Huh. I guess I saw the word communism, and got distracted. At this point, I might as well keep going.

Regardless, no matter how you look at it, communism always seems to end in disaster. I can't help but view the people who persist in following such an ideology with disdain. At least with the Nazis, there's some grounds for a "it helps me" argument. Communism has yet to be implemented once without devastating whoever set it up. It goes above and beyond the usual shtick of people who follow a miserable failure of an ideology.
Click to expand...

Well, if the benchmark is "ends in disaster", I'm not sure the Nazis have that much better of a track record. Communism certainly outlasted it...

lol...again, not a endorser of communism, but...hehe...
 
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