Systemic Racism

Caine said:

So you are saying that disparity = racism. No bother looking into why there is a disparity.... That is assinine.

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Ummm....Let me pull out one part of my statement you quoted, because you must have missed it..."for the very same crimes". There's no reason for disparity for the same crime.

If it is limited to one, or a few liberal college campuses, it isn't systemic.

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1. It isn't on just a few colleges.

2. It's systemic in that particular college.

Fishking said:

Ummm....Let me pull out one part of my statement you quoted, because you must have missed it..."for the very same crimes". There's no reason for disparity for the same crime.

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So you believe there is nothing more than Crime/Race taken into account during sentencing? Have you ever been to more than one criminal sentencing in an actual court? There are things like "Prior Record Level"... "Aggravating Factors".... and "Mitigating Factors" that are also taken into consideration during sentencing. Sounds like a whole treasure trove of data to go through doesn't it? Each case is individual, it goes far beyond Crime/Race (which the latter isn't even taken into consideration).

dina2 said:

Or would you rather have it sent privately to you?

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dina2 said:

Removable mind already got his butt kicked. Just look at the page at my profile.

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What do you mean? Could you just link me to the particular post you're referencing?

Caine said:

So you believe there is nothing more than Crime/Race taken into account during sentencing? Have you ever been to more than one criminal sentencing in an actual court? There are things like "Prior Record Level"... "Aggravating Factors".... and "Mitigating Factors" that are also taken into consideration during sentencing. Sounds like a whole treasure trove of data to go through doesn't it? Each case is individual, it goes far beyond Crime/Race (which the latter isn't even taken into consideration).

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If you have a link to show those statistics I'd look at it. So far as things I've read there is a sentencing disparity. Interesting statistic on disparity in sentencing...the disparity between men and women is 6x greater than between blacks and whites.

Fishking said:

If you have a link to show those statistics I'd look at it. So far as things I've read there is a sentencing disparity. Interesting statistic on disparity in sentencing...the disparity between men and women is 6x greater than between blacks and whites.

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Those aren't statistics.... those are ACTUAL REAL LIVE factors that are involved in the sentencing of a person found guilty of crime.
I do not deny that there is a disparity. I only deny that racism is the cause of said disparity.

Caine said:

Those aren't statistics.... those are ACTUAL REAL LIVE factors that are involved in the sentencing of a person found guilty of crime.
I do not deny that there is a disparity. I only deny that racism is the cause of said disparity.

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It's a variable to consider in statistical analysis, so yes, they are part of the statistics being considered. Do you have them or where your comments merely hypothetical?

Fishking said:

It's a variable to consider in statistical analysis, so yes, they are part of the statistics being considered. Do you have them or where your comments merely hypothetical?

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In all the studies that I have seen that people use to validate "systemic racism" on the basis of sentencing disparity I have never seen any mention of any study taking these factors into consideration.

Thus, I cannot agree that a disparity = racism.

Caine said:

In all the studies that I have seen that people use to validate "systemic racism" on the basis of sentencing disparity I have never seen any mention of any study taking these factors into consideration.

Thus, I cannot agree that a disparity = racism.

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I think systemic racism exists in some areas, districts, etc.

But the main problem in some ways is the...leftover effects of previous systemic racism.

For example, during and after the Great Depression and WWII, various house building and purchasing programs, organized by the Federal Government, discriminated against minorities.
The result being, many white people have ancestors with houses, which are capital, and many minorities don't - thus they start from a lower economic point, and this is compounded over the decades, which means that many black people which might have been on an even economic footing with the majority at this point are not, because of discrimination decades (or even 3/4 of a century) ago.

This is obviously not universal, and has been lessening over time, but it's part of what "systemic racism" means.


Edit: Not to mention that the "War on Drugs" was partially conceived of as a way to target minorities, and while that may no longer be it's goal, the stereotypes are still seemingly applied, at times.

Bodhisattva said:

That does not mean that white people, just because they are the majority, DO run a system of racism against black people and minorities...

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Please name a single solitary institution of significant power in this country that is controlled by a majority of black people.

Bodhisattva said:

The argument that the United States is a society of systemic racism is retarded. The counter to that argument is that black people can be racist and those arging systemic racism counter back that blacks can't do that because they do not have the majority power. They just claim that white people and the system that they set up is racist by design. Really nice... just accuse 200 million people of being racist.

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You haven't made a counter argument here. Basically all you said was that it's not nice to call people racist. Whether it's nice or not does not change how accurate the statement is.

We are only one or two generations removed from a time when blacks were required to sit in the back of the bus, use different bathrooms, and different water fountains.

Bodhisattva said:

What is ironic is that this is also a racist argument... that white people are racist just because they are white.

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I am a white man. I do not believe that being white makes you racist. Everyone can be racist including black people. The question is who has the power to actually cause serious harm as a result of that racism. Here in America there white people are the only group that can. Sure an individual black guy might commit an individual hate crime, and that's terrible, but so could a random white guy. The the problem is that with an almost exclusively white police force and judiciary you can count on swift justice against the black guy whether he's guilty or not, but white guy who does the same thing may get off scot-free.

Bodhisattva said:

Soo, is the USA a society of systemic racism and if you think yes or no... WHY?

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Again... I ask you can you name a single solitary institution of any significant power that is controlled by a majority of black people.

The police, the military, politicians, religious organizations, business owners, media companies, the judiciary, schools...... You name it white people control it. It is ridiculously naive to conclude that a country controlled almost exclusively by white people would not favor white people.

MrWonka said:

Please name a single solitary institution of significant power in this country that is controlled by a majority of black people.

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I just said that white people are in majority power. That does not mean that white people, just because they are the majority, DO run a system of racism against black people and minorities...

You haven't made a counter argument here. Basically all you said was that it's not nice to call people racist. Whether it's nice or not does not change how accurate the statement is.

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I made a point. Accusing white people of still maintaining a system of racism is stupid.

We are only one or two generations removed from a time when blacks were required to sit in the back of the bus, use different bathrooms, and different water fountains.

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So what? How does that prove that white people are running a racist system of government and society?

I am a white man. I do not believe that being white makes you racist. Everyone can be racist including black people. The question is who has the power to actually cause serious harm as a result of that racism. Here in America there white people are the only group that can. Sure an individual black guy might commit an individual hate crime, and that's terrible, but so could a random white guy. The the problem is that with an almost exclusively white police force and judiciary you can count on swift justice against the black guy whether he's guilty or not, but white guy who does the same thing may get off scot-free.

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No. This "who has power" thing is subjective. If I am walking down the street and a bunch of black guys are racist and kill me it matters not what the majority white people are doing.

Again... I ask you can you name a single solitary institution of any significant power that is controlled by a majority of black people.

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Irrelevant to my point...

The police, the military, politicians, religious organizations, business owners, media companies, the judiciary, schools...... You name it white people control it. It is ridiculously naive to conclude that a country controlled almost exclusively by white people would not favor white people.

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White people do not control it... Americans control it. If you think that white people controlling it means that black people are being oppressed that means that you think that the white people are actively racists... as in a conspiracy group specifically designed to oppress black people.

Prove it.

The only institutional racism in America today is against white and asian people with affirmative action in colleges and jobs.

All other factors that contribute to the inequity in performance/success between races in America is not directly due to racism. They are culturally self inflicted, probably due to racism in the past.

Things like, not reading to your children, rampant single motherhood, child abuse, cultural attitude against authority figures, and cultural attitude on illegal and immoral behavior....are the MAIN reasons.... it is NOT racism....

There is an argument that the state of the culture in poor black communities is because of past racism... and I would say, yes, that is at least partially true.... though there are people of other cultures who have also face discrimination and racism, but did not have these cultural defects in significant portions of their population.

The culture is the problem... And this deviant culture is not unique to black people, it's in segments of the white and Asian populations too, but in much smaller proportions. Those portions also do not get the public support, popularity and excuses deviant black cultures do.

No Explanation of your definition of SYSTEMIC RACISM, no vote!