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Systemic Racism

Soo, is the USA a society of systemic racism and if you think yes or no... WHY?

  • Total voters
    48
The Mark said:
I don't think that's systemic racism.

My understanding of systemic racism is that now or in the past, policies and actions by government and others have resulted in a situation wherein if you're white, you are more likely to start from a higher economic starting point. I'm talking decades or even century old decisions whose results are still felt, if less so now.

In some areas, minorities are automatically considered more dangerous by police and civilians.
Etc.

That kind of thing means the entire system (thus systemic) has minorities in a state of disadvantage.

Not that the system is currently racist, although that IS probably the case, in some areas.
Especially when police consider minorities more likely to be criminals, by default, and treat them differently than they do white people. Which DOES happen, in some areas of the country.
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Yes. Some people and some areas are absolutely racist... the United States also has privilege, as does every other country and place. Here it generally favours white people... but that is due to economic reasons, not racist ones. The USA is set up so that anybody can succeed. When I hear of evidence that white people get less time in prison than black people I don't care. They are both criminals. They crossed the line to crime. The people I care about are not criminals. Every non-criminal can go to school, get good grades and if become a doctor, lawyer, cop, astronaut or President of the United States. That clearly is evidence that the USA is not a racist system.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Let me get this straight... you say I have an uneducated view with my preconceived opinion and that you are not here to educate me. You also state that I should not use Huffington Post as a source even thought that is the first link that you provided me with when you told me to pick ANY link to back your argument. https://www.google.ca/search?q=raci...&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=FGKTWaWeKMSMjwT9hJeoDA You also linked me to an opinion piece AND an article from England. That is the best one... to back up your argument that the United States Justice System is racist you use an article written from ENGLAND.

That about sum it up?
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I provided a number of links. As HP is left wing, I would not use it.
I would use independent studies.
Anyhow, perhaps later i will reply, but having been there, seen the closed minds of many from this topic to denial of systemic racism in the US, to where the DP is skewed against African Americans. As mentioned, rather busy and will look at a reply, if I do later in the week.
 
The Mark said:
I don't think that's systemic racism.

My understanding of systemic racism is that now or in the past, policies and actions by government and others have resulted in a situation wherein if you're white, you are more likely to start from a higher economic starting point. I'm talking decades or even century old decisions whose results are still felt, if less so now.

In some areas, minorities are automatically considered more dangerous by police and civilians.
Etc.

That kind of thing means the entire system (thus systemic) has minorities in a state of disadvantage.

Not that the system is currently racist, although that IS probably the case, in some areas.
Especially when police consider minorities more likely to be criminals, by default, and treat them differently than they do white people. Which DOES happen, in some areas of the country.
Click to expand...

I think you have it wrong in that police are considering minorities more likely to be criminals by default.

However, if you stated that police consider certain people to be more dangerous and criminals based upon the neighborhood in which they live in, I would totally agree.

In the city I worked in, I worked the mostly affluent area of town, we had two dumps within our division, a trailer park and a housing project on opposite edges of the division. The housing project was mostly black people but we didn't get alot of calls from there to be honest (it was also a really small project). The trailer park area was mostly white and it was considered a "Do not go there with less than two units" type area and we frequently had calls there about this or that.

People from both of those areas were more likely to be considered dangerous and/or criminals and were treated with more suspicion because of it.

Meanwhile blacks and whites from the country club were not treated with such suspicion.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Yes. Some people and some areas are absolutely racist... the United States also has privilege, as does every other country and place. Here it generally favours white people... but that is due to economic reasons, not racist ones. The USA is set up so that anybody can succeed. When I hear of evidence that white people get less time in prison than black people I don't care. They are both criminals. They crossed the line to crime. The people I care about are not criminals. Every non-criminal can go to school, get good grades and if become a doctor, lawyer, cop, astronaut or President of the United States. That clearly is evidence that the USA is not a racist system.
Click to expand...
Yet that brings up another point which is connected to this - there are many people imprisoned for crimes that should not be crimes (I'm talking drug possession and especially use, especially weed and/or derivatives of it.) - and for that matter, I heard somewhere that 90+% of cases are decided with a plea deal, and a bunch of those who plea do so because they can't afford bail. Need to research that last more.

But the point is, our justice system has serious problems right now. Privately-run prisons should not exist, ever. The motive to be profitable based on number of people imprisoned is directly opposed to the idea of imprisoning only those who are guilty.
Police misconduct is either not being addressed, or has the appearance of not being addressed, which is almost equally as bad from the perspective of maintaining public trust in those we're supposed to be trusting to protect us.
People should not be given bail they cannot afford, unless there is some significant flight risk or potential for them causing harm. Hundreds of people are in prison for literally years, without having been to trial, because they can't pay bail - and then someone comes up to them with a plea deal and says they can leave right now if they plead guilty to a lesser crime - I don't want to think about what it feels like to plead guilty to something you didn't do just to see your family and be home.

And thus we probably have thousands of "criminals" out there who didn't do a damn thing criminal, who have trouble getting jobs because our system punishes people even if they try to rebuild their life.

And the fact that minorities are targeted more than white people by police means that they're more greatly effected by such bull**** as I just described.

:rantoff:
 
Caine said:
I think you have it wrong in that police are considering minorities more likely to be criminals by default.

However, if you stated that police consider certain people to be more dangerous and criminals based upon the neighborhood in which they live in, I would totally agree.

In the city I worked in, I worked the mostly affluent area of town, we had two dumps within our division, a trailer park and a housing project on opposite edges of the division. The housing project was mostly black people but we didn't get alot of calls from there to be honest (it was also a really small project). The trailer park area was mostly white and it was considered a "Do not go there with less than two units" type area and we frequently had calls there about this or that.

People from both of those areas were more likely to be considered dangerous and/or criminals and were treated with more suspicion because of it.

Meanwhile blacks and whites from the country club were not treated with such suspicion.
Click to expand...
It's not the case in all cities and areas, but there are some areas where police are more suspicious and/or afraid of people who are minorities.

Even if there is no reason whatsoever to think so about them.

There have been multiple stories about such things in the past years, and in some cases it came out that the police literally targeted minorities, if I recall correctly. Would have to do some research for details.
 
The Mark said:
It's not the case in all cities and areas, but there are some areas where police are more suspicious and/or afraid of people who are minorities.

Even if there is no reason whatsoever to think so about them.

There have been multiple stories about such things in the past years, and in some cases it came out that the police literally targeted minorities, if I recall correctly. Would have to do some research for details.
Click to expand...

True, however, are they suspicious of them just because they are minorities, or because the area in which they work consists of alot of CRIMINAL minorities?
 
The Mark said:
Yet that brings up another point which is connected to this - there are many people imprisoned for crimes that should not be crimes (I'm talking drug possession and especially use, especially weed and/or derivatives of it.) - and for that matter, I heard somewhere that 90+% of cases are decided with a plea deal, and a bunch of those who plea do so because they can't afford bail. Need to research that last more.
Click to expand...
Agreed

But the point is, our justice system has serious problems right now. Privately-run prisons should not exist, ever. The motive to be profitable based on number of people imprisoned is directly opposed to the idea of imprisoning only those who are guilty.
Click to expand...
Agreed
Police misconduct is either not being addressed, or has the appearance of not being addressed, which is almost equally as bad from the perspective of maintaining public trust in those we're supposed to be trusting to protect us.
Click to expand...

Agreed
People should not be given bail they cannot afford, unless there is some significant flight risk or potential for them causing harm. Hundreds of people are in prison for literally years, without having been to trial, because they can't pay bail - and then someone comes up to them with a plea deal and says they can leave right now if they plead guilty to a lesser crime - I don't want to think about what it feels like to plead guilty to something you didn't do just to see your family and be home.
Click to expand...

Agreed
 
Caine said:
True, however, are they suspicious of them just because they are minorities, or because the area in which they work consists of alot of CRIMINAL minorities?
Click to expand...
In some cases the former, in some the latter, in some both.

But just because a lot of criminal minorities live/were caught in an area, it doesn't mean you can suspect any minorities in that area without a good reason.
That's like a self-fulfilling prophecy or something.
Because you can probably find something minimally illegal on almost anyone, especially if you're willing to plant evidence like I've now seen video evidence some police officers are willing to do.

It seems to me that if you go into a situation expecting to find a crime, you're more likely to.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Yes. Some people and some areas are absolutely racist... the United States also has privilege, as does every other country and place. Here it generally favours white people... but that is due to economic reasons, not racist ones. The USA is set up so that anybody can succeed. When I hear of evidence that white people get less time in prison than black people I don't care. They are both criminals. They crossed the line to crime. The people I care about are not criminals. Every non-criminal can go to school, get good grades and if become a doctor, lawyer, cop, astronaut or President of the United States. That clearly is evidence that the USA is not a racist system.
Click to expand...

Well you probably don't care because you are white
 
vegas giants said:
Well you probably don't care because you are white
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I don't care about white criminals either... care to address the argument or logic instead of the person... which is pathetic
 
vegas giants said:
Well you probably don't care because you are white
Click to expand...

iu
 
vegas giants said:
Or it could just be accurate. LOL
Click to expand...

That is the epitome of where identity politics leads.

Can't win the argument, state the other person can never "understand" the "real" facts because of the color of their skin, that you must automatically be correct and then claim yourself the victor of a debate.
 
Caine said:
That is the epitome of where identity politics leads.

Can't win the argument, state the other person can never "understand" the "real" facts because of the color of their skin, that you must automatically be correct and then claim yourself the victor of a debate.
Click to expand...

Or it could be accurate. Lets not rule out that. LOL
 
vegas giants said:
Or it could be accurate. Lets not rule out that. LOL
Click to expand...

Its not accurate...

"White Privilege" is a cudgel, a club used to beat a debate opponent over the head when you run out of ways to debate them in order to claim victory in a debate.

When you cannot counter the facts, pull out the race card and claim victory.
 
Caine said:
Its not accurate...

"White Privilege" is a cudgel, a club used to beat a debate opponent over the head when you run out of ways to debate them in order to claim victory in a debate.

When you cannot counter the facts, pull out the race card and claim victory.
Click to expand...
White privilege is real.
It may have little effect on you personally, but generally speaking, people who are considered "white" are by default better off in our country.
Depending on area, the degree fluctuates.

The key thing is that, at least for myself, I don't think we need to eliminate the positives that white people have to make things equal (unless those positives are inherently negatives towards others).
What we need to do is make the default the same for everyone.
 
The Mark said:
White privilege is real.
It may have little effect on you personally, but generally speaking, people who are considered "white" are by default better off in our country.
Depending on area, the degree fluctuates.

The key thing is that, at least for myself, I don't think we need to eliminate the positives that white people have to make things equal (unless those positives are inherently negatives towards others).
What we need to do is make the default the same for everyone.
Click to expand...

This is where I disagree.

Far too often people are led to believe that a disparity in any statistical basis broken down by race = inequity by default. Since that has yet to be proven to me (often times people attempt to "prove" this by citing even more disparity).

I will fully acknowledge that there are racial disparities among a wide variety of statistical subjects. I will not agree with the assumption that the disparity proves inequity.


As for your last point, so what you are saying is that you do not agree with what Adam Corrolla went through then?
 
Mariano1 said:
It is a crime to a degree. You disagree?
Click to expand...

"Thought" isn't a crime, no matter how hateful, vile, or insane - unless a thought is manifested into a physical behavior that violates the law.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Systemic Racism

We can all agree that black people, as a group, can not hold power over white people due to the fact that they are outnumbered 71% to 13%.

That does not mean that white people, just because they are the majority, DO run a system of racism against black people and minorities...

The argument that the United States is a society of systemic racism is retarded. The counter to that argument is that black people can be racist and those arging systemic racism counter back that blacks can't do that because they do not have the majority power. They just claim that white people and the system that they set up is racist by design. Really nice... just accuse 200 million people of being racist.

What is ironic is that this is also a racist argument... that white people are racist just because they are white.

Soo, is the USA a society of systemic racism and if you think yes or no... WHY?
Click to expand...

Yes, to some degree. I don't think it's nearly so bad as what people make it out to be but it's still there and it's not insignificant. The first girl to integrate into school in the South, that needed the national guard to be there to get it to happen, is only like 64.

You don't go from that to nothing. We have improved a lot, we continue to improve, we still have more to do.
 
Caine said:
This is where I disagree.

Far too often people are led to believe that a disparity in any statistical basis broken down by race = inequity by default. Since that has yet to be proven to me (often times people attempt to "prove" this by citing even more disparity).

I will fully acknowledge that there are racial disparities among a wide variety of statistical subjects. I will not agree with the assumption that the disparity proves inequity.


As for your last point, so what you are saying is that you do not agree with what Adam Corrolla went through then?
Click to expand...


That's an interesting question.
From the sounds of his story, it sounds like the fire department in that area has a policy of hiring people that tries to make the fire department diverse.
I tend to dislike hiring based on race/ethnicity, but at the same time I can see why it might be needed to change what might have been decades or even centuries of hiring based on race/ethnicity - in the other direction.
And I dislike it because I have an idealistic view of what is "fair" - something along the lines of merit-only hiring.

Yet...I can kinda see the point, in specific situations.

It's trying to reach that "fair" place, by attempting to push back against decades of pushing in the other direction.
 
Mariano1 said:
That doesn't matter at all. You disagree?
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, you're saying that regarding the question of whether distrusting/suspecting minorities because they're from a specific area is acceptable, saying that it is unjust to do so is unimportant and should not be a consideration?
 
Mariano1 said:
It doesn't matter if it is a crime or not. It still is made of the things that make a crime negative. You have lost in a discussion with me real fast. You are about to go on my page I'll send you later. Anyone else thinks can beat me?
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Thought is not a crime.

What am I thinking now about your post right now?

Beat you at what? Out thinking you? :lol:

Oh, and while you're thinking, reread my previous post to you.

"Thought" isn't a crime, no matter how hateful, vile, or insane - unless a thought is manifested into a physical behavior that violates the law.
Click to expand...
 
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