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Should White Nationals and worse be referred to in relation to "Right" and "Trump"?

Should White Nationalists be routinely referred to as "right", "trumpian", etc?

  • Total voters
    65
ModerateGOP said:
I really don't think the racists care if they are called racists.
Click to expand...



But a lot of people are being called racist, or Nazi, or alt-right-as-code-for-racist, who are not racist.


This does not help things.
 
ModerateGOP said:
I really don't think the racists care if they are called racists.
Click to expand...

Whether people are racists or not, politics functions by debating people's talking points, not their identities. If someone is talking racist crap, you point out why their racist crap is wrong, you don't do the lazy thing by shouting them down as a racist.

We need our racists in full view, in technicolor, saying their non-sensical garbage. That's how we call them out. But trying to shut them up by name-calling them only turns them into subversives. Then eventually we get what happened in Virginia... someone mowing down protestors in a car. The media plays into it 100% by not discussing the grievances. This is 100% how Trump won the election. The media called him every name in the book but didn't analyze how the establishment ignored the working class -- then the working class voted him in. Even NOW the media is still trying to paint Trump as a far right racist, while completely ignoring his power base!

That's something people like you will never understand.

It's getting to the point now that 9 times out of 10, when a discussion is happening, people won't debate the points anymore, they will just name-call in an attempt to put you in a camp. And once you're in that camp, the whole discussion is negated.

This is the #1 threat to our political system right now. Every level of the polity is doing it: the White House, Congress, the Media, the Universities, the Middle Class.

We are sinking into a lazy, arm-chair polity that doesn't want to spend time using critical thinking anymore. It's far simpler to just label someone as something and then completely ignore what they have to say.

And people wonder why anger is reaching violent proportions?

You can only call people liberal commies or right wing fascists for so long before they start responding with their fists. That's what happens when their grievances and perceived injustices never get aired properly. We are witnessing first hand what the beginning stages of the collapse of Democracy looks like. The government isn't doing it -- WE are doing it.

What the U.S. desperately needs right now is true justice on every single level, and for the polemic demagogues to shut their god damn mouths.

What's it going to take? Another Timothy McVeigh before people truly stop and ask, "Why? Why is this happening? What's turning people into such violent monsters? What did we do to deserve this?" Because that's where we are headed. We are a powerful, intelligent people deep down, and when we put our genius toward violence we accomplish true terrors.

It's going to take people ceasing their incessant desire to draw simple conclusions and look at broader problems. Our country is in BIG TROUBLE right now. Trump is not the reason, he is the SYMPTOM.
 
Last edited:
Goshin said:
Dear and fluffy Colonel Sanders, you've got to be kidding.
Click to expand...

You made the claim a bunch of people are getting called racists nazis. I'd like to see it because I don't. And a bunch of people =/= President Trump.
 
ModerateGOP said:
You made the claim a bunch of people are getting called racists nazis. I'd like to see it because I don't. And a bunch of people =/= President Trump.
Click to expand...


Bud, I got nothing more to say to ya if you think everyone getting called racist these days is one.
 
Northern Light said:
Whether people are racists or not, politics functions by debating people's talking points, not their identities. If someone is talking racist crap, you point out why their racist crap is wrong, you don't do the lazy thing by shouting them down as a racist.

We need our racists in full view, in technicolor, saying their non-sensical garbage. That's how we call them out. But trying to shut them up by name-calling them only turns them into subversives. Then eventually we get what happened in Virginia... someone mowing down protestors in a car. The media plays into it 100% by not discussing the grievances. This is 100% how Trump won the election. The media called him every name in the book but didn't analyze how the establishment ignored the working class -- then the working class voted him in. Even NOW the media is still trying to paint Trump as a far right racist, while completely ignoring his power base!

That's something people like you will never understand.

It's getting to the point now that 9 times out of 10, when a discussion is happening, people won't debate the points anymore, they will just name-call in an attempt to put you in a camp. And once you're in that camp, the whole discussion is negated.

This is the #1 threat to our political system right now. Every level of the polity is doing it: the White House, Congress, the Media, the Universities, the Middle Class.

We are sinking into a lazy, arm-chair polity that doesn't want to spend time using critical thinking anymore. It's far simpler to just label someone as something and then completely ignore what they have to say.

And people wonder why anger is reaching violent proportions?

You can only call people liberal commies or right wing fascists for so long before they start responding with their fists. That's what happens when their grievances and perceived injustices never get aired properly. We are witnessing first hand what the beginning stages of the collapse of Democracy looks like. The government isn't doing it -- WE are doing it.

What the U.S. desperately needs right now is true justice on every single level, and for the polemic demagogues to shut their god damn mouths.

What's it going to take? Another Timothy McVeigh before people truly stop and ask, "Why? Why is this happening? What's turning people into such violent monsters? What did we do to deserve this?" Because that's where we are headed. We are a powerful, intelligent people deep down, and when we put our genius toward violence we accomplish true terrors.

It's going to take people ceasing their incessant desire to draw simple conclusions and look at broader problems. Our country is in BIG TROUBLE right now. Trump is not the reason, he is the SYMPTOM.
Click to expand...



Damn, that was well-said.

QFT b/c I can't like it twice.
 
ModerateGOP said:
You made the claim a bunch of people are getting called racists nazis. I'd like to see it because I don't. And a bunch of people =/= President Trump.
Click to expand...

Exhibit A.
 
Goshin said:
Bud, I got nothing more to say to ya if you think everyone getting called racist these days is one.
Click to expand...

I see twist my words because you can't prove what you claimed before.

I ask again, Which people are getting called racist nazis?
 
Northern Light said:
Whether people are racists or not, politics functions by debating people's talking points, not their identities. If someone is talking racist crap, you point out why their racist crap is wrong, you don't do the lazy thing by shouting them down as a racist.

We need our racists in full view, in technicolor, saying their non-sensical garbage. That's how we call them out. But trying to shut them up by name-calling them only turns them into subversives. Then eventually we get what happened in Virginia... someone mowing down protestors in a car. The media plays into it 100% by not discussing the grievances. This is 100% how Trump won the election. The media called him every name in the book but didn't analyze how the establishment ignored the working class -- then the working class voted him in. Even NOW the media is still trying to paint Trump as a far right racist, while completely ignoring his power base!

That's something people like you will never understand.

It's getting to the point now that 9 times out of 10, when a discussion is happening, people won't debate the points anymore, they will just name-call in an attempt to put you in a camp. And once you're in that camp, the whole discussion is negated.

This is the #1 threat to our political system right now. Every level of the polity is doing it: the White House, Congress, the Media, the Universities, the Middle Class.

We are sinking into a lazy, arm-chair polity that doesn't want to spend time using critical thinking anymore. It's far simpler to just label someone as something and then completely ignore what they have to say.

And people wonder why anger is reaching violent proportions?

You can only call people liberal commies or right wing fascists for so long before they start responding with their fists. That's what happens when their grievances and perceived injustices never get aired properly. We are witnessing first hand what the beginning stages of the collapse of Democracy looks like. The government isn't doing it -- WE are doing it.

What the U.S. desperately needs right now is true justice on every single level, and for the polemic demagogues to shut their god damn mouths.

What's it going to take? Another Timothy McVeigh before people truly stop and ask, "Why? Why is this happening? What's turning people into such violent monsters? What did we do to deserve this?" Because that's where we are headed. We are a powerful, intelligent people deep down, and when we put our genius toward violence we accomplish true terrors.

It's going to take people ceasing their incessant desire to draw simple conclusions and look at broader problems. Our country is in BIG TROUBLE right now. Trump is not the reason, he is the SYMPTOM.
Click to expand...

What's it going to take? How about another Rwandan genocide?
 
Zyphlin said:
So something has been kicking around my head last night and I figured it could make an interesting thread. Especially to see the mindset and mentality of both those on the left and the right.
Click to expand...

Two different questions, to my mind.

Firstly, are they "Trumpian"? Well, they've been endorsing him since day one, and he has never disowned them. While I doubt they are Trump's "base" necessarily, I think at this point it's dangerous to ignore that he has a history of ignoring their behavior and accepting their support without complaint.

But no other Republican politician has done that. Which is reason #3057349573 that Trump is not actually a Republican.

I for one have more respect for Republicans than that, and I wish more of them had more respect for THEMSELVES than that. Being socially traditional or fiscally conservative has nothing to do with being a racial fascist.

That is why it is so ****ing frustrating for me to watch some of them defend it anyway, because they just defend anything associated with a "Republican" even if it makes no sense.

I don't see white nationalists as part of the right, no. Their platform has nothing to do with American conservatism.

And I don't understand why some people on the right are adopting them anyway.
 
ModerateGOP said:
I see twist my words because you can't prove what you claimed before.

I ask again, Which people are getting called racist nazis?
Click to expand...

Dude, you made some claims too about being called a communist sympathizer and I don't doubt you, but are you seriously suggesting that people who don't deserve to be called racist are anyway?
 
I'm ok with using "right wing" as long as it is preceded by "radical". A radical right winger drove a car into those people. A radical left winger opened fire on Republican Congressmen on a baseball field. Radical Islam is the source of much terror in the modern day world.

I don't think we should be tying them to politicians they support because that is unfair to the politician. Politicians can't help what wackos support them. I didn't like the Right referring to the baseball field shooter as a "Bernie Supporter" over and over so I am not going to refer to this guy as a "Trump Supporter". While those labels are factually true, the intent of their use is to demonize the politician they happened to vote for. That isn't a habit we want to get into because I guarantee you every single politician has had wackos vote for them.
 
X Factor said:
Dude, you made some claims too about being called a communist sympathizer and I don't doubt you, but are you seriously suggesting that people who don't deserve to be called racist are anyway?
Click to expand...

I am only wondering what people you are talking about. If you are talking about the people in charlottesville than yes, I would assume most of them who were at the rally are neonazis or at least sympathizers, until many many many speak out and tell me that they aren't. That's what I am left to assume based on the rhetoric that was on display and the flags that they were carrying.

Why is this so difficult?
 
ModerateGOP said:
I am only wondering what people you are talking about. If you are talking about the people in charlottesville than yes, I would assume most of them who were at the rally are neonazis or at least sympathizers, until many many many speak out and tell me that they aren't. That's what I am left to assume based on the rhetoric that was on display and the flags that they were carrying.

Why is this so difficult?
Click to expand...

Because we're not referring only to that crowd but I'm starting to get the feeling that you will always support charges of racism regardless who it's directed at because it sure is a lot easier and more popular than to actually challenge it.
 
X Factor said:
Because we're not referring only to that crowd but I'm starting to get the feeling that you will always support charges of racism regardless who it's directed at because it sure is a lot easier and more popular than to actually challenge it.
Click to expand...

Then who else are you referring to? This is not clear to me. Please elaborate. What groups specifically are being targeted as racists?
 
Zyphlin said:
So something has been kicking around my head last night and I figured it could make an interesting thread. Especially to see the mindset and mentality of both those on the left and the right.

First, let me prephase this question with a general statement. By and large, most people that are not part of said movement view the idea of White Nationalism, and the more extreme off shoots such as full on white supremacy or white separatism, as a abhorrent ideology on the whole. This is the case right or left, Republican or Democrat.

So, the question is this:

When referring to White Nationalists and their ilk, should we be referring to them as "Right Wing", as "Trumps Base", as "Conservative", etc even with caveat styled adjectives like "extreme" or "radical"? Or should we simply be referencing them as "White Nationalists", "White Supremacists", etc?

Now, context as to why I'm asking this and why I think this is going to be so interesting to watch peoples reactions.

Islamic Terrorism / Radical Islam

George Bush famously said the following, oft repeated as justifications for Obama's stance on the matter / as a means of attacking Trumps stance on it:

"This great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil"

Hillary Clinton, when faced with the idea of saying radical islam, preferred "radical jihadist" because the other "sounds like we are declaring war against a religion."

You have President Obama, explaining why he would not use such terms:

"What I have been careful about when I describe these issues is to make sure that we do not lump these murderers into the billion Muslims that exist around the world, including in this country, who are peaceful, who are responsible"

Now there are some who have roundly applauded such notion, both around in general and on this site. There are plenty of examples of threads here at DP with members explaining how this mentality is correct, because we need the help of the Islamic world to combat these terrorist threats and to continually connect the terrorism to Islam will ostracize us from those countries by making them feel as if they are the "enemy".

There were also people across both spectrum who roundly criticized President Obama and others for such mentality (including our current POTUS). Suggesting that reasonably minded people can understand the difference between the specific condemnations and the broader community. That if you can not reasonably and realistically discuss, call out, and name something that you can't honestly combat it. And that failing to do so is essentially an attempt to protect it in some fashion.

So I would ask, how does this relate to the White Nationalist = "Trumps Base" or "Radical Right Wing" type statements? The problem of this mentality and mindset is not something that's going to be solved by just "the left" or Democrats alone. It's not going to be countered just by one side being arguing against it. By constantly tying it to "the right", are people ostracizing those on the Right by giving them the impression that they are just one in the same with these asshole? Or is it simply accurately and realistically pointing out what the "enemy" is, and doing such is not just reasonable but necessary in order to properly combat such a thing?
Click to expand...

Normally I would say 'no', but here I say "No, but...". Because they seem to have really latched onto them, and he seems to be reluctant to name them in his condemnation... condemnation that he seems to not even want to do until pressure builds. So I voted 'other'.
 
Zyphlin said:
So something has been kicking around my head last night and I figured it could make an interesting thread. Especially to see the mindset and mentality of both those on the left and the right.

First, let me prephase this question with a general statement. By and large, most people that are not part of said movement view the idea of White Nationalism, and the more extreme off shoots such as full on white supremacy or white separatism, as a abhorrent ideology on the whole. This is the case right or left, Republican or Democrat.

So, the question is this:

When referring to White Nationalists and their ilk, should we be referring to them as "Right Wing", as "Trumps Base", as "Conservative", etc even with caveat styled adjectives like "extreme" or "radical"? Or should we simply be referencing them as "White Nationalists", "White Supremacists", etc?

Now, context as to why I'm asking this and why I think this is going to be so interesting to watch peoples reactions.

Islamic Terrorism / Radical Islam

George Bush famously said the following, oft repeated as justifications for Obama's stance on the matter / as a means of attacking Trumps stance on it:

"This great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil"

Hillary Clinton, when faced with the idea of saying radical islam, preferred "radical jihadist" because the other "sounds like we are declaring war against a religion."

You have President Obama, explaining why he would not use such terms:

"What I have been careful about when I describe these issues is to make sure that we do not lump these murderers into the billion Muslims that exist around the world, including in this country, who are peaceful, who are responsible"

Now there are some who have roundly applauded such notion, both around in general and on this site. There are plenty of examples of threads here at DP with members explaining how this mentality is correct, because we need the help of the Islamic world to combat these terrorist threats and to continually connect the terrorism to Islam will ostracize us from those countries by making them feel as if they are the "enemy".

There were also people across both spectrum who roundly criticized President Obama and others for such mentality (including our current POTUS). Suggesting that reasonably minded people can understand the difference between the specific condemnations and the broader community. That if you can not reasonably and realistically discuss, call out, and name something that you can't honestly combat it. And that failing to do so is essentially an attempt to protect it in some fashion.

So I would ask, how does this relate to the White Nationalist = "Trumps Base" or "Radical Right Wing" type statements? The problem of this mentality and mindset is not something that's going to be solved by just "the left" or Democrats alone. It's not going to be countered just by one side being arguing against it. By constantly tying it to "the right", are people ostracizing those on the Right by giving them the impression that they are just one in the same with these asshole? Or is it simply accurately and realistically pointing out what the "enemy" is, and doing such is not just reasonable but necessary in order to properly combat such a thing?
Click to expand...

We label various types of governing as Left Right. Where do these groups fit in?
Do they support a right wing govt, that for the mist part goes without saying.
But I complexity agree with right and farther to the right, not seeing themselves as part of such a despicable group.
 
Zyphlin said:
So something has been kicking around my head last night and I figured it could make an interesting thread. Especially to see the mindset and mentality of both those on the left and the right.

First, let me prephase this question with a general statement. By and large, most people that are not part of said movement view the idea of White Nationalism, and the more extreme off shoots such as full on white supremacy or white separatism, as a abhorrent ideology on the whole. This is the case right or left, Republican or Democrat.

So, the question is this:

When referring to White Nationalists and their ilk, should we be referring to them as "Right Wing", as "Trumps Base", as "Conservative", etc even with caveat styled adjectives like "extreme" or "radical"? Or should we simply be referencing them as "White Nationalists", "White Supremacists", etc?

Now, context as to why I'm asking this and why I think this is going to be so interesting to watch peoples reactions.

Islamic Terrorism / Radical Islam

George Bush famously said the following, oft repeated as justifications for Obama's stance on the matter / as a means of attacking Trumps stance on it:

"This great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil"

Hillary Clinton, when faced with the idea of saying radical islam, preferred "radical jihadist" because the other "sounds like we are declaring war against a religion."

You have President Obama, explaining why he would not use such terms:

"What I have been careful about when I describe these issues is to make sure that we do not lump these murderers into the billion Muslims that exist around the world, including in this country, who are peaceful, who are responsible"

Now there are some who have roundly applauded such notion, both around in general and on this site. There are plenty of examples of threads here at DP with members explaining how this mentality is correct, because we need the help of the Islamic world to combat these terrorist threats and to continually connect the terrorism to Islam will ostracize us from those countries by making them feel as if they are the "enemy".

There were also people across both spectrum who roundly criticized President Obama and others for such mentality (including our current POTUS). Suggesting that reasonably minded people can understand the difference between the specific condemnations and the broader community. That if you can not reasonably and realistically discuss, call out, and name something that you can't honestly combat it. And that failing to do so is essentially an attempt to protect it in some fashion.

So I would ask, how does this relate to the White Nationalist = "Trumps Base" or "Radical Right Wing" type statements? The problem of this mentality and mindset is not something that's going to be solved by just "the left" or Democrats alone. It's not going to be countered just by one side being arguing against it. By constantly tying it to "the right", are people ostracizing those on the Right by giving them the impression that they are just one in the same with these asshole? Or is it simply accurately and realistically pointing out what the "enemy" is, and doing such is not just reasonable but necessary in order to properly combat such a thing?
Click to expand...

Not anymore than we should be referring to pot smoking jobless hippy wannabe's as "Hilary's Base" or the "Left Wing" or as "Liberals"
 
Many of them refer to themselves as alt-right, and StormFront has been supporting Trump and his comments since the rioting yesterday.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Not anymore than we should be referring to pot smoking jobless hippy wannabe's as "Hilary's Base" or the "Left Wing" or as "Liberals"
Click to expand...

As someone who will be a pot smoking jobless hippie in a couple years when I retire, and who dislikes Hillary, I appreciate that. :)
 
Zyphlin said:
So something has been kicking around my head last night and I figured it could make an interesting thread. Especially to see the mindset and mentality of both those on the left and the right.

First, let me prephase this question with a general statement. By and large, most people that are not part of said movement view the idea of White Nationalism, and the more extreme off shoots such as full on white supremacy or white separatism, as a abhorrent ideology on the whole. This is the case right or left, Republican or Democrat.

So, the question is this:

When referring to White Nationalists and their ilk, should we be referring to them as "Right Wing", as "Trumps Base", as "Conservative", etc even with caveat styled adjectives like "extreme" or "radical"? Or should we simply be referencing them as "White Nationalists", "White Supremacists", etc?

Now, context as to why I'm asking this and why I think this is going to be so interesting to watch peoples reactions.

Islamic Terrorism / Radical Islam

George Bush famously said the following, oft repeated as justifications for Obama's stance on the matter / as a means of attacking Trumps stance on it:

"This great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil"

Hillary Clinton, when faced with the idea of saying radical islam, preferred "radical jihadist" because the other "sounds like we are declaring war against a religion."

You have President Obama, explaining why he would not use such terms:

"What I have been careful about when I describe these issues is to make sure that we do not lump these murderers into the billion Muslims that exist around the world, including in this country, who are peaceful, who are responsible"

Now there are some who have roundly applauded such notion, both around in general and on this site. There are plenty of examples of threads here at DP with members explaining how this mentality is correct, because we need the help of the Islamic world to combat these terrorist threats and to continually connect the terrorism to Islam will ostracize us from those countries by making them feel as if they are the "enemy".

There were also people across both spectrum who roundly criticized President Obama and others for such mentality (including our current POTUS). Suggesting that reasonably minded people can understand the difference between the specific condemnations and the broader community. That if you can not reasonably and realistically discuss, call out, and name something that you can't honestly combat it. And that failing to do so is essentially an attempt to protect it in some fashion.

So I would ask, how does this relate to the White Nationalist = "Trumps Base" or "Radical Right Wing" type statements? The problem of this mentality and mindset is not something that's going to be solved by just "the left" or Democrats alone. It's not going to be countered just by one side being arguing against it. By constantly tying it to "the right", are people ostracizing those on the Right by giving them the impression that they are just one in the same with these asshole? Or is it simply accurately and realistically pointing out what the "enemy" is, and doing such is not just reasonable but necessary in order to properly combat such a thing?
Click to expand...

I think all races, religions, political movements, ideologies, what have you all have their radicals. There will always be a need by some to think their race is superior, their religion is the only true religion to include some atheist trying to do away with religion altogether. Normally it is a very small percentage of these groups. Although that small percentage can grow into many.

I have no problem with calling or identify the radicals of Islam and calling them as such. There's no doubt in my mind white supremacist are the radicals of the white race. I do have an easier time understanding the radicals of a religion, ideology than one of race. After all, we humans all began as one race to populate the four corners of the earth and become many races due to environment, evolution and other reasons. We can either trace our beginnings back to Adam and Eve if one is religious or to Lucy, the earliest human. Today, due to numerous reasons, inter racial marriages, travel, wars, migration, plus many others, we are in the process of going back to one race, the human race. It is inevitable.
 
Helix said:
only a small fraction of conservatives are white supremacists. however, Trump should absolutely be associated with them due to his rhetoric and intentional lack of distancing. he wants to keep this faction under his tent in order to make it a bit wider. the irony is that Trump isn't a conservative, though conservatives defend him due to lack of other options and a phenomenon that i think of a "tribal blindness."
Click to expand...

It would help if Trump didn't have three sr. WH staff members who are self-proclaimed "alt-right" (Richard Spencer's created the term to cover white nationalist, neo-Nazi, fascist-type far right extremists) in Bannon, Miller and Gorka. Now when this gaggle of various "alt-right" extremists gather in Charlotteville to preach their odious philosophies in public, resulting in violence and death, the very fact that Trump couldn't bring himself to specify this group and separate it from right-wing conservative republicans should be pretty danged alarming to, well, everyone.

You're right, Trump isn't a republican... or a democrat. He's an independent whose belief varies based upon issues, then chooses the belief that gives him an advantage (in my opinion).
 
Obvious, what do you think the alt-right is?
The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely defined group of people with far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of white nationalism,
Click to expand...

Looks like duck, quacks like a duck. Let's call it a duke!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right

Oh, and associated with Trump? Again, obviously.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bannon
Bannon was a founding member of the board of Breitbart News,[59] an online far-right news, opinion and commentary website which, according to Philip Elliott and Zeke J. Miller of Time, has "pushed racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-Semitic material into the vein of the alternative right".[17]

Steve Bannon : currently serving as the White House Chief Strategist (a newly created position) in the Trump administration
 
Goshin said:
But a lot of people are being called racist, or Nazi, or alt-right-as-code-for-racist, who are not racist.


This does not help things.
Click to expand...

No it does not. If I've repeated this once here, I've repeated it 100 times. It applies to all groups of people and can be related to the situation being discussed here.


Imagine always being blamed for things that you have absolutely no control over. Imagine always being asked to apologise for these things. Imagine being hated whether or not you do apologise anyway because it will never be enough. Imagine being considered no different to terrorists 24/7.

This is what being a Muslim today often feels like.


It's beyond wrong and it's a pretty crappy way to have to live isn't it.
 
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