Is sex reassignment surgery (SRS) plastic surgery?

Your Star · Jul 28, 2017

Ahlevah said:
Sure, but does he have a right to demand to be admitted into the military in order to get treatment or in spite of requiring it? Normally, people have to get whatever condition is affecting them cured or corrected before they enter military service, assuming it doesn't permanently disqualify them. Should the same criterion apply to transgender people? If not, why not?

Trans people, like most everyone who joins, join the military to serve. Not to get free healthcare. There are easier avenues to get health insurance that covers said treatment.

ecofarm · Jul 28, 2017

Your Star said:
Trans people, like most everyone who joins, join the military to serve. Not to get free healthcare. There are easier avenues to get health insurance that covers said treatment.

Hadn't seen this point made yet. It's a key point.

Ahlevah · Jul 28, 2017

Your Star said:
Trans people, like most everyone who joins, join the military to serve. Not to get free healthcare. There are easier avenues to get health insurance that covers said treatment.

Oh, I'm sure that's true. Nonetheless, if you're the Army and you want soldiers, all of whom want to serve, why should you take a person you know is going to cost you more money and sacrifice to readiness over one who, to your knowledge, is completely healthy and will be ready to ship out after training with minimal fuss? I mean, it's not just about the cost of counseling and hormone therapy or SRS, but also about things like how do you get the person off to a war theater on short notice when he's right in the middle of his transition? Why should the Army bother with these things when it doesn't have to? Why should the trans person be treated differently than someone afflicted with some other ailment or condition?

DA60 · Jul 28, 2017

Ahlevah said:
You disagree with the ban, but you also disagree with the public paying for surgery. Realistically, if transgenders are allowed in, then their best friend (the federal courts) will ensure that, in addition to getting a cot and three squares a day, they'll also get a new vagina or penis, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer.

I am against what I am against.

I am against the ban but I am also against the military paying for the surgeries in this case.

I cannot believe there is not a way to have it both ways...transgenders can serve - but the surgeries are up to them.

DA60 · Jul 28, 2017

Your Star said:
If you can provide evidence of a mass amount of transgender people doing this, also, how would they be allowed to do this? Anyways, if you can show me proof that trans people are doing this en mass, then maybe you have a point; however, there is no evidence of trans people doing this, and the money involved is so low anyway, this is no way to cut money.

Obviously I cannot prove what is in people's minds. But can you prove that they are not doing this, either. No offense, but you are naive if you think it never has/will happen.

And I see no reason whatsoever why someone in the military MUST have the surgeries while they are in the military. It will not kill them if they wait until they leave. And if they cannot wait - they should not have joined.

If someone is diagnosed with a medical problem, then they should receive the treatment for that medical problem. It shouldn't have anything to do with what that problem is, especially if they are willing to fight and die for this country.

Being transgender is NOT a medical problem...it is an emotional one.

To my knowledge, they are not in the slightest physical discomfort...they just want to be a different sex then they presently are.

That is not medical...that is psychological.

They want to change sex? Fine..knock themselves out. But do it on your own dime - not the taxpayers. Especially considering it is such an incredibly elaborate and expensive operation.

And you said the procedures are cheap? No they are not.

'and estimates that it is typical to spend a total of $40,000 to $50,000 for a mid-range transition, including surgery.'

Cost of Sex Reassignment Surgery - CostHelper.com

Maybe that is your idea of cheap...not mine.

If you are poor and cannot afford insurance...$50,000 is a GIGANTIC amount of money.

ecofarm · Jul 28, 2017

DA60 said:
I cannot believe there is not a way to have it both ways...transgenders can serve - but the surgeries are up to them.

Having them pay a few dollars a month for Obamacare to get the surgery is meaningless.

DA60 · Jul 28, 2017

X Factor said:
I do too, but it's not enough, is it? The anti ban people may be making a mistake in demanding capitulation to every potential demand. I think most people could be convinced that, as long as a person can fulfill their job requirements and maintain military standards of conduct, it really doesn't matter if someone is trans, but throw on, "oh, and you need to pay for whatever they can get a doctor to sign off on, and you'll be happy about it" and that may be a deal breaker.

Agreed...well said.

To be honest, I had no idea before yesterday that the military would actually pay for the surgery.

When I was in the military (granted, in the early 80's) if they gave you an aspirin for a headache you considered yourself fortunate. Now they will pay to have you change your sex? What's next...free rhinoplasty, breast enhancement, penile enhancement ('Sir, I just cannot face ISIS without an 8" dick').
Sorry...I do not see that changing one's sex has anything whatsoever to do with being a soldier.

X Factor · Jul 28, 2017

Your Star said:
Trans people, like most everyone who joins, join the military to serve. Not to get free healthcare. There are easier avenues to get health insurance that covers said treatment.

Hmmm, that's actually a pretty good point.

molten_dragon · Jul 28, 2017

Yes, the surgical part of SRS is plastic surgery obviously. It clearly meets the definition.

But plastic surgery is sometimes used as a treatment of a legitimate medical condition and not just for reasons of vanity. And in those cases health insurance, or whatever medical plan you're on should cover the procedure.

Your Star · Jul 28, 2017

DA60 said:
Obviously I cannot prove what is in people's minds. But can you prove that they are not doing this, either. No offense, but you are naive if you think it never has/will happen.

And I see no reason whatsoever why someone in the military MUST have the surgeries while they are in the military. It will not kill them if they wait until they leave. And if they cannot wait - they should not have joined.

Being transgender is NOT a medical problem...it is an emotional one.

To my knowledge, they are not in the slightest physical discomfort...they just want to be a different sex then they presently are.

That is not medical...that is psychological.

They want to change sex? Fine..knock themselves out. But do it on your own dime - not the taxpayers. Especially considering it is such an incredibly elaborate and expensive operation.

It is a psychological issue, which IS a medical issue. And I can not prove a negative. You have no proof there isn't a toaster orbiting around Saturn, but that doesn't mean we should be assume that a toaster is in fact orbiting around Saturn.

Also, if a person uses the military as an avenue in order to get healthcare and preforms their duty with honor and competence, why shouldn't they get what is due to them? Millions of people have used the military as a stepping stone to get an education, to save up money, etc.

And you said the procedures are cheap? No they are not.

'and estimates that it is typical to spend a total of $40,000 to $50,000 for a mid-range transition, including surgery.'

Cost of Sex Reassignment Surgery - CostHelper.com

Maybe that is your idea of cheap...not mine.

If you are poor and cannot afford insurance...$50,000 is a GIGANTIC amount of money.

To the US military, yes it is quite affordable. Let's not pretend this is about the money.

The overall estimated cost to the Pentagon: $4.2 million to $5.6 million — what the study’s author called “little more than a rounding error in the military’s $47.8 billion annual health care budget.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...ervice-members-would-be-minimal-studies-show/

holbritter · Jul 28, 2017

ecofarm said:
I was immediately on board.

Your post, 1:09 am:

My response, 1:13 am (4 minutes later):

Apparently, your description of "how you were using it" was insufficient. Clearly, SRS is not cosmetic surgery. Don't put blame on me for your mistake.

Wrong. That is a misinterpretation of the article.

I don't care who agrees with me, I'm right.

Where the heck did all those quotes come from? I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

DA60 · Jul 28, 2017

Your Star said:
It is a psychological issue, which IS a medical issue. And I can not prove a negative. You have no proof there isn't a toaster orbiting around Saturn, but that doesn't mean we should be assume that a toaster is in fact orbiting around Saturn.

My point is that if you want to believe that no one would ever do what I suggested, then you are naive. You don't agree...fine.

Also, if a person uses the military as an avenue in order to get healthcare and preforms their duty with honor and competence, why shouldn't they get what is due to them? Millions of people have used the military as a stepping stone to get an education, to save up money, etc.

IMO, the ONLY reason someone should EVER join the military is to risk their life to serve their country....with ZERO additional benefit out of it except that the military will take care of your basic needs for the rest of your life if you serve with distinction.

That is why I joined the military...not for profit or an education.

I do not care what the military has become...that is the way it should be, IMO.

And I assume you would then say that the military will never attract enough people doing things my way. And I would answer...GOOD. The military is at LEAST 50% too large as it is.

You disagree...fine.

To the US military, yes it is quite affordable. Let's not pretend this is about the money.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...ervice-members-would-be-minimal-studies-show/

Oh, come on now? That is a rationality? Well it costs nothing next to a $100+ million F-35...so it's fine then?

It's that kind of attitude that allows military waste to get completely out of control.

You should take every cost on it's own merit...not on the basis of how it relates to the overall military budget.

Look, your mind is obviously closed on this issue.

And I see no further point in the discussion.

So we are done here.

Good day.

CaptainCourtesy · Jul 28, 2017

DA60 said:
My point is that if you want to believe that no one would ever do what I suggested, then you are naive. You don't agree...fine.

Actually, if you want to base your position on something that would be extremely exceptional, as there is no evidence that it has ever been done, rather than what actually occurs, then your position is illogical. Could it happen? Sure, anything COULD happen. Does it happen? Unless you can prove that it is significant, your position on that matter has no merit.

CaptainCourtesy · Jul 28, 2017

X Factor said:
So anybody who needs plastic surgery should be able to join the military to have the military pay for it?

X Factor said:
Let me ask this, could you envision a set of circumstances in which a trans person would be refused some particular demand from the military that you would find reasonable? Is it ever ok to say no to a person who's trans?

Let me ask YOU... are you going to continue to misrepresent what people said because, for some reason, you have decided that this is your issue du jour to play the victim about? If you actually want to discuss this issue, REASONABLY, I believe you both know how to do it and know that I will engage in that way. If you want to act in the foolish way that you are, then expect to be treated in the way that you behave.

DA60 · Jul 28, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Actually, if you want to base your position on something that would be extremely exceptional, as there is no evidence that it has ever been done, rather than what actually occurs, then your position is illogical. Could it happen? Sure, anything COULD happen. Does it happen? Unless you can prove that it is significant, your position on that matter has no merit.

Lol...whatever.

CaptainCourtesy · Jul 28, 2017

DA60 said:
Lol...whatever.

I know. Don't you hate it when that silly thing like logic sinks your position?

DA60 · Jul 28, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
I know. Don't you hate it when that silly thing like logic sinks your position?

Lol...I didn't read your post so I have no idea what you are talking about.

I have told you before I have little respect for you...why would you think I would waste my time reading your posts (except when I am REALLY bored)?

But I learned that people with huge egos usually hate to be ignored or think their words are being belittled. So I figured posting 'LOL...whatever' was a good way to achieve that.
Just trying to help your emotional growth...no need to thank me.

Oh...don't bother answering this as I won't read it either.

Anyway...I have things to do and you have lots of people to condescend to so that you can make yourself feel superior and useful....so don't let me keep you.

Have a GREAT day.

ecofarm · Jul 28, 2017

holbritter said:
Where the heck did all those quotes come from? I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

Click on the little blue arrow near the name in any quote, it takes you to the post.

Edit: Oh, I see what you mean. He changed his post after I quoted him. The quotes without arrows were from his post above mine (the first blue arrow takes one to that post).

I didn't invent any of it. I'd be infracted pretty seriously if I invented quotes for people (outside of where that's permitted).

ecofarm · Jul 28, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Actually, if you want to base your position on something that would be extremely exceptional, as there is no evidence that it has ever been done, rather than what actually occurs, then your position is illogical. Could it happen? Sure, anything COULD happen. Does it happen? Unless you can prove that it is significant, your position on that matter has no merit.

People can't just invent a reason to not serve and get out of the military. Try that and one goes to prison. Not only is his scenario without any evidence of it ever happening, it's impossible.

CaptainCourtesy · Jul 28, 2017

DA60 said:
Lol...I didn't read your post so I have no idea what you are talking about.

I have told you before I have little respect for you...why would you think I would waste my time reading your posts?

But I learned that people with huge egos usually hate to be ignored or think their words are being belittled. So I figured posting 'LOL...whatever' was a good way to achieve that.
Just trying to help your emotional growth...no need to thank me.

Oh...don't bother answering this as I won't read it either.

Anyway...I have things to do and you have lots of people to condescend to so that you can make yourself feel superior and useful....so don't let me keep you.

Have a GREAT day.

See, if you don't say really dumb things, I won't have to correct you. Then, you won't be bothered with having to even see my posts. Just a little education for you, there. Oh... and your lack of respect is pretty meaningless, but I'm sure you already know that. You're probably used to having what you say as being seen as meaningless. Was that condescending enough?

CaptainCourtesy · Jul 28, 2017

ecofarm said:
People can't just invent a reason to not serve and get out of the military. Try that and one goes to prison. Not only is his scenario without any evidence of it ever happening, it's impossible.

Correct. Some of the scenarios that people are suggesting could happen are illegal... for anyone. Presenting them demonstrates their bias, hypocrisy, and ignorance on this issue.

DA60 · Jul 28, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
See, if you don't say really dumb things, I won't have to correct you. Then, you won't be bothered with having to even see my posts. Just a little education for you, there. Oh... and your lack of respect is pretty meaningless, but I'm sure you already know that. You're probably used to having what you say as being seen as meaningless. Was that condescending enough?

Again...did not read the above.

LOL...you know...it takes someone with a colossal ego to actually post answers to a person's posts when they know those posts will not be read.

I must REALLY be getting under your skin...noted.

Anyway, assuming you are wandering off topic with the above post - I must remind you to keep your posts on topic.

Have a GREAT day.

CaptainCourtesy · Jul 28, 2017

DA60 said:
Again...did not read the above.

LOL...you know...it takes someone with a colossal ego to actually post answers to a person's posts when they know those posts will not be read.

I must REALLY be getting under your skin...noted.

Anyway, assuming you are wandering off topic with the above post - I must remind you to keep your posts on topic.

Have a GREAT day.

No one gets under my skin. I'm responding to you because you don't want me to and no one tells me or anyone else on this board who they can or cannot respond to. I am curious as to why you would keep responding unless I am getting under YOUR skin.

Now, as far as the topic goes, since I have completely dispatched your illogical and idiotic position, do you have anything else you'd like to add?

ecofarm · Jul 28, 2017

DA60 said:
Again...did not read the above.

LOL...you know...it takes someone with a colossal ego to actually post answers to a person's posts when they know those posts will not be read.

I must REALLY be getting under your skin...noted.

Anyway, assuming you are wandering off topic with the above post - I must remind you to keep your posts on topic.

Have a GREAT day.

Most of us post for the audience, not the person we quote. Interaction here is not nearly as personal as you'd like to believe.

X Factor · Jul 28, 2017

CaptainCourtesy said:
Let me ask YOU... are you going to continue to misrepresent what people said because, for some reason, you have decided that this is your issue du jour to play the victim about? If you actually want to discuss this issue, REASONABLY, I believe you both know how to do it and know that I will engage in that way. If you want to act in the foolish way that you are, then expect to be treated in the way that you behave.

CC, you flat told me in another thread, or maybe this one, that you would not find anything reasonable in opposing paying for SRS. After that, there doesn't seem too much else to say. Granted, I've responded with sarcasm when I probably shouldn't have, but not toward you. I'm really trying not to let that happen. Personally, I think reasonable minds can differ on what the military should be on the hook for paying for and that one side or the other is not automatically and completely wrong. Like what if there were safeguards in place, like independent doctors and/or clinicians that would review whether SRS is truly medically necessary (an SRS death panel if you will) and not just some doc whose medical opinion can be bought or has an agenda, or how about a length of service requirement rather than heading to the hospital immediately after boot camp?

I admit to some frustration and I don't want to say something I'll regret later, because dang it, I still like and respect your irritating self.

Is sex reassignment surgery (SRS) plastic surgery?

Is sex reassignment surgery (SRS) plastic surgery?

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