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Should The US ally with Countries that don't share it's values

Yes_Minister said:
Its odd that Saudi Arabia supports terrorists as well, but no one, either Republican or Democrat administrations, calls them on it.
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It's equally odd that people seem to think that because Saudi individuals conducted terrorist attacks, that means Iran's governmental support of terrorists across the Middle East is somehow "justified".
 
OlNate said:
Interesting proposal...so, given that 15 of th 19 9/11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia, and since America and Saudia Arabia are still besties, what was the reparation package you guys settled on there?
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Did the Saudi government directly support the 9/11 attack?
 
Yes_Minister said:
Its odd that Saudi Arabia supports terrorists as well, but no one, either Republican or Democrat administrations, calls them on it.
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The Saudi government doesn't openly and directly support terrorist groups. Iran, on the other hand openly a directly supports and funds Hamas and Hezbollah. Iran has been convicted in American courts for being responsible for the Khobar Tower bombing. They also advised, trained and equipped terrorists that were fighting American troops in Iraq.
 
Parrish said:
Crispy, there's a difference between diplomacy and alliance. Sometimes we have to deal with the world as it is, diplomacy. Sometimes we act because of common interests. But when a country interferes with our elections and seeks to undermine our values and place among other nations, as Russia is, they are not an ally. They, and others, should be punished with sanctions.

If we here at DP knew the answer we'd be sharing the Nobel Prize.
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Not saying you are wrong, but it is a good thing no other country has the power to apply those same standards to the US.
 
In WWII the USSR was a U. S. ally and Saudi Arabia is a U. S. ally right now.
 
There's a fine line between allying with vs being at peace with said country. We can have mutually beneficial economic relations without allying with them. But if they step over the line and threaten a true ally? Or if they go so far opposite to our values that we step in to prevent a human right's issue? Then we end our peace.

In order to be a true ally, a nation we would go to bat for, I think we need very similar values. They would, in a way, be an extension of our nation. Sure, they don't follow our constitution, we don't tax them and they don't vote on our laws. But we would cover each other, to help spread freedom, and to ultimately keep ourselves free.
 
apdst said:
The Saudi government doesn't openly and directly support terrorist groups. Iran, on the other hand openly a directly supports and funds Hamas and Hezbollah. Iran has been convicted in American courts for being responsible for the Khobar Tower bombing. They also advised, trained and equipped terrorists that were fighting American troops in Iraq.
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The Saudi government gave money to the Taliban and supports schools that promote a reactionary version of Islam. Not to mention most of the hijackers were Saudi and bin Laden was Saudi.

I am not going to defend Iran, but Saudi Arabia was more involved with 9/11 then Iran was. The version of Islam the Saudi government promotes is the one favored by Al Qaeda and Isis.

Frankly the Saudi government is an evil parasite that steals the nation's wealth and then distracts the population with anti Western and anti Jewish propaganda
they promote a toxic environment that breeds terrorism.
 
Yes_Minister said:
The Saudi government gave money to the Taliban and supports schools that promote a reactionary version of Islam. Not to mention most of the hijackers were Saudi and bin Laden was Saudi.

I am not going to defend Iran, but Saudi Arabia was more involved with 9/11 then Iran was. The version of Islam the Saudi government promotes is the one favored by Al Qaeda and Isis.

Frankly the Saudi government is an evil parasite that steals the nation's wealth and then distracts the population with anti Western and anti Jewish propaganda
they promote a toxic environment that breeds terrorism.
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The United States gave money to the Taliban.
 
apdst said:
The United States gave money to the Taliban.
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That's not a good excuse for anything. The fact that the CIA invented the term "blowback" for when one of the US operations comes back to bite them in the butt, shows a change is needed.

I also don't think the US supported the Taliban, they supported the Islamic fighters who fought the Soviets in Afghanistan, many of whom ended up in the Taliban (some ended up in the Northern Alliance), while the Saudis funded the Taliban when everyone knew what they were and those schools the Saudi government sets up makes thinks worse in the Middle East, way worse.

Its hard to ignore that the Saudi government supports extremists groups and ideologies:

Citizen Trump was right about the Saudis; President Trump, not so much - LA Times
 
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I think it's more important to have friendly relations with Russia to combat the possibility of a China/Russia partnership(even moreso than there already is)
 
RetiredUSN said:
Drawing a line in the sand with countries for national defense/security is important, but we are not in crisis mode with Russia at this point and time. The Mullah and Arab Monarchy run countries are a different from Russia, and tend to operate mainly from a religious ideology in all forms of business with western countries. Dealing with the Russians is more like dealing with a national mafia syndicate. We have to approach each much differently from the other.

When it comes right down to the nitty gritty, our own trusted allies could care less if we take a beating as long their own country comes out ahead in any partnership regarding business, trade, or politics. Mutual agreements generally always have one side getting the better end of the deal.

Yeah....Russia isn't your typical friendly partnership like the EU, but that doesn't mean that we should ignore forming future trade agreements, strategic agreements, or cultural exchange.

Am I wrong?
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Actually we are arguable in Crisis mode with regards to Russia whether you lean towards an alliance to combat terrorism or you lean towards escalating sanctions and tensions because of the election interference. Since not one day goes by without those stories dominating the news, you could say we're reaching or have reached critical mass (if you believe the news)

I'm also less inclined to draw a distinction between religious ideology as a political driving force and say communism as a political driving force if the nations subscribing to those ideologies aims are the same and compels them to extremism and violations of international laws and standards. Communists, Fascists and Liberals have all been just as religious in their adherence to those ideologies as the formal religions.

I think you're right when you say our trusted allies, more specifically allies that share our values of a constitutional liberal democracy, could give a **** if we take a beating and I'd take it step further to say those Allies have a responsibility to challenge use when we overreach and violate international standards and laws ourselves. And they do challenge us all the time. It would then follow to me that any partnership or alliance we engage in ought to be respected with that same responsibility if, for instance, we allied with Russia in the war on Islamic Extremism and terrorism. Of course we should hold em to account like we would hold any of our allies to account.

Ultimately I don't think your views are wrong, although, in today's climate I believe our views, mine included, are too influenced by group think, political messaging, and biased media saturation. We lose our objectivity to the never ending chorus of soundbites that are designed to push us into a view that lacks more pragmatic reflection.

That's why I put this post up because i was curious as to whether I would hear some out of the box thinking on the subject as opposed to the chanting of that chorus.
 
Crispy said:
Since we're debating if the US should have diplomatic relations with Russia and the question of Russian values vs America's bill of rights (freedom of press etc..) is at issue, i thought this would be a more thought provoking question.
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Way to tricky of a question and I would need more info. In some cases I would not support it and do not depending on the violations in some cases it wouldn't matter. Some values just simply matter more than others and what our values are . . .are debatable.
 
LaylaWindu said:
Way to tricky of a question and I would need more info. In some cases I would not support it and do not depending on the violations in some cases it wouldn't matter. Some values just simply matter more than others and what our values are . . .are debatable.
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Well I think central to the question I asked here is whether we should be allying, working with, engaging in diplomacy with governments based on interests or based on values? The reason I bring that up is because most partisans and pundits pick one over the other not based on a true conviction but rather based on a partisan motivation.

I think most Obama supporters supported his engagement with Iran on grounds of national interest while the other side stood on values, and supporters of Trump tend the same way, on interests, towards his posture towards China and Russia while the other side argues we shouldn't deal with a regime whose values are so diametrically opposed to ours.
 
Crispy said:
Well I think central to the question I asked here is whether we should be allying, working with, engaging in diplomacy with governments based on interests or based on values? The reason I bring that up is because most partisans and pundits pick one over the other not based on a true conviction but rather based on a partisan motivation.
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But you didn't ask that at all. My answer is still basically the same though. It's not a black white issue, it would vary per the interest, per the values.

Crispy said:
I think most Obama supporters supported his engagement with Iran on grounds of national interest while the other side stood on values, and supporters of Trump tend the same way, on interests, towards his posture towards China and Russia while the other side argues we shouldn't deal with a regime whose values are so diametrically opposed to ours.
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That's a perfect example of exactly what I mean. Who can make the call over what is national interest and what are values. How can me or you determine which is which. In many cases it will just be subjective and many people feel their interests are their values.
 
LaylaWindu said:
But you didn't ask that at all. My answer is still basically the same though. It's not a black white issue, it would vary per the interest, per the values.



That's a perfect example of exactly what I mean. Who can make the call over what is national interest and what are values. How can me or you determine which is which. In many cases it will just be subjective and many people feel their interests are their values.
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Yep I left it open exactly to see what types of responses would come up and whether I'd see partisan responses or pragmatic responses. I personally think national interest is the most important consideration in dealing with any other nation. Whether it was Obama dealing with Iran or Trump dealing with Putin, mutual interest is most important.

That said, It's also our responsibility to call out any ally or partner on how they behave on the world stage and how they conform to international laws. I always liked that Reagan established the closest relationship with Russia (USSR) and yet had no problem calling them out on the world stage for the Berlin wall and on Communism despite that great relationship.
 
Given that the government does not always represent the popular consensus of the people and at times will act totally contrary to what we want, I'm not sure what this question could accomplish if insight or a "gotch'a" is what you are looking for.

Frankly, I do not believe we should be allied with Saudi Arabia nor Russia, but of course, that means little in matter of influence.

Furthermore, morals vary. I believe russia and saudi treat their homosexual community atrociously, but some smile at the thought of imprisoning homosexuals others simply can't be bothered to care.

The nuances make the conclusion anything but cut and dry.
 
Russia is a key ally as both countries have interests in ending the syrian Civil War. Already they have established a truce in one area
and now that the Syrians & Russiams have reduced the Islamic threat in the Homs area another truce area may be established soon.
They are the only two powers that can influence the end of this tragedy and it seems they are working together toward that end.
 
Crispy said:
Since we're debating if the US should have diplomatic relations with Russia and the question of Russian values vs America's bill of rights (freedom of press etc..) is at issue, i thought this would be a more thought provoking question.
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Not unless we consider Russians hacking into the Pentagon 1-1/2 years ago as a "friendly gesture." The hack was moving through the joints chief of staffs emails so quickly they had to shut it down for 2 weeks to replace hardware & software.
Russian hack on the Pentagon: Hackers struck last year at the heart of the U.S. military in 2015 - CBS News

They're also constantly trying to hack into electric grids--especially if they're feeding U.S. Military bases and other critical National Security locations.
House Homeland Security chairman warns hackers will target U.S. power grid - NaturalNews.com

I don't think we can consider Russians hacking into DNC databases to sway an American election as a "friendly gesture" regardless if you're a Republican or a Democrat.

So no we don't consider Russia to be an ally.

Apparently the only one that does is Trump--who at the G-20 proposed a cyber security unit with Vladimir Putin.:lol:

Republican senators Lindsey Graham, an influential South Carolina Republican who is a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, and Marco Rubio of Florida, who opposed Mr Trump for their party's presidential nomination, blasted the idea. "It's not the dumbest idea I have ever heard but it's pretty close," Senator Graham told NBC's Meet the Press program, saying Mr Trump's apparent willingness to "forgive and forget" stiffened his resolve to pass legislation imposing sanctions on Russia. US President Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin clearly had plenty to talk about in their highly-anticipated meeting, Washington correspondent Zoe Daniel writes.On Twitter, Mr Rubio said: "While reality & pragmatism requires that we engage Vladimir Putin, he will never be a trusted ally or a reliable constructive partner.
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G20: Republicans blast Donald Trump's idea to form cyber security unit with Vladimir Putin - Donald Trump's America - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
 
Oreo said:
Not unless we consider Russians hacking into the Pentagon 1-1/2 years ago as a "friendly gesture." The hack was moving through the joints chief of staffs emails so quickly they had to shut it down for 2 weeks to replace hardware & software.
Russian hack on the Pentagon: Hackers struck last year at the heart of the U.S. military in 2015 - CBS News

They're also constantly trying to hack into electric grids--especially if they're feeding U.S. Military bases and other critical National Security locations.
House Homeland Security chairman warns hackers will target U.S. power grid - NaturalNews.com

I don't think we can consider Russians hacking into DNC databases to sway an American election as a "friendly gesture" regardless if you're a Republican or a Democrat.

So no we don't consider Russia to be an ally.

Apparently the only one that does is Trump--who at the G-20 proposed a cyber security unit with Vladimir Putin.:lol:


G20: Republicans blast Donald Trump's idea to form cyber security unit with Vladimir Putin - Donald Trump's America - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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You should add China and North Korea to that list. And we should ourselves be added to the list for hacking the Iranians. Yet, with the exception of NK, we are, and have been dealing with them.

After WWII we became the closest allies with Japan and Germany. Reagan brought us closer to Soviet Russia than any president during the cold war and helped usher in the destruction of the berlin wall and end to the cold war.

So your point being they hacked us so we can't ally with them?
 
Crispy said:
Since we're debating if the US should have diplomatic relations with Russia and the question of Russian values vs America's bill of rights (freedom of press etc..) is at issue, i thought this would be a more thought provoking question.
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Since there are many different "values" expressed across the US I don't think this question is answerable. However, the answer anyway is a resounding yes. Even Obama felt it necessary to have dialogue with many nations who don't share our "values". Hell, we fought in the revolutionary war against England because we didn't share their values. We fought a civil war in our own country because the North didn't share the same values as the South.
 
Crispy said:
yep so, assuming sincerity here (making no judgments), since it's ok to ally with saudi arabia, it's ok to ally with Russia?
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Not unless they get us by the OPEC & the petrodollar the way the House of Saud did.

Only make deals with Russia where we are guaranteed to get more than we give up. And Putin won't play that way.
 
Why are we still allied with Israel even though they never apologized for attacking the USS Liberty?
 
Moderate Right said:
Since there are many different "values" expressed across the US I don't think this question is answerable. However, the answer anyway is a resounding yes. Even Obama felt it necessary to have dialogue with many nations who don't share our "values". Hell, we fought in the revolutionary war against England because we didn't share their values. We fought a civil war in our own country because the North didn't share the same values as the South.
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That's actually the answer I was looking for. I don't put limits on what diplomacy or alliances we me make in so much as it is in our interest and it's honest. Agreeing with our values is as futile as us agreeing with Putin's values. We all have common cause though.
 
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