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"Is Patriotism a virtue?"

Is this a valid interpretation of patriotism

  • Yes (explain)

    Votes: 14 58.3%

  • No (explain)

    Votes: 4 16.7%

  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 6 25.0%
  • Total voters
    24
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Unitedwestand13

Unitedwestand13

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The reason why I have the thread title in quotation is because the thread title is an article written by the Scottish philospher Alasdair macintyre titled Is patriotism a virtue?

Macintyre answers the question as a qualified yes and argues that patriotism can be a virtue if it it is practiced in a certain way.

The quote below is the relevant part of his essay

I understand the story of my life in such a way that it is part of the history of my family or of this farm or of this university or of this countryside; and I understand the story of the lives of other individuals around me as embedded in the same larger stories, so that I and they share a common stake in the outcome of that story and in what sort of story it both is and is to be: tragic, heroic, comic. A central contention of the morality of patriotism is that I will obliterate and lose a central dimension of the moral life if I do not understand the enacted narrative of my own individual life as embedded in the history of my country. For if I do not understand it I will not understand what I owe to others or what others owe to me, for what crimes of my nation I am bound to make reparation, for what benefits to my nation I am bound to feel gratitude.
Click to expand...

Do you agree with this interpretation of patriotism? Or do you value another interpretation?

https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/bitstream/1808/12398/1/Is Patriotism a Virtue-1984.pdf
 
I think John Cena said it nicely

 
"I understand the story of my life in such a way that it is part of the history of my family or of this farm or of this university or of this countryside; and I understand the story of the lives of other individuals around me as embedded in the same larger stories, so that I and they share a common stake in the outcome of that story and in what sort of story it both is and is to be: tragic, heroic, comic. A central contention of the morality of patriotism is that I will obliterate and lose a central dimension of the moral life if I do not understand the enacted narrative of my own individual life as embedded in the history of my country. For if I do not understand it I will not understand what I owe to others or what others owe to me, for what crimes of my nation I am bound to make reparation, for what benefits to my nation I am bound to feel gratitude."

reparation; I think that just about killed it as far as I am aware of
 
Patriotism is a lot like pride. Pride can be both a strength and a weakness. Think of a worker. Someone who takes pride in what they do. This is likely a very good worker, because of that pride. They take pride in what they do, they are not afraid to put their name on it, and as such, it's likely quality. So pride is a strength. But what about when that persons work isn't up to snuff? Now pride is a weakness, and potentially crippling one. Because, in their mind, their work IS up to snuff, else, why take pride in it? Which makes them taking criticism very hard. Pride feeds into cognitive dissonance, which acts to keep people from progressing to new ideas, methods, or mindsets. Pride is what compels people here to continue to argue, even after being PROVEN wrong. Pride is what keeps a worker from changing or adapting, or improving.

Pride is a major component of patriotism, and it's what can prevent a nation of people from seeing, or admitting their flaws. And therefor never fixing them.
 
Peter King said:
I do not believe in that reparation for crimes of my country.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that he meant financial reparations.

My interpretation of that statement: acknowledge that my country has committed wrongs in the past, and as a patriotic citizen it is my duty to recognize these moments of wrong doing and seek to learn from these moment of weakness in order to do better as a individual and as a citizen to the country I live in.
 
if ANY entity never has to answer for & to pay for wrongs committed then there is NO need to recognize wrongs committed & NO need to correct wrongs committed
 
KevinKohler said:
Patriotism is a lot like pride. Pride can be both a strength and a weakness. Think of a worker. Someone who takes pride in what they do. This is likely a very good worker, because of that pride. They take pride in what they do, they are not afraid to put their name on it, and as such, it's likely quality. So pride is a strength. But what about when that persons work isn't up to snuff? Now pride is a weakness, and potentially crippling one. Because, in their mind, their work IS up to snuff, else, why take pride in it? Which makes them taking criticism very hard. Pride feeds into cognitive dissonance, which acts to keep people from progressing to new ideas, methods, or mindsets. Pride is what compels people here to continue to argue, even after being PROVEN wrong. Pride is what keeps a worker from changing or adapting, or improving.

Pride is a major component of patriotism, and it's what can prevent a nation of people from seeing, or admitting their flaws. And therefor never fixing them.
Click to expand...


this is EXACLY why we keep having police come out of courts of law without any guilty verdicts; the system is flawed but no one is willing to 'fix' anything so, the police violence upon the civilian public continues, and no one has to answer for crimes committed by police .......
 
cuban smokes said:
this is EXACLY why we keep having police come out of courts of law without any guilty verdicts; the system is flawed but no one is willing to 'fix' anything so, the police violence upon the civilian public continues, and no one has to answer for crimes committed by police .......
Click to expand...

Well, I don't want to derail, but that's a tough one. How would you fix it? Not have a jury ultimately decide? To date, there's really only one or two instances were I think the jurors were clearly wrong...the rest? I find myself more or less in agreement with the jurors.

I think this isn't the problem, though. It's a symptom of a problem.
 
KevinKohler said:
Well, I don't want to derail, but that's a tough one. How would you fix it? Not have a jury ultimately decide? To date, there's really only one or two instances were I think the jurors were clearly wrong...the rest? I find myself more or less in agreement with the jurors.

I think this isn't the problem, though. It's a symptom of a problem.
Click to expand...


it is a cultural issue; civilians are taught (at a YOUNG age) to trust police, that police are perfect, that police will always do the right thing, and that police will never lie

there would never be a jury to convict a 'story' like that
 
It's good thing!

Patriotism peaked around 1950 when all towns small & large celebrated the 4th with parades down main street.
In that time period despite nativist fears foreigner successfully integrated into the nation. Why? most all were European
& Christian, 'after each wave of immigration there were long periods of no immigration giving Americans time to assimilate the newcomers,
their children passed through deeply patriotic public & parochial schools immersed in the language, history & traditions pf
this country.'

Patriotism is not a strong sentiment in this era, with 'schools being converted into madresses of modernity & history is taught as a series
of crime against people of color & childeren are forbidden to invoke the faith of our fathers.'

I saw a high school football game on TV last year and the broadcaster was praising the fact that on of the schools playing
had students who spoke 21 different languages, that doesn't sound like an incubator for patriotism to me.
Maybe there will be a revival of patriotism down the road, but at this time it looks unlikely
 
slick said:
It's good thing!

Patriotism peaked around 1950 when all towns small & large celebrated the 4th with parades down main street.
In that time period despite nativist fears foreigner successfully integrated into the nation. Why? most all were European
& Christian, 'after each wave of immigration there were long periods of no immigration giving Americans time to assimilate the newcomers,
their children passed through deeply patriotic public & parochial schools immersed in the language, history & traditions pf
this country.'

Patriotism is not a strong sentiment in this era, with 'schools being converted into madresses of modernity & history is taught as a series
of crime against people of color & childeren are forbidden to invoke the faith of our fathers.'

I saw a high school football game on TV last year and the broadcaster was praising the fact that on of the schools playing
had students who spoke 21 different languages, that doesn't sound like an incubator for patriotism to me.
Maybe there will be a revival of patriotism down the road, but at this time it looks unlikely
Click to expand...

We don't do parades down main street anymore because everyone is working.

Blaming our ills on immigration, when immigration is what we're all about is kinda silly, don't ya think?
 
KevinKohler said:
We don't do parades down main street anymore because everyone is working.

Blaming our ills on immigration, when immigration is what we're all about is kinda silly, don't ya think?
Click to expand...

No it's not silly to blame problems here on the immigration systems of the last 50 years, that is a huge part of the problems.

Cumulative number of living non-native citizens.

1860 Time of Civil War

Northern Europe 2,271,661
Ireland 1,611,304
Germany 1,276,075
Canada 249,970
France 109,870

These were the ethnics that elevated the USA over the 'Motherland' Great Britain as the greatest economic
& military power in the world just 2 generations later

Cumulative number of living non-native citizens.
2000
Mexico 9,177,487
Caribbean 2,953,066
India 1,022,552
China 988,857
Africa 881,300

These are the ethnics who proudly wave Mexican Flags in Los Angeles when the US competes with Mexico
in soccer games. These are the ethnics who are bent on escaping inequalities not in their favor & setting
up new inequalities that will be in their favor, the latter being their chief concern. These are the ethnics
that create the friction and who Americans for generations have told pollsters they want this type of
immigration restricted & illegals sent home.

But the social justice warriors champion this nonsense. This was among the reasons why Trump was elected,
the first president since Eishower to realize how detrimental our immigration policies have become

Imagine if the times of immigration were reversed. How many people would
be clamoring to enter a country founded & lead for 200 years by peoples
from Mexico, Caribbean, India, China & Africa.
 
slick said:
No it's not silly to blame problems here on the immigration systems of the last 50 years, that is a huge part of the problems.

Cumulative number of living non-native citizens.

1860 Time of Civil War

Northern Europe 2,271,661
Ireland 1,611,304
Germany 1,276,075
Canada 249,970
France 109,870

These were the ethnics that elevated the USA over the 'Motherland' Great Britain as the greatest economic
& military power in the world just 2 generations later

Cumulative number of living non-native citizens.
2000
Mexico 9,177,487
Caribbean 2,953,066
India 1,022,552
China 988,857
Africa 881,300

These are the ethnics who proudly wave Mexican Flags in Los Angeles when the US competes with Mexico
in soccer games. These are the ethnics who are bent on escaping inequalities not in their favor & setting
up new inequalities that will be in their favor, the latter being their chief concern. These are the ethnics
that create the friction and who Americans for generations have told pollsters they want this type of
immigration restricted & illegals sent home.

But the social justice warriors champion this nonsense. This was among the reasons why Trump was elected,
the first president since Eishower to realize how detrimental our immigration policies have become

Imagine if the times of immigration were reversed. How many people would
be clamoring to enter a country founded & lead for 200 years by peoples
from Mexico, Caribbean, India, China & Africa.
Click to expand...

Unless you're a Native American, you have zero standing to complain about immigrants.
 
RetiredUSN said:
American Indians didn't tolerate each other very well either..................long before the Euro's ever came here.
Click to expand...

So? Two wrongs don't make a right.
 
RetiredUSN said:
The stronger will always move in on the vulnerable. It is human nature.
Click to expand...

Left unchecked, yes. That's part of the "natural law" that Thomas Hobbes described. That's why we need governments to protect targeted groups and individuals.

Liberals and conservatives today are doing the same thing through gentrification.
Click to expand...

Gentrification is equivalent to genocide of Native Americans?? Wow, that escalated quickly.
 
RetiredUSN said:
American Indians didn't tolerate each other very well either..................long before the Euro's ever came here.
Click to expand...

True.


But that in no way changes the FACT that's it's a tad crass to complain and vilify immigration as a US citizen.
 
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