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Is a Traffic Stop, a GUN, and Being Black a REAL Issue, or NON Issue ?

Is a Traffic Stop, a GUN, and Being Black a REAL Issue, or NON Issue ?

  • YES = explain

    Votes: 8 66.7%

  • NO = explain

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • Total voters
    12
OpportunityCost said:
LOL, stereotype much? You don't know that. So why shift blame?
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Typical old white guy, Trump supporter afraid of blacks calls 911 because he perceived black kid with toy gun to be a danger. No stereotyping there, just using statistics like you did.
 
PeteEU said:
Facts:

1) US cops are not trained properly.
2) Many US cops are also as racist. Is it based on their experience, peer pressure, history or upbringing... a little of everything.
3) More whites are killed by cops than blacks.
4) Blacks are killed in a disproportional higher amount relative to their population.
5) Driving while Black is real.. it happens a lot, despite the denials of the right.
6) US cops get away with murder.. literally.

The problem is training.. US cops are trained to shoot first and ask questions .. maybe later. That means they basically have a license to execute people. Video after video showing where a person either is unarmed, or has a knife.. being gunned down by cops without any attempt to resolve the situation without bloodshed is ... far far too many lets put it that way. European cops are trained to subdue people first and only use deadly force as an absolute last resort.

I saw a video of a crazy man going nuts in the London underground. He had attacked 2 people with a knife, and the police had surrounded him. He was contained and the police tried to talk him down, but he refused. In the US, the guy would already be dead, but the UK police, with the armed police at the scene, used instead non lethal force and tasered him. He was arrested.

Take the traffic stop that most likely inspired this thread. The cop.. is a murderer... pure and simple. His actions were disgusting. He should be fired, and thrown in jail for manslaughter at a minimum, if not first degree murder. He executed the guy. This is not the first time it has happened either and it has to stop.
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It's not that clear cut here in the US. Cop shoots a fleeing felon almost never gets called a murder, and a conviction for lesser offenses like manslaughter is highly unlikely.

Why that is? Now that is a whole other debate. But, I suspect it's because cops truly do get the benefit of the doubt and are seen as innocent until proven guilty by most jurors. They also tend to be believed when testifying, even if what they say is contradicted by actual hard evidence. Not sure why...but I do have an idea.
 
spud_meister said:
Why is the life of a cop of more importance than anyone else?
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Its not a matter of cop's life being more important than the other's.

Why does disobeying a cop warrant being executed?
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The cop doesn't know you.So he or she doesn't know if you are reaching for a gun or a wallet. There have been many cases where cops puling people over have been fatal for the cop.
 
jamesrage said:
Its not a matter of cop's life being more important than the other's.
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That's precisely what you're saying. That the cop is fully justified preemptively shooting people if he feels threatened, but people who are threatened by cops should do everything they're told.

The cop doesn't know you.So he or she doesn't know if you are reaching for a gun or a wallet. There have been many cases where cops puling people over have been fatal for the cop.
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The person being pulled over doesn't know the cop, but they do know they're armed and willing to use deadly force, maybe those shooting of cops were simply preemptive self-defense?
 
Yes, I think it's a real issue. For whatever reason, police are more afraid when stopping black people than white people, that makes them more likely to use force.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Basing discussion of a (widespread?) problem/issue on two cases of questionable police conduct is a bad idea. Perhaps a better question is: do we really expect 100% perfect decision making of every police officer? I suspect that the answer is largely yes and that these (two?) poor decisions tend to get transferred to typical (all?) police in "similar" situations.

Out of many thousands (millions?) of split second decisions by police to shoot or not what is an acceptable (reasonable?) error rate?
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0% is the only acceptable error rate. I understand that isn't really realistic, but it should be the ultimate goal. And officers should not be given a pass for bad decisions that injure or kill someone because "We can't expect them to be perfect".
 
molten_dragon said:
0% is the only acceptable error rate. I understand that isn't really realistic, but it should be the ultimate goal. And officers should not be given a pass for bad decisions that injure or kill someone because "We can't expect them to be perfect".
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I agree that no "pass" should be given but I also insist that each officer be judged only their own actions. Threads like this, that use a case or two to describe the actions of police officers in general, make that hard to do.
 
I voted yes, however I don't believe it is racism as much as profiling, and how some in society now view police as expendable.

If anyone remembers, a couple of years ago into current times, it was like open season on cops. Rap songs about killing cops were popular and the general disrespect for authority and the lack of empathy of criminals and thinking it's nothing to just shoot at a cop. Shooting a cop used to be a line most criminals didn't cross with such casualty.

It's not an excuse for the shootings, but I believe it has a large influence on the cop's state of mind when they are in a situation. Could it be a misguided sense of survival? I certainly don't know what it's like to be out there wondering if today is the day I get killed doing my job. That kind of stress every day would be too much for me.

Yes, it's an issue, but I don't think painting all police as kill happy is the answer. There are many, many more traffic stops with black men that do not end up with a shooting.
 
spud_meister said:
That's precisely what you're saying.
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No its not.
That the cop is fully justified preemptively shooting people if he feels threatened, but people who are threatened by cops should do everything they're told.
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The cop is granted the authority to pull over people,which can be dangerous to the cop. The cop has the authority to use lethal force to defend himself on the job. If you are pulled over then you should follow the cop's instructions.


The person being pulled over doesn't know the cop, but they do know they're armed and willing to use deadly force,
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Irrelevant. Everyone knows cops are armed and will use deadly force if threatened or some other justified reason. Race has nothing to do with it.

maybe those shooting of cops were simply preemptive self-defense?
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Nothing more than anti-cop nonsense.
 
ForeignRightist said:
I voted no

Because the issue of carrying while armed is very delicate. There was a post recently here by a gentlemen who was carrying while stopped, and took the appropriate action resulting in him NOT being shot!

Let's ignore the fact that black culture teaches us to hate the police, or that officers being murdered by carriers during routine traffic stops is scarily common, and that the left is pushing this victim-hood narrative that african-americans are being oppressed by a ruling class. Let's pretend none of that exists, no matter which side of the argument you fall on.


If you are in your car, and are carrying, no matter what your skin looks like, it is easy to not get shot. Here is what you have to do: Inform the officer you are carrying, remain calm, listen to the officer, don't make any stupid movements, and do exactly what the officer says.

The officer DOES NOT know you, you can be the most upstanding citizen, but he DOES NOT know that. In a situation which has turned lethal for many officers before, it is best to just exercise caution, and do what you are told. That way, everyone walks away clean.

And, in the event you do all this and you are mistreated by the officer you get to sue the city for a lifetime of cash!
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What about the citizen that is ordered from the car without even getting to talk to the cop and the cop is fearful, "Sees" something that scares them further and just opens up and murders your ass?
 
calamity said:
It happened, and it certainly would not have happened if that boy was white. Hell, that old fart would not have even called the cops if that kid with a toy gun was white.
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When we were about 13 we used to jump through a few back yards dressed in camo and carrying very real looking weapons that were BB Guns. We were hopping fences to get to a nice big wooded area but in the pre-dawn dressed as we were? Damn... in hindsight we were lucky. Cops were called twice I think but they couldn't find us. We obviously ditched the guns and gear, but not the camo. This was pre-FLIR helicopters and such too...
 
calamity said:
I doubt the guy who called 911 was a liberal. He sounded like your typical Trump voter: white, male, over age 60.
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He sounded white? "Sounded"?

How does one sound a race or color or heck... and age?

I get the male part though...
 
Bodhisattva said:
When we were about 13 we used to jump through a few back yards dressed in camo and carrying very real looking weapons that were BB Guns. We were hopping fences to get to a nice big wooded area but in the pre-dawn dressed as we were? Damn... in hindsight we were lucky. Cops were called twice I think but they couldn't find us. We obviously ditched the guns and gear, but not the camo. This was pre-FLIR helicopters and such too...
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When I was 13, we ran from cops all the time, and actually got away. All they ever did was yell for us to stop.

Different times, different rules.
 
calamity said:
:roll:
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I don't have your talent. You should work with the FBI as a "Hearing Specialist". Catch some bad guys or something.
 
cuban smokes said:
Is a Traffic Stop, a GUN, and Being Black a REAL Issue, or NON Issue ? YES = EXPLAIN, or NO = EXPLAIN


plenty of debate here at DP concerning
(1) traffic stops

that involve a

(2) gun

and

(3) African Americans


PLEASE SEE BELOW THE PAGE UPON PAGE OF INFO HERE AT DP CONCERNING THE ISSUE


https://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/288326-officer-jeronimo-yanez-found-guilty-not-guilty.html

https://www.debatepolitics.com/brea...hilando-castile-found-not-guilty-w-456-a.html

https://www.debatepolitics.com/law-and-order/289572-maybe-race-black-cop-shot-white-officer.html

DP search – YANEZ
https://www.debatepolitics.com/search.php?searchid=6702309

DP search – Castile
https://www.debatepolitics.com/search.php?searchid=6702311
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The real issue is that blacks are often belligerent with the police when these things happen. While I concede that blacks are probably profiled more than whites, what do they think is going to happen when they are belligerent and disrespectful to a police officer? Common sense would tell you that it ain't gonna come out good, even if you aren't shot. Is getting a cop on your cellphone video or livestreaming a traffic stop really worth your life? Now I confess to not being black but in the Minnesota case, if my wife had been shot by police while I was with her in the car I would be freaking out, not pulling out my cellphone to video the aftermath.
 
ForeignRightist said:
I voted no

Because the issue of carrying while armed is very delicate. There was a post recently here by a gentlemen who was carrying while stopped, and took the appropriate action resulting in him NOT being shot!

Let's ignore the fact that black culture teaches us to hate the police, or that officers being murdered by carriers during routine traffic stops is scarily common, and that the left is pushing this victim-hood narrative that african-americans are being oppressed by a ruling class. Let's pretend none of that exists, no matter which side of the argument you fall on.


If you are in your car, and are carrying, no matter what your skin looks like, it is easy to not get shot. Here is what you have to do: Inform the officer you are carrying, remain calm, listen to the officer, don't make any stupid movements, and do exactly what the officer says.

The officer DOES NOT know you, you can be the most upstanding citizen, but he DOES NOT know that. In a situation which has turned lethal for many officers before, it is best to just exercise caution, and do what you are told. That way, everyone walks away clean.

And, in the event you do all this and you are mistreated by the officer you get to sue the city for a lifetime of cash!
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The simple and yet massively complex problem here, is that most people don't know what will or will not trigger a cop into shooting/killing them, and don't know how to "act correctly".

It strikes me as sad that we've reached a point where we're blaming dead people for not knowing how to avoid scaring a police officer into shooting them.
I'm of the opinion that police officers need to be trained with many more non-lethal responses to such confusion before they reach the gunfire response.

Because it's the police who are trained here, not the people getting shot.
 
The Mark said:
The simple and yet massively complex problem here, is that most people don't know what will or will not trigger a cop into shooting/killing them, and don't know how to "act correctly".

It strikes me as sad that we've reached a point where we're blaming dead people for not knowing how to avoid scaring a police officer into shooting them.
I'm of the opinion that police officers need to be trained with many more non-lethal responses to such confusion before they reach the gunfire response.

Because it's the police who are trained here, not the people getting shot.
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But over the last several years we've seen a huge rise in the number of officers being shot while on the job in these situations because they're afraid of being involved in one of these incidents and being charged.
 
Moderate Right said:
But over the last several years we've seen a huge rise in the number of officers being shot while on the job in these situations because they're afraid of being involved in one of these incidents and being charged.
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Really? Could you throw me a link or two? I frankly had not heard of that statistic.

Edit: And if that's accurate, it only underscores my position that more training is in order. Training on how to understand and de-escalate a situation, especially.
 
The Mark said:
The simple and yet massively complex problem here, is that most people don't know what will or will not trigger a cop into shooting/killing them, and don't know how to "act correctly".

It strikes me as sad that we've reached a point where we're blaming dead people for not knowing how to avoid scaring a police officer into shooting them.
I'm of the opinion that police officers need to be trained with many more non-lethal responses to such confusion before they reach the gunfire response.

Because it's the police who are trained here, not the people getting shot.
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1000% ................


 
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