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Should we change our electoral system?[W:319]

Should we change our system for electing presidents?

  • Total voters
    96
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

apdst said:
Until you guy loses the popular vote, but would have won the EC. Then, you'll want to change it back.
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Yep. At the time, I recall hearing that the Gore camp in the 2000 race expected to win the electoral college vote and lose the popular vote and were preparing a public relations push to defend the electoral college system.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

radcen said:
Keep the EC. Despite what people say on the losing side, it does serve a legitimate purpose. And I do believe that those who dislike it now would support it had the vote gone the other way. I say that because the people doing the loudest complaining are also on the extreme fringe of their side, more often than not.

I would be open to a little tweaking, though...

- I would take primaries away from the parties/states and have a standardized process throughout.
- I would lower the threshold for participating in debates to 2% of polls.
- Same 2% threshold for ballot access.

Maybe more.
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The only part of that I agree with is a standardized system from state to state. I think every state should be winner take all. And limiting the debate threshold is to 2% would be ludicrous. You should have learned that from the GOP's 7 candidate primary debates. The majority of those 17 stood little to no chance of getting the nomination and were only a distraction.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

ObamacareFail said:
Good luck with that virtually impossible task. You would never get enough states to ratify a constitutional amendment that would implement that insane system.
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No doubt that was said about getting rid of slavery and elevating women to equal legal status and all manner of things in our nation. But yet, progress was made and changes made and we move on and move up as a nation and as a people because of those changes.

I am sure you have a point. Why would the smallest states give up a system that they unfairly benefit from where votes from their citizens are afforded the weight three to four times a citizen from some other states. After all, are not people inherently selfish and thus act only in the realm of their own personal interest?

But one could make the same argument about whites freeing slaves with the act of their own deaths. And one could make the same argument as to why men would give up their power over women and give them legal equality. But both whites and men did both and the changes came in time.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

ObamacareFail said:
Yep. At the time, I recall hearing that the Gore camp in the 2000 race expected to win the electoral college vote and lose the popular vote and were preparing a public relations push to defend the electoral college system.
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And I had "heard" that an army of unicorns was intending to march on Washington demanding green barns be built for each one of them with diamonds in the wood to adorn their stalls.

I cannot prove that - and neither can you prove a claim equally absurd about Gore.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

haymarket said:
No doubt that was said about getting rid of slavery and elevating women to equal legal status and all manner of things in our nation. But yet, progress was made and changes made and we move on and move up as a nation and as a people because of those changes..
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You so often come up with the goofiest straw man arguments. Abolishing slavery and giving women the right to vote happened because it was the right thing to do and eventually culturally accepted. The amendment process is intentionally difficult so that changes would not be made easily merely based on emotion. The electoral college was designed to give every state and every region some say in who was going to lead the United States of America. Special emphasis on "united states". I know you understand those reasons as you claim to have taught "Government" for three decades.

I am sure you have a point. Why would the smallest states give up a system that they unfairly benefit from where votes from their citizens are afforded the weight three to four times a citizen from some other states. After all, are not people inherently selfish and thus act only in the realm of their own personal interest?
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For the sake of your nonsense argument, forget about the states for a second. Under a popular vote system, only the large population centers like Los Angeles, New York City, Boston, Detroit, etc would have any real influence. There would be no incentive to listen to the farmers in Kansas and Nebraska, or for that matter, in California or new York. There would be no incentive to listen to the steel workers in Pennsylvania, or the mine workers in Virginia. Deep down, you understand that and if the roles were reversed in 2000 and 2016, you would be the worlds biggest fan of the electoral college system. You are fooling nobody.

But one could make the same argument about whites freeing slaves with the act of their own deaths. And one could make the same argument as to why men would give up their power over women and give them legal equality. But both whites and men did both and the changes came in time.
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But then, slaves and even whites fought to abolish slavery. Women fought to get the vote. Both were on the right side of those issues. They were not "butthurt over the outcome of an election.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

haymarket said:
And I had "heard" that an army of unicorns was intending to march on Washington demanding green barns be built for each one of them with diamonds in the wood to adorn their stalls.

I cannot prove that - and neither can you prove a claim equally absurd about Gore.
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The difference is that your scenario is instantly written fantasy. My scenario is at least plausible. And the truth is that it was in the news at the time.And I honestly do remember it. And I do not have to prove it. It's not necessarily easy to find a link to a 17 year old news story. You can take it or leave it. I do not care one way or the other.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

Crosscheck said:
Your value as an American citizen should not differ no matter if you like in NY city or Post Falls , Idaho. But people who disagree with that are the same ones who get upset that towns with population of 400 don't have international airports.
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We are not a direct democracy.Our founders set up our system so that densely populated states don't get to pick all the presidents by themselves.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

jamesrage said:
We are not a direct democracy.Our founders set up our system so that densely populated states don't get to pick all the presidents by themselves.
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A direct democratic system is one in which the power to make decisions of government is in the hands of the people and there is no middle man between the people and decisions of governmental power. A nation of over three million people count not be a direct democracy for very very very practical reasons. There is no building to hold such a large crowd and the logistics of it would be impossible. We have representative democracy and that is the system.

We vote for people who want to run government in our name. That is how it works.

This red herring about direct democracy is foolish and merely distracts from reality.

If we elected the president by strict popular vote, we would still have representative democracy.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

ObamacareFail said:
The difference is that your scenario is instantly written fantasy. My scenario is at least plausible. And the truth is that it was in the news at the time.And I honestly do remember it. And I do not have to prove it. It's not necessarily easy to find a link to a 17 year old news story. You can take it or leave it. I do not care one way or the other.
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Fiction is fiction is fiction. Unless you can prove what you said you "heard" it might as well be talking unicorns or hobbits bearing rings of power or children shuffling into other worlds through wardrobe chests.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

haymarket said:
A direct democratic system is one in which the power to make decisions of government is in the hands of the people and there is no middle man between the people and decisions of governmental power. A nation of over three million people count not be a direct democracy for very very very practical reasons. There is no building to hold such a large crowd and the logistics of it would be impossible. We have representative democracy and that is the system.

We vote for people who want to run government in our name. That is how it works.

This red herring about direct democracy is foolish and merely distracts from reality.

If we elected the president by strict popular vote, we would still have representative democracy.
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Usually those bitching "well Hillary won the popular vote" seem to be unaware of reality.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

Crosscheck said:
Don't quite an answer do you. See what happens when you want to even the field for one minority all these others pop up.
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And you obviously never possessed an ability to ask a legitimate question.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

ocean515 said:
And you obviously never possessed an ability to ask a legitimate question.
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With the two candidates we had last time it really isn't worth discussing. They should have just had Trump and Clinton do rock paper scissors.

I predict the next election will be the same.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

Crosscheck said:
With the two candidates we had last time it really isn't worth discussing. They should have just had Trump and Clinton do rock paper scissors.

I predict the next election will be the same.
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The Democrats allowed one Candidate to run for President, along with a token to attract attention.

The Republicans had what, 15 candidates? Voters decided who among those 15 would run in the General.

Doesn't appear that one party is lost in a Ground Hogs Day of wash, rinse, repeat.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

haymarket said:
Fiction is fiction is fiction. Unless you can prove what you said you "heard" it might as well be talking unicorns or hobbits bearing rings of power or children shuffling into other worlds through wardrobe chests.
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You are the one dreaming up unicorns and hobbits.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

haymarket said:
A direct democratic system is one in which the power to make decisions of government is in the hands of the people and there is no middle man between the people and decisions of governmental power. A nation of over three million people count not be a direct democracy for very very very practical reasons. There is no building to hold such a large crowd and the logistics of it would be impossible. We have representative democracy and that is the system.

We vote for people who want to run government in our name. That is how it works.

This red herring about direct democracy is foolish and merely distracts from reality.

If we elected the president by strict popular vote, we would still have representative democracy.
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Because who needs checks and balances, right?
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

Should we change our electoral system?
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the electoral college system? no. what we should change :

1. the primaries. there is no reason why the same ten or fifteen states should get to pick the nominees every time. that is completely unfair and undemocratic. we should either have a national primary day (which i prefer,) or two Super Tuesdays in which everyone has a chance to vote.

2. gerrymandering. it needs to be eliminated nationwide. districts should be drawn by computer once every ten years using only population density data. people sometimes argue that gerrymandering doesn't have anything to do with presidential elections, but it does. when we create safe districts, they become partisan purity contests. the candidates become increasingly extreme, making the national political climate exponentially more volatile. if we can minimize or eliminate carefully drawn safe districts, the result will be more moderate candidates on both sides who will be more inclined to compromise. hopefully if we do this, we'll have fewer extremist blowhards finding a solid platform in the presidential primaries.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

OpportunityCost said:
Because who needs checks and balances, right?
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Changing from a EC mechanism to a popular vote mechanism does not change the protections of checks and balances.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

ObamacareFail said:
You are the one dreaming up unicorns and hobbits.
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Actually JRR Tolkein dreamed up hobbits. And my point was made and even you recognized it.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

haymarket said:
Actually JRR Tolkein dreamed up hobbits. And my point was made and even you recognized it.
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Either way, I win. The electoral college is here to stay.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

Hawkeye10 said:
And we need more tiny states so that we can make the problem worse...Add DC and PR Immediately!
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Folks in either of those even get to vote?
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

haymarket said:
Changing from a EC mechanism to a popular vote mechanism does not change the protections of checks and balances.
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Of course it does. The check and balance in this case is protecting smaller populations and smaller states from disenfranchisement, mirroring our congressional representation.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

ObamacareFail said:
Either way, I win. The electoral college is here to stay.
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You can put away both your judges robe and your referee uniform now that your imagined job is done. :roll::doh give yourself an imaginary parade to go with your imaginary win. :lamo
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

OpportunityCost said:
Of course it does. The check and balance in this case is protecting smaller populations and smaller states from disenfranchisement, mirroring our congressional representation.
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The people in all states will be equally represented and not one person will lose their vote. There is no change in checks and balances outside of delusions and imagination.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

haymarket said:
You can put away both your judges robe and your referee uniform now that your imagined job is done. :roll::doh give yourself an imaginary parade to go with your imaginary win. :lamo
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Nothing imaginary. I favor the electoral college system which has existed since our founding. You favor a popolar vote system which would have to come by way of a constitutional amendment. Do you really think your chances of getting such an amendment passed are good. if so, you are the one seeing unicorns.
 
Re: Should we change our electoral system?

haymarket said:
The people in all states will be equally represented and not one person will lose their vote. There is no change in checks and balances outside of delusions and imagination.
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We have been over this argument before. The Electoral College structure, is in itself a check and balance between small and large states. Its a feature, not a bug.

You are just whiny because the expected anointment you expected was overturned by the electoral college. Your argument is an emotional one, not a rational one.
 
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