• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Did the USA meddle in the French Election?

Did the USA meddle in the French election?

  • Yes. Obama meddled.

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • No. Getting your message out in another country is OK.

    Votes: 10 66.7%
  • Total voters
    15
Snakebite said:
Oh boy. Where to begin...
Click to expand...

Well, you could start with the congressional hearings....

ROS-LEHTINEN: I'd like to ask you gentlemen if you could describe what, if anything, Russia did in this election that to your knowledge they did or they didn't do in previous elections, how -- how it was -- were their actions different in this election than -- than in previous ones.

ROGERS: I'd say the biggest difference from my perspective was both the use of cyber, the hacking as a vehicle to physically gain access to information to extract that information and then to make it widely, publicly available without any alteration or change.

COMEY: The only thing I'd add is they were unusually loud in their intervention. It's almost as if they didn't care that we knew what they were doing or that they wanted us to see what they were doing. It was very noisy, their intrusions in different institutions.....

ROGERS: I've -- I agree with Director Comey. I mean, a big difference to me in the past was while there was cyber activity, we never saw in previous presidential elections information being published on such a massive scale that had been illegally removed both from private individuals as well as organizations associated with the democratic process both inside the government and outside the government.
Click to expand...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ence-in-2016-election/?utm_term=.35df991f885b



So if you can back up your claim of the US doing the same as what the Russians did in the 2016 US election...that would be great. :)
 
Grand Mal said:
could not be tracked but were suspected of coming from say China

Say that three times aloud and then tell me how it should influence anything in the real world.
Listen. I don't give a crap about Hillary the Gorgon. I just wonder why you do. The SCOTUS appointment hysteria has passed, why does Trump still warrant your support and Clinton your contempt? You must know by now that after the dust has settled Trump will be out-front guilty of much worse than the penny-ante Clinton Foundation suppositions.
Click to expand...

my BS detector just redlined
 
Snakebite said:
A side question - how is this any different from Russia's "meddling" in the American election?
Click to expand...
Unless you can demonstrate that the CIA hacked into Marine Le Pen's server, then it's fairly obvious how the Russian meddling is different.
 
Not much to agree with here. Go paragraph by paragraph, I guess...

Snakebite said:
For all intents and purposes, Canada is the United States. I'd call you a semi-independent protectorate. It's a matter of fact that the US controls nearly all of your military and defense, nearly all of your economy, and nearly all of your culture. When you travel abroad, everyone thinks you're American. That's why you have to wear those goofy canadian flag jackets.
Click to expand...

The US doesn't control any of our military or defense. That's an argument that American right-whingers love, "We're protecting you!" but nobody knows who they're protecting us from. We don't have enemies, and that's a concept that Americans can't seem to wrap themselves around.
I've never been mistaken abroad for an American. I was mistaken for English in Papeete once, by an Australian who should have known better. The subject came up in a pub in Crief, in Scotland. We were talking about the similar relationships between Canada and the US and Scotland and England. I said you'd probably have to be Canadian or American to know the difference and was immediately told no, that accent was the first giveaway and presentation the second. Americans abroad don't present well, and Canadians abroad do.
Anyone you saw abroad wearing a 'goofy Canadian flag jacket' was probably an American incognito, hoping to pass.

Snakebite said:
You've taken the slow walk from your existence in the British orbit to now being nearly fully Americanized. Hell, even the British themselves are Americanized these days... but you Canadians are indistinguishable from your American cousins from the way you dress to the way you drive to the way you sound to what you eat, listen to, and like to do for fun.
Click to expand...

Not sure what 'Americanized' means but if you mean the pervasiveness of American culture, you have a point. Music, mostly, and video culture, movies and TV. Sports, no. Way we dress? C'mon. How trivial is that? As for what we eat, where I am there's a much bigger influence from Asia than from America or Europe.

Snakebite said:
Either way, you've been involved in every war America have been involved in, and you're hooked in to the CIA and NSA as if you were the 51st state. You're 100% complicit.
Click to expand...

No we haven't. We were in Afghanistan because our ally was attacked and because NATO but we weren't in Iraq or Vietnam or any other American military adventure. In fact, the other two times we fought alongside Americans they joined a war we were already involved in, WW's 1 and 2. Previous to that, we were involved in a war with the US but we were on opposite sides.
 
Snakebite said:
Since the thing these days seems to be that countries are not supposed to meddle in one another's elections....

This message from Barack Obama ran on French Television prime time before the election. He endorses Marcon and openly encourages the French people to vote for him.




A side question - how is this any different from Russia's "meddling" in the American election?
Click to expand...


Ridiculous poll. Obama isn't in office now or during the recent French election. Total fail.
 
Snakebite said:
I'm sure the USA has never hacked anybody. Right?
Click to expand...

You mean like Russian using bots and trolls planting fake news stories in social media to favor one side in an election? Show me evidence that we have, I'd be willing to listen. I think, however, you pulled your accusation out of your behind.
 
Snakebite said:
Oh boy. Where to begin...
Click to expand...

So begin. Your accusation is that the U.S. tried to hack the election of one of our allies. It's not unfair to ask you to back your accusation up.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
Sure we have. We have also tried to overthrow governments and influence elections...
Click to expand...

Of a European ally? Who and when?

Skeptic Bob said:
I don't begrudge Russia for trying to influence our election. I begrudge Americans who would look the other way or try to convince us it didn't happen.
Click to expand...

I do agree with that.
 
Grand Mal said:
Not much to agree with here. Go paragraph by paragraph, I guess...



The US doesn't control any of our military or defense. That's an argument that American right-whingers love, "We're protecting you!" but nobody knows who they're protecting us from. We don't have enemies, and that's a concept that Americans can't seem to wrap themselves around.
I've never been mistaken abroad for an American. I was mistaken for English in Papeete once, by an Australian who should have known better. The subject came up in a pub in Crief, in Scotland. We were talking about the similar relationships between Canada and the US and Scotland and England. I said you'd probably have to be Canadian or American to know the difference and was immediately told no, that accent was the first giveaway and presentation the second. Americans abroad don't present well, and Canadians abroad do.
Anyone you saw abroad wearing a 'goofy Canadian flag jacket' was probably an American incognito, hoping to pass.



Not sure what 'Americanized' means but if you mean the pervasiveness of American culture, you have a point. Music, mostly, and video culture, movies and TV. Sports, no. Way we dress? C'mon. How trivial is that? As for what we eat, where I am there's a much bigger influence from Asia than from America or Europe.



No we haven't. We were in Afghanistan because our ally was attacked and because NATO but we weren't in Iraq or Vietnam or any other American military adventure. In fact, the other two times we fought alongside Americans they joined a war we were already involved in, WW's 1 and 2. Previous to that, we were involved in a war with the US but we were on opposite sides.
Click to expand...

American right-wing? Buddy, you're confused. Regardless of your own political bend, it's the American left you should be worried about if you wish to maintain space with the United States. The right don't want you. The left do. Who would benefit more from annexing a province or two from Canada, liberals or conservatives? Hint: the answer is liberals.

Why do you suppose Obama and the left don't allow oil pipelines to be built from Manitoba and Alberta to the USA? Who would be the most happy if we added a breakaway Canadian province, liberals or cons? Here's a hint: at one point in our history, some Americans wanted to annex Texas, others wanted to annex Canada, and that was a big debate for a time. Guess who took each side.

Canada as you know it will cease to exist in 100 years. You could make a case that Newfoundland and Quebec are sufficiently unique, but the entire Western Canada and good parts of Eastern Canada are indistinguishable from the United States. Toronto, Edmonton, and Vancouver are essentially American cities. You have no restrictions on secession. All it will take is a liberal president who decides to squeeze the economy of one of your western provinces and they'll want to break off on their own.

But more importantly, Canada's current state of existence doesn't make logistical sense. Economics is like gravity, it's a force that you never bet against. How can such a small population properly develop the great north? Look at the development of Alaska vs your northern territories. You have a lot of stuff up there worth developing. And then you have the simple economic truth that it's a lot farther in Canada to go east-west than north-south. Or... most Canadian cities are closer to the US than they are to other major Canadian cities.

Put another way, look at the Manitoba and Alberta examples. The most natural way to develop those economies is to link them to the North Dakota Baakan shale pipelines and refineries.... North and South. The most logical trading partner for Toronto is the US east coast... not Vancouver.

If you really look at the trajectory of Canada since the 1920's, it's been toward the United States.
 
Last edited:
Snakebite said:
American right-wing? Buddy, you're confused. Regardless of your own political bend, it's the American left you should be worried about if you wish to maintain space with the United States. The right don't want you. The left do. Who would benefit more from annexing a province or two from Canada, liberals or conservatives? Hint: the answer is liberals.

Why do you suppose Obama and the left don't allow oil pipelines to be built from Manitoba and Alberta to the USA? Who would be the most happy if we added a breakaway Canadian province, liberals or cons? Here's a hint: at one point in our history, some Americans wanted to annex Texas, others wanted to annex Canada, and that was a big debate for a time. Guess who took each side.

Canada as you know it will cease to exist in 100 years. You could make a case that Newfoundland and Quebec are sufficiently unique, but the entire Western Canada and good parts of Eastern Canada are indistinguishable from the United States. Toronto, Edmonton, and Vancouver are essentially American cities. You have no restrictions on secession. All it will take is a liberal president who decides to squeeze the economy of one of your western provinces and they'll want to break off on their own.

But more importantly, Canada's current state of existence doesn't make logistical sense. Economics is like gravity, it's a force that you never bet against. How can such a small population properly develop the great north? Look at the development of Alaska vs your northern territories. You have a lot of stuff up there worth developing. And then you have the simple economic truth that it's a lot farther in Canada to go east-west than north-south. Or... most Canadian cities are closer to the US than they are to other major Canadian cities.

Put another way, look at the Manitoba and Alberta examples. The most natural way to develop those economies is to link them to the North Dakota Baakan shale pipelines and refineries.... North and South. The most logical trading partner for Toronto is the US east coast... not Vancouver.

If you really look at the trajectory of Canada since the 1920's, it's been toward the United States.
Click to expand...

What a bizarre take on Canada-US relations.
You don't seem to understand how the US influence has changed in the past couple generations. You don't drive economies elsewhere anymore. You're not the world's dominant producer- that lasted a couple generations but you all squandered your inheritance. What you are now is a market. Economies that can produce cheaply compete for American bucks.
Canada, a producer nation, deals more every year with Asia, and we've just lately made a free-trade agreement with Europe. We'll hurt, yes, if NAFTA goes under but so will you. And our upside, our future, looks pretty bright and it doesn't depend on the US.
You guys had a very brief hegemony and it's fading fast. You said Canada wouldn't exist in 100 years but I say that in 100 years the US will be an economic and cultural backwater.
Squandered your inheritance, you did. Your grandfather would be pissed off.
 
Did the USA meddle in the French Election?

Do ducks quack?
 
Grand Mal said:
What a bizarre take on Canada-US relations.
You don't seem to understand how the US influence has changed in the past couple generations. You don't drive economies elsewhere anymore. You're not the world's dominant producer- that lasted a couple generations but you all squandered your inheritance. What you are now is a market. Economies that can produce cheaply compete for American bucks.
Canada, a producer nation, deals more every year with Asia, and we've just lately made a free-trade agreement with Europe. We'll hurt, yes, if NAFTA goes under but so will you. And our upside, our future, looks pretty bright and it doesn't depend on the US.
You guys had a very brief hegemony and it's fading fast. You said Canada wouldn't exist in 100 years but I say that in 100 years the US will be an economic and cultural backwater.
Squandered your inheritance, you did. Your grandfather would be pissed off.
Click to expand...

I read about how Canada is exploring ties with China in your newspaper. That's good. You should be doing that even if NAFTA still is going strong. But here's your problem... if Canada is a producer nation, and China is a producer nation, then what are they going to buy from you? They don't import a lot as it is. They have oil and lumber in Asia as well. Are you going to undercut the Saudis? The EU thing could be more fruitful for you. They have plenty of lumber, but they'll probably buy your oil if you build export terminals. Or, you could use the existing American export terminals on the east coast if you can find a way to transport your oil that far.

You also didn't mention this, but you have an opportunity to link up with Britain and the commonwealth in a future free trade deal that is being kicked around. Once Brexit is done, they're gonna be in need of some amigos.

But really, you're linked to the US in exactly the way I said. It makes more sense to sell your lumber to a sawmill in Oregon than Beijing, and to pipe your oil to Illinois rather than to put it in barrels and ship it half way around the world. That's why we buy Canadian lumber rather than Polish lumber.

I respect your independent streak... interesting coming from a Canadian. It's too bad you guys didn't have such an independent streak back in 1776... seeing that your country is founded by a bunch of loyalist turncoats!

The other 13 colonies: "let's fight for our independence from the British!"
Canada: "nah, we're good, eh?"

And all the turncoats and loyalists fled the 13 colonies and became your forefathers there in Canada. But your destiny lies with the rest of the United States.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom