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The Viability of Socialism

Is Socialism Viable

  • Yes it can be implemented in a society

    Votes: 21 26.3%
  • Yes it can be implemented but with only a certain mentality

    Votes: 8 10.0%
  • No it is a ludicrous pipe dream

    Votes: 37 46.3%
  • No the mentality isn't compatible

    Votes: 14 17.5%

  • Total voters
    80
You do understand that being disabled in no way equals sloth or lack of effort. This was a really dumb statement, turtle.

The same questions may be asked of reasons to support and especially the level of support a citizen should be required to pay for those more challenged. It is no easy argument in a relativistic society like ours.
 
socialism in its extreme runs contrary to human nature. It also violates much of the constitution. Most people will not work harder so that others can get more and more without contributing.

on a more visceral level-Dame Thatcher's comments were appropriate-the problem with socialism is that you run out of other peoples' money.

Socialism only runs one way, extreme.
 
You do understand that being disabled in no way equals sloth or lack of effort. This was a really dumb statement, turtle.

No one is talking about the disabled. They are talking about a way of life the forms a permanent dependence where people end up becoming slaves to a system. We have to teach people that they can achieve their dreams, not teach them that they are victims who can only survive with govt support. Most conservatives, I know, have no problem with a limit handout program, but we can't have people staying there permanently. Those deemed able should be engaged in productive work and move out of social programs.
 
It can last as long as they don't run out of other people's money.
 
You do understand that being disabled in no way equals sloth or lack of effort. This was a really dumb statement, turtle.

Agree 100% with you that disabled does not equal sloth. However, I also think there are varying levels of disabilities, and not all of those with any level of disabilities need to be given "support" in the sense of the government supporting your ability to live without working/minimal working.

SCitizen is of the mind that people with pretty much any "disability" (even ones he acknowledge aren't "provable"), for example "moderate depression", should simply be provided for nearly in full.

I have people in my life with mental health issues that absolutely do need varying levels of support; but they absolutely are fully capable of handling a job and not in need of the ability to completely live off the government. I myself have a physical ailment that is technically considered a disability by the government, but one that I'm able to manage with medication and the occasional sick day. As such I continue to work instead of sitting here thinking the government should simply just support me while I engage in little to no work. Nor do I really consider it a "disability", in relation to what I feel that word is truly referencing.

Absolutely, being disabled does not equate to sloth or lacking effort. HOWEVER, being disabled does not mean one is unable to engage in sloth or lack of effort either.
 
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100% Yes to Scandinavian Socialism.

100% No to Totalitarianism.

Isn't their socialism primarily funded by their oil industry?


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I know that there are a lot of you who believe that Socialism is a ludicrous pipe dream, but I disagree.
I think that Socialism can be viable if it is gradually implemented and the people are educated in the pros and cons of the system.
If you think about it, Socialism is a system dedicated to the rights of workers and economic/social equality. It also emphasizes government regulation and workers cooperatives, and it sets up universal healthcare and public colleges.

If you are against Socialism, express your deal breaker calmly and explain. I know this stuff causes tempers to flair, so let's try to have a pleasant debate.

The problem with socialism is that the government does not GENERATE wealth. It doesn't create cash flow. It moves it, but it does not create it. It doesn't bring it in. Not really.


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The problem with socialism is that the government does not GENERATE wealth. It doesn't create cash flow. It moves it, but it does not create it. It doesn't bring it in. Not really.


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It's the form of government loved by the wealth redistribution crowd.
 
I know that there are a lot of you who believe that Socialism is a ludicrous pipe dream, but I disagree.
I think that Socialism can be viable if it is gradually implemented and the people are educated in the pros and cons of the system.
If you think about it, Socialism is a system dedicated to the rights of workers and economic/social equality. It also emphasizes government regulation and workers cooperatives, and it sets up universal healthcare and public colleges.

If you are against Socialism, express your deal breaker calmly and explain. I know this stuff causes tempers to flair, so let's try to have a pleasant debate.

Of the choices, I voted pipe dream although I don't believe that to be necessarily true. More like an idea doomed to fail.

There are very few successful socialism experiments now or in the past. The dream goes against human nature.
 
However, Socialism in the right atmosphere will be very effective for a society. You think?

I don't think. As TD says, people are not altruistic. They will always take the line of least resistance if the outcome for all is equal.
 
I know that there are a lot of you who believe that Socialism is a ludicrous pipe dream, but I disagree.
I think that Socialism can be viable if it is gradually implemented and the people are educated in the pros and cons of the system.
If you think about it, Socialism is a system dedicated to the rights of workers and economic/social equality. It also emphasizes government regulation and workers cooperatives, and it sets up universal healthcare and public colleges.

If you are against Socialism, express your deal breaker calmly and explain. I know this stuff causes tempers to flair, so let's try to have a pleasant debate.

Its against basic human nature, thats why it cant work. Even if you could convince some people to go against their nature, it doesnt last because theyll eventually take advantage and create competition with the ideology. I suppose you could gradually implement brainwashing and eliminate dissenters to get you there, but I think that might just encourage rebellion and thus be counterproductive.

I dont see any reason it cant be tried somewhere soveriegn though. Pick an island, call it Cuba2, and let everyone who wants to give it a try, move there. So long as you dont harm the rest of the world, I dont see any reason to stop you.
 
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Agree 100% with you that disabled does not equal sloth. However, I also think there are varying levels of disabilities, and not all of those with any level of disabilities need to be given "support" in the sense of the government supporting your ability to live without working/minimal working.

SCitizen is of the mind that people with pretty much any "disability" (even ones he acknowledge aren't "provable"), for example "moderate depression", should simply be provided for nearly in full.

I have people in my life with mental health issues that absolutely do need varying levels of support; but they absolutely are fully capable of handling a job and not in need of the ability to completely live off the government. I myself have a physical ailment that is technically considered a disability by the government, but one that I'm able to manage with medication and the occasional sick day. As such I continue to work instead of sitting here thinking the government should simply just support me while I engage in little to no work. Nor do I really consider it a "disability", in relation to what I feel that word is truly referencing.

Absolutely, being disabled does not equate to sloth or lacking effort. HOWEVER, being disabled does not mean one is unable to engage in sloth or lack of effort either.

Not sure how things work there but here the Social Security Disability Support payment is designed to offer financial support for people who suffer from a physical, intellectual or psychiatric condition that prevents them from working. They are assessed by a medical professional, and if deemed to have a physical, intellectual or psychiatric impairment, are unable to work, or unable to be retrained to return to the workforce, for 15 hours or more per week, and they meet the income and assets tests, they are eligible.

As they should be.
 
I know that there are a lot of you who believe that Socialism is a ludicrous pipe dream, but I disagree.
I think that Socialism can be viable if it is gradually implemented and the people are educated in the pros and cons of the system.
If you think about it, Socialism is a system dedicated to the rights of workers and economic/social equality. It also emphasizes government regulation and workers cooperatives, and it sets up universal healthcare and public colleges.

If you are against Socialism, express your deal breaker calmly and explain. I know this stuff causes tempers to flair, so let's try to have a pleasant debate.

Why gradually?
 
The same questions may be asked of reasons to support and especially the level of support a citizen should be required to pay for those more challenged. It is no easy argument in a relativistic society like ours.

In relation to health related discussions, It's an easy answer. Who needs it the most gets it first. Irrespective of ethically irrelevant factors such as capacity to pay, social status, whether or not someone is considered "worthy" by others, race, religion, gender, maritial status, etc. Treatment should be available and offered on a needs alone basis to patients who need it the most first.
 
A balance making use of the strengths of socialism and capitalism, where one or the other is better suited to the overall benefit of society is the pragmatic approach. No one system is appropriate for all possible conditions.
 
I agree with a number of the posters, social democracy seems like an improved design in all respects.
Capitalism + government/social welfare, best of both worlds, and some amount of limits and checks on each other.

Marxism was just fantasy, its all just from Marx's imagination. Which is good, we need dreamers and hypothesis, that we can then test. Socialism and communism for that matter (regardless of whether or not you think it was done well) were tried and failed. Whether the ideal, implemented perfectly, can succeed or not, becomes irrelevant. If it's that dangerous to try, and its always failed, it's a failure IMO.

Meanwhile social democracies flourish around the world.

In some sense, socialism is something for nothing. If there was ever a greater detriment to human effort, work, and ingenuity, its not really having to engage those things to get a reward.
I think the U.S. needs more of the socialist side right now to balance things out. We're still madly focused on profit profit profit, and spend our best years in life working long hours for less and less of the GDP, with fewer vacations (if any), etc., than much of our peer nations. Life-work balance is a rare thing, I think it should be the norm. Someone people will choose to bust ass anyway,and they will get ahead, that's good, but the average should be IMO a lot more work life balance.
 
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I know that there are a lot of you who believe that Socialism is a ludicrous pipe dream, but I disagree.
I think that Socialism can be viable if it is gradually implemented and the people are educated in the pros and cons of the system.
If you think about it, Socialism is a system dedicated to the rights of workers and economic/social equality. It also emphasizes government regulation and workers cooperatives, and it sets up universal healthcare and public colleges.

If you are against Socialism, express your deal breaker calmly and explain. I know this stuff causes tempers to flair, so let's try to have a pleasant debate.

I am against socialism, I think it goes too far. I am a social democrat so I like some aspects of socialism but just like in the Netherlands I have issues with the socialist party. Their solutions are unworkable and go too far. Sure people should have safety nets and people who are unable to work should get a workable amount of money but not at the socialist levels IMO.

Taking from the rich to make a "better society" is OK up to a point. But people have to be rewarded for the work they do and in the Netherlands the socialist party forces everybody to give up their entire paycheck to then get paid by the party what the party thinks is OK. And that is socialism gone too far.

I do not want the government to be a mass employer and own numerous industries as is the norm in most socialist societies. I want companies that can be privatized to be privatized with government oversight to make sure the services we as a people should expect from our waterboards, electrical/energy companies, banks, public transport, healthcare, etc. etc. etc. is above board and in accordance with good governance, for the rest the government should stay out of that kinda thing.

The government should do what governments are the only ones allowed to do, like police, imprison people, give out passports, decides about building permits, etc. etc. etc.

I do not believe in minimal government, I do not believe in big government, I believe in effective and not overbearing government (where possible). I do not believe in capitalism gone wild but I also do not believe in socialism gone wild.

And I do not care that schools are not always public and I do not want to emphasize workers cooperatives. I like people to be start their own business, be their own bosses, be capitalist with a heart, and all that comes with it. I do not want to emphasize an overbearing and meddling government. And if workers want to start a business together fine, not an issue but I do not think this needs to be emphasized.
 
I know that there are a lot of you who believe that Socialism is a ludicrous pipe dream, but I disagree.
I think that Socialism can be viable if it is gradually implemented and the people are educated in the pros and cons of the system.
If you think about it, Socialism is a system dedicated to the rights of workers and economic/social equality. It also emphasizes government regulation and workers cooperatives, and it sets up universal healthcare and public colleges.

If you are against Socialism, express your deal breaker calmly and explain. I know this stuff causes tempers to flair, so let's try to have a pleasant debate.
Socialism does more than just your third sentence. It essentially sets up guarantees on all resources, not just the few you mentioned.

Thus that would include land space, dwelling space, road space, classroom availability, living-wage job availability, free time from work time, oh, and of course, breathable air and drinkable water and hospitable temperature and food items ... don't forget the long lines in the old Soviet Union just to obtain a loaf of bread ...

Now, you may argue that what I just detailed is what you meant by economic/social equality .. and I'd let you win that argument without an argument.

However, the reality of all these economic/social equality details is, obviously, that all these resources must be available (again, refer to previous "lines" reference).

And thus, there is a conversion-from-capitalism-to-socialism prerequisite that is non-negotiable in order to successfully implement socialism: the ratio of resources to population must be considerably greater than 1.00.

Today, that ratio is considerably under 1.00, and thus any attempt to implement socialism, even over time, will have a "revolting" effect.

Even with a respecting age-before-beauty or youth-will-be-served deciding guidance on the many various resource shortages, there could be just as many people doing without .. or more .. than there are with capitalism now.

Since many of the foundational resources are limited simply due to finite space on Earth, the only thing we can do to increase the relevant ratio is to manage the population .. meaning, greatly decrease it.

We have a long way to go to decrease the global and U.S. population. Why, even with today's "emphasis" on keeping family-size down, the world's population continues to increase and so does the U.S. population, the U.S. population continuing to increase despite all the Boomers dying off more rapidly these days.

Yes, in 2010 it was estimated that, even with all the hope for population management, that by the current rate of population rate decrease, that rate will still be greater than zero .. and by 2100 we will have added to the planet since 2010 the 2010 population of China and India combined. People are already painfully squished into our nation's cities -- I can't imagine it getting any worse.

One of the arguments against Capitalism is that it sets up arbitrary "capitalist game" rules that determine who eats and how well and who doesn't with all the population-to-resource limitations and few psyches are archetypally conditioned to really succeed at it. But with the planet's and our nation's current over-population, the "socialist game" will also have to make that same decision, and it won't matter to those doing without if the decision factors are "more humane". And, strangely enough, most would rather have the faceless, nameless, humanless system of capitalism decide than a "take it more personally" socialistic set of humans arbitrarily deciding who gets what and who doesn't -- it hurts more when fellow humans do it than otherwise, thanks to unresolved family-of-origin damage/dysfunction suffered by the vast majority of people that gets thereby "triggered" to the degree it's painfully felt.

Socialism may be a laudable ideal, but it's presently an impractical reality.

No one wants to convert from one bad system to another .. or to one that looks like it could be worse.

Let's first work on the prerequisite of getting the resource to population ratio considerably less than 1.00 for all resources, especially for the finite resources of hospitable land, breathable air, drinkable water, eatable-palatable food, and the like.

Then we can talk about the possibility of socialism.

Indeed, once we get that ratio a bit below 1.00, capitalism itself will begin to fold like a house of cards from natural causes.
 
I agree with a number of the posters, social democracy seems like an improved design in all respects.
Capitalism + government/social welfare, best of both worlds, and some amount of limits and checks on each other.

Marxism was just fantasy, its all just from Marx's imagination. Which is good, we need dreamers and hypothesis, that we can then test. Socialism and communism for that matter (regardless of whether or not you think it was done well) were tried and failed. Whether the ideal, implemented perfectly, can succeed or not, becomes irrelevant. If it's that dangerous to try, and its always failed, it's a failure IMO.

Meanwhile social democracies flourish around the world.

In some sense, socialism is something for nothing. If there was ever a greater detriment to human effort, work, and ingenuity, its not really having to engage those things to get a reward.
I think the U.S. needs more of the socialist side right now to balance things out. We're still madly focused on profit profit profit, and spend our best years in life working long hours for less and less of the GDP, with fewer vacations (if any), etc., than much of our peer nations. Life-work balance is a rare thing, I think it should be the norm. Someone people will choose to bust ass anyway,and they will get ahead, that's good, but the average should be IMO a lot more work life balance.

Social democracy is just totalitarianism through voting. Instead of forcing people to share the wealth with guns, they have 51% of the population vote away everyone elses stuff (and enforce it with guns). Would it still work if they had to actually get consent from everyone? Would we have the great society or welfare or obamacare if they actually followed the law and got 3/4 of the states to agree to it?
 
It's the form of government loved by the wealth redistribution crowd.

Well that is the reality of it. They benefit. Or they think they do. The tax rates are much higher in those nations. Maybe they are on to something though? Maybe some people aren't responsible enough to handle their own finances? But seriously...


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Isn't their socialism primarily funded by their oil industry?


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It's funded with capitalism and oil, not to mention those are ethnically homogeneous societies.

Most socialism initially is funded with capitalism anyway, that's why it does so well initially. Socialism is for people who are fiscally retarded and can't defer gratification.
 
Social democracy is just totalitarianism through voting. Instead of forcing people to share the wealth with guns, they have 51% of the population vote away everyone elses stuff (and enforce it with guns). Would it still work if they had to actually get consent from everyone? Would we have the great society or welfare or obamacare if they actually followed the law and got 3/4 of the states to agree to it?
You imagine limits like 3/4 state agreement, why can you not have social democracy with limits. Not really a question is it, we can, and do, and will.

We have that largely now, it's just that corporate interests have more of that control, than the people. Not surprising, look how fast people gave up their information privacy...to corporations. You think people protect themselves? Government on the other hand, had all sorts of protections in place for you and me, from government and from other people, in how they had to get court approval and show mal intent to get your phone tapped.

Now? They can monitor all your internet activity likely with no warrant *at all*. That's because government is just a tool of people, just like a corporation is a tool, neither are inherently good or bad, and both need to be used wisely but the people that wield them.
 
I agree with a number of the posters, social democracy seems like an improved design in all respects.
Capitalism + government/social welfare, best of both worlds, and some amount of limits and checks on each other.

Marxism was just fantasy, its all just from Marx's imagination. Which is good, we need dreamers and hypothesis, that we can then test. Socialism and communism for that matter (regardless of whether or not you think it was done well) were tried and failed. Whether the ideal, implemented perfectly, can succeed or not, becomes irrelevant. If it's that dangerous to try, and its always failed, it's a failure IMO.

Meanwhile social democracies flourish around the world.

In some sense, socialism is something for nothing. If there was ever a greater detriment to human effort, work, and ingenuity, its not really having to engage those things to get a reward.
I think the U.S. needs more of the socialist side right now to balance things out. We're still madly focused on profit profit profit, and spend our best years in life working long hours for less and less of the GDP, with fewer vacations (if any), etc., than much of our peer nations. Life-work balance is a rare thing, I think it should be the norm. Someone people will choose to bust ass anyway,and they will get ahead, that's good, but the average should be IMO a lot more work life balance.

This in a nutshell.

Hard socialism as in the nationalized industry envisioned by Marx and communist revolutionaries is indeed a pipedream, at least as technology currently stands; centrally managed and controlled economies simply won't work until you have an algorithm that can impartially allocate resources in real time nearly as or more efficiently than capitalism with all manners of safeguards, and arbitrary limiters per the desires of the populace; despite massive strides forward in AI development, computer science and hardware, this is still a very long way off (and that's assuming people, notoriously corruptible as they are, can be trusted to develop such an honest actor algo).

The soft socialism of social democracy? Much more successful and more than viable. It uniformly results in better standards of living for the average person, longer lives, and a happier, more fulfilled populace, and its results by and large speak for themselves. People who argue that it can only work in homogenous societies invariably fail to provide evidence for this and ignore the fundamental truism that correlation is not causation.
 
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