Would you support a rehabilitative incarceration system?

[Masterhawk]

Norway's incarceration system is a little different from the US. Its incarceration system focuses more on rehabilitation and reintegration than on punishment and discipline. Individuals may not be sentenced more than 25 years including murder. This may sound like a recipe for disaster but out of 218 countries, Norway had the 12th lowest homicide rate (0.6) while the US was in 108th place (3.9) with more than six times the murder rate of Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Norway also imprisoned 70 out of 100,000 while the US did 693.

Why Norway's prison system is so successful - Business Insider

 

[Crovax]

Norway's incarceration system is a little different from the US. Its incarceration system focuses more on rehabilitation and reintegration than on punishment and discipline. Individuals may not be sentenced more than 25 years including murder. This may sound like a recipe for disaster but out of 218 countries, Norway had the 12th lowest homicide rate (0.6) while the US was in 108th place (3.9) with more than six times the murder rate of Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Norway also imprisoned 70 out of 100,000 while the US did 693.

Why Norway's prison system is so successful - Business Insider

Norway's system works for them because the have a very homogeneous population and culture.

 

[SCitizen]

I would support it 100%! USA has the highest incarceration rate in the World.

 

[DA60]

Well, Norway has a VERY high standard of living...which helps. And their oil - which largely paid for this - is running out. Let's see how great their standard of living is when their sugar Daddy buried off of their coast runs dry. Let's see what their crime rate does then (though I doubt it will rise to anywhere near America's).

But I can tell you right now how to drastically improve the American prison system...NEVER, EVER LET INMATES TALK TO EACH OTHER. Right now, American prisons are simply Crime Universities. Want to learn how to be a better criminal? Spend time with other criminals.
Also, most people do not like being alone. Remove all social norms that are in prison and the time will seem to go much longer and harsher. I don't mean throw them in a hole with no windows. Just put them in a normal cell without any chance to talk to other criminals.
I spent a little time in prison (for a non-violent crime) and I can tell you that most prisoners would find it far more unpleasant if they had to be alone all the time (minus conversations with the outside world). This would definitely be an incentive to not go back once they are released.


I think another problem is sentences - they are MUCH too short for violent crimes and MUCH too long for non-violent ones.
Bill Clinton's three-strikes-you're-out law was absolutely stupid and has - imo - done nothing but hurt America.
Violent criminals should know that if they commit a violent crime that they WILL spend a TON of time in jail. For instance, if you commit first degree rape - you should be in jail for 10 years minimum...no matter what - parole, good behavior, whatever.
Now? There are so many ways to get a sentence down that few violent criminals are going to see truly hard time....and they know it. Make sentences more cut-and-dry...less flexible.

And as for rehabilitation? While in prison? For violent criminals? Forget it. For non-violent ones? Sure.

Violent criminals are usually - in my experience - REALLY messed up people. The effort would be wasted on most of them. My experience has been that either you are capable of brutality or you or not.
Some of them could be rehabilitated. But I personally think the vast majority - especially the repeat, violent offenders - cannot.

So, to sum up. My ideas are 100% solitary confinement, MUCH longer sentences for violent crimes and MUCH shorter ones for non-violent ones (throw a non-violent criminal into a prison and almost guaranteed he will come out a much harder criminal) and finally do not waste taxpayer money on rehabilitation of violent criminals - especially repeat offenders.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Yeah, I would support it.

The 25 year maximum gives me pause. But after that long you really aren't even punishing the same person who commited the crime, so maybe it isn't as wild an idea as it sounds.

 

[DA60]

Norway's system works for them because the have a very homogeneous population and culture.

Utter nonsense.

Canada is more culturally diverse than America (statistically) and they have a FAR lower crime rate than America.

That 'one culture/one race is desirable' talk is just xenophobic-like gobbledygook, imo.

Though I am quite sure the KKK would strongly agree with you.

 

[Crovax]

Utter nonsense.

Canada is more culturally diverse than America (statistically) and they have a FAR lower crime rate than America.

That 'one culture/one race is desirable' talk is just xenophobic-like gobbledygook, imo.

Though I am quite sure the KKK would strongly agree with you.

No they aren't, Canada is 20% minority and the US is 40%

Edit: even take a state like Texas which might have different ethnicities but still have a shared Texan culture the crime rate is lower in most of the big texas cities than the other big cities around the country

Being interconnected to a community whether it is ethnicity or culture matters a whole lot as far as crime and recidivism.

 

[Surrealistik]

No they aren't, Canada is 20% minority and the US is 40%

Edit: even take a state like Texas which might have different ethnicities but still have a shared Texan culture the crime rate is lower in most of the big texas cities than the other big cities around the country

Being interconnected to a community whether it is ethnicity or culture matters a whole lot as far as crime and recidivism.

According to what studies?

Honduras, El Salvador, Jamaica, Guatemala, Venezuela, Trinidad and Tobago, and various sundry South American/Caribbean/African cities feature homogeneous populations and are some of the most violent and crime ridden places on earth.

By contrast, diverse, cosmopolitan cities like Toronto, London, Singapore, Vancouver, Paris, San Francisco and even NYC meanwhile feature low/extremely low crime rates. Poverty, corruption, quality of law enforcement, standards of living and economic opportunity are far stronger factors in determining crime rates.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Norway's incarceration system is a little different from the US. Its incarceration system focuses more on rehabilitation and reintegration than on punishment and discipline. Individuals may not be sentenced more than 25 years including murder. This may sound like a recipe for disaster but out of 218 countries, Norway had the 12th lowest homicide rate (0.6) while the US was in 108th place (3.9) with more than six times the murder rate of Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Norway also imprisoned 70 out of 100,000 while the US did 693.

Why Norway's prison system is so successful - Business Insider

Norway doesn't have the diversity in cultures, or the problems, that breed criminality like we have here in the US. Their process is of course worth exploring and integrating parts where it can be potentially effective. But, it's not going to work here en masse.

 

[DA60]

Norway doesn't have the diversity in cultures, or the problems, that breed criminality like we have here in the US. Their process is of course worth exploring and integrating parts where it can be potentially effective. But, it's not going to work here en masse.

Utter nonsense.

Canada is more culturally diverse than America (statistically) and they have a FAR lower crime rate than America.

That 'one culture/one race is desirable' talk is just xenophobic-like gobbledygook, imo.

Though I am quite sure the KKK would strongly agree with you.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Utter nonsense.

Canada is more culturally diverse than America (statistically) and they have a FAR lower crime rate than America.

That 'one culture/one race is desirable' talk is just xenophobic-like gobbledygook, imo.

Though I am quite sure the KKK would strongly agree with you.

How dare you compare me to the KKK.

I didn't say anything about "one race" or "one culture" and I will stop here before I get banned.

 

[DA60]

How dare you compare me to the KKK.

I didn't say anything about "one race" or "one culture" and I will stop here before I get banned.

:roll:

I simply stated that the position you have taken on this would - imo - please the KKK. As I believe they take the position that the reason for most of America's problems - including crime - is that there are too many races/cultures.
You said: 'Norway doesn't have the diversity in cultures, or the problems, that breed criminality like we have here in the US.'
So, naturally, I believe that your position on this subject would please the KKK as you seem to be stating - like they do - that the cause of America's high crime rate is largely do to excessive racial and/or cultural diversity.

If I am wrong on this - and you/someone can prove this - I will apologize.

However, I HIGHLY doubt I am wrong on this.


If, in future, you do not want me to mention the KKK in reference to your statements....than I suggest you do not take positions that coincide with their well known and established goals/ideals.


Have a nice day.

 

[celticwar17]

Short answer... no not like Norway...

long answer... I think prisons are doing it all wrong... alll wrong... Why make the prison some kind of hell of masculinity? Every... single...prison... should be painted like a preschool... Rainbow and unicorns everywhere, happy fun candy land... A Barney I love you song playing 24/7 in the background... The only method of entertainment would be children's shows with good morals. Solitary confinement should have Barney music 24/7...
All inmates wear pink, have special days for coloring and finger painting, and are treated like children and go to "timeout" if they do something bad.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Norway's incarceration system is a little different from the US. Its incarceration system focuses more on rehabilitation and reintegration than on punishment and discipline. Individuals may not be sentenced more than 25 years including murder. This may sound like a recipe for disaster but out of 218 countries, Norway had the 12th lowest homicide rate (0.6) while the US was in 108th place (3.9) with more than six times the murder rate of Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Norway also imprisoned 70 out of 100,000 while the US did 693.

Why Norway's prison system is so successful - Business Insider

It can also be economics. That USA for several reasons want to have longer and more prison sentences compared to most other developed countries. While at the same time don’t want to pay the extra cost for that.

So, there are less money to rehabilitation and a decent environment and prisoners can continue doing crimes against each other inside the prison. While countries with less prisoners can spend more money on rehabilitation and prevent recidivism. That it’s not only Norway but also the other Scandinavian countries that have lower recidivism rate.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/

Also, as you wrote it can be that USA focus more on punishment instead of rehabilitation. That other countries that focus more on rehabilitation like Australia and Singapore have also lot lower recidivism rate.

Prisoner Rehabilitation Around the World

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Many of our prison are ran for profit with a motive to incarcerate for as long as possible.

 

[ocean515]

Norway's incarceration system is a little different from the US. Its incarceration system focuses more on rehabilitation and reintegration than on punishment and discipline. Individuals may not be sentenced more than 25 years including murder. This may sound like a recipe for disaster but out of 218 countries, Norway had the 12th lowest homicide rate (0.6) while the US was in 108th place (3.9) with more than six times the murder rate of Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Norway also imprisoned 70 out of 100,000 while the US did 693.

Why Norway's prison system is so successful - Business Insider

If there was any evidence rehabilitation would work in the United States, I would support trying to make a run at it again.

As it is, this effort was tried before and it failed to provide the results that were hoped for.

I don't see a magic pill on the horizon, so I think it would be a waste of time and energy to make a more formal approach.

 

[code1211]

Norway's incarceration system is a little different from the US. Its incarceration system focuses more on rehabilitation and reintegration than on punishment and discipline. Individuals may not be sentenced more than 25 years including murder. This may sound like a recipe for disaster but out of 218 countries, Norway had the 12th lowest homicide rate (0.6) while the US was in 108th place (3.9) with more than six times the murder rate of Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Norway also imprisoned 70 out of 100,000 while the US did 693.

Why Norway's prison system is so successful - Business Insider

What is the demographic composition of the Norwegian population?

 

[_Sal]

I believe that prison needs to balance punishment with rehabilitation.

You can not treat a person as less than human existing in poor living conditions with limited interaction with society, then release them into that society expecting them to have developed empathy, social skills and the ability to support themselves and function well.

It is akin to training animals to kill and then releasing them into a herd of sheep and expecting they will fit in well and all with thrive.

Under those conditions the rate of recidivism will always be high. It is too costly both economically and emotionally to society.

Also, many of these crimes could be prevented before hand. Educate a child and support them well now or pay for their incarceration for life after their behaviour has had a major negative impact upon the society by creating multiple victims.

Even minor crime creates multiple victims.

 

[haymarket]

I believe that prison needs to balance punishment with rehabilitation.

You can not treat a person as less than human existing in poor living conditions with limited interaction with society, then release them into that society expecting them to have developed empathy, social skills and the ability to support themselves and function well.

It is akin to training animals to kill and then releasing them into a herd of sheep and expecting they will fit in well and all with thrive.

Under those conditions the rate of recidivism will always be high. It is too costly both economically and emotionally to society.

Also, many of these crimes could be prevented before hand. Educate a child and support them well now or pay for their incarceration for life after their behaviour has had a major negative impact upon the society by creating multiple victims.

Even minor crime creates multiple victims.

Our current prison system is a failure for the most part - especially for those considered violent or dangerous enough for maximum security. Too many only learn to become even more anti-societal and more violent and more prone to a life of crime if and when they get out.

I would favor a radical change of either
1 - massive amounts of money being infused into the system for true education, job training and rehabilitation, or
2- get rid of all the extras and just have people in individual cells kneeling on a line for 12 hours a day as their job and cut out the lifting weights and socializing and all the other stuff that goes on.

Or maybe separate the wheat from the chaff and adopt both as separate programs for different individuals deepening on if they are judged worthy or not.

 

[Gaius46]

Norway's system works for them because the have a very homogeneous population and culture.

You say that like it's a given. I've seen nothing to back up that assertion.

 

[DaveFagan]

Many of our prison are ran for profit with a motive to incarcerate for as long as possible.

The USA has many Corporate owned prisons and those prisons have contracts with the gov't that they have to have 96 or 98% occupancy. They get paid about $125.00 per day per each Federal prisoner. Very profitable, ergo, Corporate would find it good business to lobby for more laws against more things and longer sentences. That's the Corporate climate of USA politics. Prisons are good business, so put more people in jail. Rehabilitation would cut into the profits, don't ya' know? The cozy relationship or fascism between the USA gov't and Corporations screws up everything. Drug laws that increase prices for healthcare, but generate gargantuan profits for Big Corporate Pharma. Criminal laws that protect Monsanto from liability. Laws that protect large Corporate Energy generators, nukes etc., and prevent renewable energy proliferation. It goes on and on. Government by and for the Corporations, not government by and for the people.
/
/

 

[jamesrage]

Norway's incarceration system is a little different from the US. Its incarceration system focuses more on rehabilitation and reintegration than on punishment and discipline. Individuals may not be sentenced more than 25 years including murder. This may sound like a recipe for disaster but out of 218 countries, Norway had the 12th lowest homicide rate (0.6) while the US was in 108th place (3.9) with more than six times the murder rate of Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Norway also imprisoned 70 out of 100,000 while the US did 693.

Why Norway's prison system is so successful - Business Insider

You mean should our prisons be dormitories instead of actual prisons and 1st degree murders get to walk after 25 years? **** no. The whole point of sending someone to prison is to punish for a crime they committed. 1st degree murderers should never be let out of prison(unless there is rare extenuating circumstances) and if possible they should be executed.Mass murderers should never see the light of day outside of prison and should be executed. We are not Norway and I am pretty sure there people in Norway asking what **** is wrong with the retards who enacted a 25 year max sentence and turned the prisons into dormitories.

 

[_Sal]

Our current prison system is a failure for the most part - especially for those considered violent or dangerous enough for maximum security. Too many only learn to become even more anti-societal and more violent and more prone to a life of crime if and when they get out.

I would favor a radical change of either
1 - massive amounts of money being infused into the system for true education, job training and rehabilitation, or
2- get rid of all the extras and just have people in individual cells kneeling on a line for 12 hours a day as their job and cut out the lifting weights and socializing and all the other stuff that goes on.

Or maybe separate the wheat from the chaff and adopt both as separate programs for different individuals deepening on if they are judged worthy or not.

how would the latter (in bold) help either the criminal or society? and how is treating someone via daily torture acceptable?

 

[_Sal]

The USA has many Corporate owned prisons and those prisons have contracts with the gov't that they have to have 96 or 98% occupancy. They get paid about $125.00 per day per each Federal prisoner. Very profitable, ergo, Corporate would find it good business to lobby for more laws against more things and longer sentences. That's the Corporate climate of USA politics. Prisons are good business, so put more people in jail. Rehabilitation would cut into the profits, don't ya' know? The cozy relationship or fascism between the USA gov't and Corporations screws up everything. Drug laws that increase prices for healthcare, but generate gargantuan profits for Big Corporate Pharma. Criminal laws that protect Monsanto from liability. Laws that protect large Corporate Energy generators, nukes etc., and prevent renewable energy proliferation. It goes on and on. Government by and for the Corporations, not government by and for the people.
/
/

just sad

 

[molten_dragon]

For a lot of crimes, I think that would be a good idea.

Some crimes however I don't think you can be rehabilitated from. So I don't agree with the 25 year maximum sentence.