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The Danger of Being Neighborly Without a Permit

Is this a legit way for our local governments to spend their time and energy?

  • Total voters
    19
radcen said:
I've seen some of these small free libraries. It would never occur to me that a local government would object... but some do. Is this a legit way for our local governments to spend their time and energy?
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I do believe that I would've given my neighbor something to really be pissed about.
 
Fishking said:
How about I actually put forth my efforts to push against statism. Mainstream Democrats and Republicans can push their agendas but no one else is allowed?
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Go ahead. Let us all know when you're actually successful, won't you?
 
Cephus said:
Go ahead. Let us all know when you're actually successful, won't you?
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Look at you being a good follower. Seems like our country has a long history of many societal and governmental changes. Libertarian ideas are more popular today than they've been pretty much ever. They are pooling from both the left and right so the future is looking OK.
 
Fishking said:
Look at you being a good follower. Seems like our country has a long history of many societal and governmental changes. Libertarian ideas are more popular today than they've been pretty much ever. They are pooling from both the left and right so the future is looking OK.
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You're just being a critic of the government, and I agree there are plenty of things to be critical of, but you have no means of actually making a difference or changing a thing. Idealism for the sake of being idealistic is pointless.
 
Cephus said:
You're just being a critic of the government, and I agree there are plenty of things to be critical of, but you have no means of actually making a difference or changing a thing. Idealism for the sake of being idealistic is pointless.
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That's what voting is for and that's what spreading various ideology helps with. Somehow systemic changes like women's suffrage was passed and somehow I'm supposed to believe that strengthening private property rights is unattainable? I don't think so.
 
Fishking said:
That changes nothing I stated. It's an overreach and having a little cubby for free books doesn't represent a public health or safety risk. Back to my original statement, "so long as it's not a hazard that extends outside of their property".

I understand that there are many people who find it difficult to keep their hands, via a government proxy, out of other people's affairs.
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Not really, at all. Building codes are for health and safety reasons. If it violates the code, it is a potential hazard.
 
Fishking said:
That's what voting is for and that's what spreading various ideology helps with. Somehow systemic changes like women's suffrage was passed and somehow I'm supposed to believe that strengthening private property rights is unattainable? I don't think so.
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Yes it is and frankly, I have no idea how these laws got on the books and I suspect you don't either, so it's all just opinion. I'm all in favor of you changing the law through the legally described processes if you can. I'm just not holding my breath.
 
Absentglare said:
Not really, at all. Building codes are for health and safety reasons. If it violates the code, it is a potential hazard.
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Yeah...all those deaths from free book cubbies. Look at this dangerous piece of work. Oh the humanity!

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Cephus said:
Yes it is and frankly, I have no idea how these laws got on the books and I suspect you don't either, so it's all just opinion. I'm all in favor of you changing the law through the legally described processes if you can. I'm just not holding my breath.
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Ah...you're taking the more fatalistic view of it. Yeah, I can understand that. I think there is are two growing trends happening right now. Libertarianism is growing and attracting people from both sides of the political spectrum and then there is growing left-wing authoritarianism.

The only thing I can say is that local officials and laws are much more easily changed by the concerted effort of a few than at the national level.
 
Fishking said:
Ah...you're taking the more fatalistic view of it. Yeah, I can understand that. I think there is are two growing trends happening right now. Libertarianism is growing and attracting people from both sides of the political spectrum and then there is growing left-wing authoritarianism.

The only thing I can say is that local officials and laws are much more easily changed by the concerted effort of a few than at the national level.
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You be sure to let us know when you get any libertarians elected to the Presidency, won't you?
 
Cephus said:
You be sure to let us know when you get any libertarians elected to the Presidency, won't you?
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You don't have to to effect local change. It's not the federal government banning something so simple as a free book nook.
 
Fishking said:
You don't have to to effect local change. It's not the federal government banning something so simple as a free book nook.
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No, it's not. It's a single town that has chosen, not had it imposed, but chosen to do so. So why is it any of your business if you don't live there?
 
Cephus said:
No, it's not. It's a single town that has chosen, not had it imposed, but chosen to do so. So why is it any of your business if you don't live there?
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Trends.
 
Fishking said:
Trends.
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That still doesn't make it your business, except as a curiousity. If you don't like it, make sure that you convince the majority of people in your neighborhood not to pass similar laws. Good luck on that.
 
Fishking said:
Yeah...all those deaths from free book cubbies. Look at this dangerous piece of work. Oh the humanity!

View attachment 67216458
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Why don't you ask the people who file complaints?

"... you can't do anything that might block emergency vehicle access, obstruct motorists' views, impede pedestrians or make it hard to open car doors."

The lawful route is to apply for a permit by demonstrating that these won't apply. Then, you have a permit, even though it's still a quasi-business running out of a residential property.
 
Cephus said:
Then the people can overturn it. Let's see if they do.
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Again not likely given most people aren't single issue voters and even if they were building codes are a single to generate much passion except in those who feel they've gotten screwed by them. Which again is why we have courts and why one of their functions is curtail executive and legislative overreach.

Though in reality probably nothing happens at all.
 
Cephus said:
That still doesn't make it your business, except as a curiousity. If you don't like it, make sure that you convince the majority of people in your neighborhood not to pass similar laws. Good luck on that.
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You don't wait for trends to progress to the point where it effects you. It's not that complicated.
 
Fishking said:
You don't wait for trends to progress to the point where it effects you. It's not that complicated.
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Just how many communities are having their mini-libraries shut down again?
 
Cephus said:
Just how many communities are having their mini-libraries shut down again?
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It's not this, specifically, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of property rights. It could be this mini-library, it could be front-yard gardens, it takes many forms. Honestly, it's very simple. I don't know why you're struggling. If don't care about it then don't. That's your choice.
 
Absentglare said:
Why don't you ask the people who file complaints?

"... you can't do anything that might block emergency vehicle access, obstruct motorists' views, impede pedestrians or make it hard to open car doors."

The lawful route is to apply for a permit by demonstrating that these won't apply. Then, you have a permit, even though it's still a quasi-business running out of a residential property.
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Yeah, it definitely looks like that cubby is blocking emergency vehicles.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Yeah, it definitely looks like that cubby is blocking emergency vehicles.
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Irrelevant. You cannot, for example, even simply dig in your yard in many cities- this is because you are expected to survey in case of underground utilities.

We cannot simply do whatever we want in isolation, we must be balanced against all other needs. The burden is on the individual to comply with the requirements of the city.
 
Absentglare said:
Irrelevant. You cannot, for example, even simply dig in your yard in many cities- this is because you are expected to survey in case of underground utilities.

We cannot simply do whatever we want in isolation, we must be balanced against all other needs. The burden is on the individual to comply with the requirements of the city.
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That's the problem, the cities require far too much when there is no real danger to anyone. this is not like digging in your yard when a gas line is there. and most of these permits are not for the public good, they're purely a money making venture, like a friend of mine who got a stop work order on installing a new porchlight, and he went and paid for the permit and they took down the stop work order, they never inspected his work or reviewed his wiring plans or whatever, they took his check and application, that was all. these things are about $afety, not safety.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Well, now wait a minute. I don't know if someone's already said this, but sometimes there are real reasons to regulate something that aren't so obvious. For example, some of these might have been obstructing sight lines for traffic. Leaving them up might have led to dangerous traffic conditions that could cause injury or death, and this is one reason for regulating detached structures. It's not a huge media meme right now, but that sort of thing does happen--a driver cannot see the running children, gets distracted, makes a turn, and boom, a couple of funerals that could have been prevented if ordinances had been followed.

Of course, sometimes, that's not the story, and it really is someone sticking their nose in where they don't belong. For example, there are a great many cities that have (usually unenforced) laws that prevent people growing their own food--brought to you by lobbyists of the corporate agriculture and grocery industry.
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*IF* it it causing a legitimate hazard, then yes, of course that should be addressed. But if that is the case, that would be absurdly easy to document and very specifically justify. Vague safety rationalizations by some bureaucrat waving his hand as if they're doing Jedi mind tricks to convince others of their actions shouldn't be enough.
 
Absentglare said:
Irrelevant. You cannot, for example, even simply dig in your yard in many cities- this is because you are expected to survey in case of underground utilities.

We cannot simply do whatever we want in isolation, we must be balanced against all other needs. The burden is on the individual to comply with the requirements of the city.
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Cities do not preclude you from digging in your own yard as a blanket code, they simply require checking with the proper utility location services *first*, and that is a legitimate safety concern. Once utility locations have been marked, you're clear to dig.

Now, to be fair, it is certainly possible that many people who put up these mini-libraries did not do that, so their procedure might be in error, but that does not relate in any way to the concept of the existence of mini-libraries.
 
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