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Do you support affirmative action?

Do you support affirmative action?

  • yes, racial minorities are disadvantaged

    Votes: 13 19.7%

  • yes but it should be based on income, not race

    Votes: 8 12.1%

  • no

    Votes: 43 65.2%

  • not sure

    Votes: 2 3.0%
  • Total voters
    66
Cephus said:
They don't want education. If they did, inner city schools wouldn't have a near 50% drop out rate. Higher education is, like everything else worthwhile, something that you need to earn. The time for these opportunities is not when you're graduating high school, you have to prove that you've got the chops while you're still in high school. That way, when it comes to college admissions, the best get in and skin color and gender are not even taken into account. There needs to be a competition for college slots, where the best of the best get into the best schools and if you didn't do well in high school, you probably don't belong. After all, how many minority-only scholarships are there out there? Tons. How many for white kids? None. So long as those scholarships are privately funded, that's fine. but AA is government sponsored and having the government engaged in out-and-out racism is absurd. If you want to go to college, earn it. Don't make excuses.

Affirmative action is all about racial quotas, what are you talking about? The whole point is to maximize equality of outcome, which is a fundamentally leftist idea. It ensures that as many black people or women or gay people or whatever your particular bugaboo might be get to go to college, that's why colleges have more female students than male students these days and why there are so many female-only scholarships It exists to promote a political agenda. That's the reality.
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Yeah, if someone isn't highly motivated and at their maturity peak at 14 let's throw them out with the garbage = conservative values

I'm white and didn't need scholarships because the college (and the fed) bases grant $ on financial need only. You're just speaking like another oblivious spoonfed type who never had to worry about financing his goals in life

And for god sakes i've never heard of AA being used to benefit women or gay people. In fact, being gay and facing many obstacles because of it, i knew that the 'atoning for societal prejudices' defense of AA was total crap - because it typically only benefits blacks, hispanics, and natives. And yes, white people too, at places like Harvard where they limit the # of asians to a far greater degree. In other words, with complete disregard for the individual's obstacles. The whole point is not to maximize equality but to *pretend* to care about equality. These ivory tower admins don't give a damn in reality. It's why Harvard takes wealthy black kids from prep schools. I feel like you're just throwing out limbaugh talking points so that even when we agree it's for different reasons

As for more women (like 51%) at college, it's a product of fewer men giving a damn about grades, and also the military and trade work path. There are even programs, such as nursing, where male applicants are given an edge.
 
Cephus said:
What, Bernie Sanders wasn't running on the Democrat ticket now? When did that get retroactively changed? And no, the Republicans won't, and shouldn't. Neither should the Democrats, but they're the party of free stuff, so it makes sense that they will push the agenda of their favored demographics because it gets them votes from those demographics.
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right, as if the brats of the 1% going to their finishing schools don't get free stuff. Sanders was also an anamoly, so far


Cephus said:
Then these people need to work hard enough to qualify for entry into college, don't they?
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to avoid having to take out $30-50k in loans for college, you need damn near perfect grades. That possibility is patently shot by 10th grade for many = time to drop out or if their parents won't let them, to get high in the bathroom stall and barely pass their classes. Taking out $30-50k in this economy is a damn huge risk, and it's why many colleges are going bankrupt


Cephus said:
And your claim is nonsense, the reason they don't finish high school is because in the poor black community, education isn't valued.
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That's also part of it, yes, and that's why Obama made his comment about "aspire to be more than rappers and ball players" Then there's the violence that makes learning difficult regardless of values


Cephus said:
You can look at poor Hispanics or poor Asians or poor whites and they don't have anywhere near the drop-out rates as poor blacks do, nor do they have the out-of-wedlock pregnancy rates, nor the prison rates that blacks do.
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Another denial of reality. Poor blacks more than the other groups have to be 'man of the house' and look after their siblings and such and once you realize your future is screwed, you take to selling drugs or gangs or whatever you gotta do to survive for the moment. That's something rural white kids don't have to deal with, however poor. For one, because there's no $ in it


Cephus said:
This isn't because of racism, this is because they have adopted a fundamentally harmful cultural identity that makes them act in self-harming ways. Nobody holds a gun to their heads and makes them join gangs or do drugs or commit crimes. They do it because that's what their sub-culture tells them is acceptable. Poor whites and Hispanics and Asians have no more money to go to college than poor blacks, yet finish high school at a much, much higher rate.
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Why the hell can't you admit it's both? And even their culture could be easily displaced if only they weren't living in the ghetto
 
chromium said:
Yeah, if someone isn't highly motivated and at their maturity peak at 14 let's throw them out with the garbage = conservative values
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Actions, or in this case lack of actions, have consequences. Deal with it.

I'm white and didn't need scholarships because the college (and the fed) bases grant $ on financial need only. You're just speaking like another oblivious spoonfed type who never had to worry about financing his goals in life
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Whereas I worked my ass off and paid for my college 100% out of my own pocket. Whether you *need* scholarships or not, I certainly qualified for several, even though I didn't go to those particular schools. Scholarships are based on scholastic performance.

And for god sakes i've never heard of AA being used to benefit women or gay people. In fact, being gay and facing many obstacles because of it, i knew that the 'atoning for societal prejudices' defense of AA was total crap - because it typically only benefits blacks, hispanics, and natives. And yes, white people too, at places like Harvard where they limit the # of asians to a far greater degree. In other words, with complete disregard for the individual's obstacles. The whole point is not to maximize equality but to *pretend* to care about equality. These ivory tower admins don't give a damn in reality. It's why Harvard takes wealthy black kids from prep schools. I feel like you're just throwing out limbaugh talking points so that even when we agree it's for different reasons
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I didn't say anything about AA and women or gay people. I said scholarships. And no, caring about "equality" is pointless. The best people ought to get in, regardless of all other factors. Nobody ought to care about the racial makeup of a school, or how many women vs. men, or how many gay people get in or anything else. Higher education is supposed to be about merit, not equality.

As for more women (like 51%) at college, it's a product of fewer men giving a damn about grades, and also the military and trade work path. There are even programs, such as nursing, where male applicants are given an edge.
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No, actually, it isn't. It's about highly liberal schools actively courting women and minorities so they can virtue signal like the rest of the idiot liberals.
 
TurtleDude said:
OF all the posters on this board, few of them's post ooze more envy than the ones you post. You assume that the children of the rich are all brats and your seething hatred of them is almost pathological. If you want to start with spoiled brats, you can start with some of the entitled children of leftwing politicians for example.

You should have opportunities but they shouldn't be at the expense of others. WE don't owe you something. We shouldn't have to pay more taxes to slake your hatred of the successful. And if you think your path to success comes from government handouts, you are doomed to fail
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I don't at all mind the spoiled brats, and even friends with some, who genuinely want there to be opportunities for all, and are willing to "sacrifice" their own handouts in life from mommy and daddy for that possibility. After all, they can no more help who they were born to than the poor. You are definitely not one of those who even theoretically, and without having to sacrifice a damn thing, wants opportunities for others however
 
chromium said:
right, as if the brats of the 1% going to their finishing schools don't get free stuff. Sanders was also an anamoly, so far
You really have a bizarre fixation on finishing schools, don't you? You should seek some professional help for that.

to avoid having to take out $30-50k in loans for college, you need damn near perfect grades. That possibility is patently shot by 10th grade for many = time to drop out or if their parents won't let them, to get high in the bathroom stall and barely pass their classes. Taking out $30-50k in this economy is a damn huge risk, and it's why many colleges are going bankrupt
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Hardly, but you keep telling yourself that. :roll:


That's also part of it, yes, and that's why Obama made his comment about "aspire to be more than rappers and ball players" Then there's the violence that makes learning difficult regardless of values
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Which, once again, doesn't happen nearly as much in poor Hispanic, Asian or white neighborhoods. So what is wrong with blacks that they have all of those issues? And no, don't go pointing fingers at everyone else, it's their own damn fault.

Another denial of reality. Poor blacks more than the other groups have to be 'man of the house' and look after their siblings and such and once you realize your future is screwed, you take to selling drugs or gangs or whatever you gotta do to survive for the moment. That's something rural white kids don't have to deal with, however poor. For one, because there's no $ in it
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Only because black families are far more likely to be broken than any other racial group. That's someone else's fault too, right?

Why the hell can't you admit it's both? And even their culture could be easily displaced if only they weren't living in the ghetto
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They are living in the ghetto because they are not living responsibly. If they gave priority to getting an education, to living a responsible life, to obeying the law and maintaining the family, more black people would be able to move out of the ghettos than do. People who live decent lives don't spend generations in poverty.
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Cephus said:
Hey, you're the one who complained. Apparently, you do that just to make noise.
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i complained that you frequently conflate these politicians with liberalism, yes. Very few of them represent my values yet you lump them together with your criticism of liberals. How about instead of using "public and private position" bland centrists like Hillary, who i despise as much as you, you find an actual liberal, or just stick to the topic
 
Cephus said:
Actions, or in this case lack of actions, have consequences. Deal with it.
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The kind of 'compassionate conservatism' that will bring us a return to the deadly child labor brutalities


Cephus said:
Whereas I worked my ass off and paid for my college 100% out of my own pocket. Whether you *need* scholarships or not, I certainly qualified for several, even though I didn't go to those particular schools. Scholarships are based on scholastic performance.
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Scholastic performance got me into a program that rejects tens of thousands every year and, due to the value of that degree, has billions to cover the tuition for the few students from poor backgrounds. It's just another form of scholarship, which i turned down from lesser programs. I would be crazy to turn down a debt free education, but see, unlike you i'm also aware how rare that opportunity is.

As for "working my ass off" the program is way more rigorous than most and the grant allowed me to take internships (and study abroad if i had wanted to) in something directly related to my degree. Also, in 11th-12th grade i took the initiative at a local college for some 30 credits, allowing me to finish my degree early. I can see that my peers can accomplish great things, across the economic spectrum. But you need the foot in door first, and that's something that's become more and more rare. That's why less than 2% here are first gen students

I don't know if you started before the great recession either, but that's certainly changed things for the lower-middle class

Cephus said:
I didn't say anything about AA and women or gay people. I said scholarships. And no, caring about "equality" is pointless. The best people ought to get in, regardless of all other factors. Nobody ought to care about the racial makeup of a school, or how many women vs. men, or how many gay people get in or anything else. Higher education is supposed to be about merit, not equality.
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There is no measure for "best people." Most qualified can mean whatever, such as "proven commitment to diversity", just another way to get the minorities in

Very few people qualify for significant scholarships regardless, and admission to a top 20 school usually means significant grant $ regardless of race. I don't even know how a gay person would take advantage of these things either, since how would you even prove that?
 
Cephus said:
chromium said:
right, as if the brats of the 1% going to their finishing schools don't get free stuff. Sanders was also an anamoly, so far
You really have a bizarre fixation on finishing schools, don't you? You should seek some professional help for that.



Hardly, but you keep telling yourself that. :roll:




Which, once again, doesn't happen nearly as much in poor Hispanic, Asian or white neighborhoods. So what is wrong with blacks that they have all of those issues? And no, don't go pointing fingers at everyone else, it's their own damn fault.



Only because black families are far more likely to be broken than any other racial group. That's someone else's fault too, right?



They are living in the ghetto because they are not living responsibly. If they gave priority to getting an education, to living a responsible life, to obeying the law and maintaining the family, more black people would be able to move out of the ghettos than do. People who live decent lives don't spend generations in poverty.
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OMG dude, the topic is AA and then shifted towards college, as in the KIDS of these groups. "Living responsibly" has nothing to do with the situation one is born into

If you want to start a manifesto on the shortcomings of negroes or whatever, i suggest do it elsewhere, like your local KKK meetup
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chromium said:
I don't at all mind the spoiled brats, and even friends with some, who genuinely want there to be opportunities for all, and are willing to "sacrifice" their own handouts in life from mommy and daddy for that possibility. After all, they can no more help who they were born to than the poor. You are definitely not one of those who even theoretically, and without having to sacrifice a damn thing, wants opportunities for others however
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you are just making crap up now and have no clue about others.
 
Employers, colleges, etc should be able to choose the best available choice, no matter the protected class.
 
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