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Is It Finally Time to Break up the USA? [W:84]

Break up the USA?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 15.0%

  • No

    Votes: 68 85.0%
  • Total voters
    80
jonny5

jonny5

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
27,581
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4,664
Location
Republic of Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
1. I'm not a liberal so save your partisan attacks on liberal whiners

2. I AM a libertarian and I supported Independence for ideological groups or states under Bush, Obama, and now Trump. Im hoping that liberals now finally realize that govt has gone too far, that their own tyrannical actions have led us to Trump, and the only way to secure the freedom to pursue their socialist agenda is to rid themselves of the conservative half of the country. Likewise, conservatives can have their theocracy/oligarchy, and libertarians can be left alone. Win Win Win.

So, are you ready to dissolve the political bands which have connected us with each other, to alter or to abolish the USA, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to you shall seem most likely to effect your Safety and Happiness?
 
jonny5 said:
1. I'm not a liberal so save your partisan attacks on liberal whiners

2. I AM a libertarian and I supported Independence for ideological groups or states under Bush, Obama, and now Trump. Im hoping that liberals now finally realize that govt has gone too far, that their own tyrannical actions have led us to Trump, and the only way to secure the freedom to pursue their socialist agenda is to rid themselves of the conservative half of the country. Likewise, conservatives can have their theocracy/oligarchy, and libertarians can be left alone. Win Win Win.

So, are you ready to dissolve the political bands which have connected us with each other, to alter or to abolish the USA, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to you shall seem most likely to effect your Safety and Happiness?
Click to expand...

Which parts break off libertarian? Most of Colorado and some of Oregon?

Where should my wife and I live? She's a progressive, and I'm a conservative leaning libertarian.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
Which parts break off libertarian? Most of Colorado and some of Oregon?

Where should my wife and I live? She's a progressive, and I'm a conservative leaning libertarian.
Click to expand...

Wherever you want. You can stay where you are, or move. Libertarians would probably go to Texas or New Hampshire, or make their own state.
 
jonny5 said:
Wherever you want. You can stay where you are, or move. Libertarians would probably go to Texas or New Hampshire, or make their own state.
Click to expand...

My point was that segregating the US into political areas is not as easy as breaking off a state or two here and there. There are parts of California that are too liberal for me and other parts that are too conservative for my wife, yet either of us could live *almost anywhere.

I think the socialists among us need the conservatives to keep them from causing another Venezuela, and the conservatives need the subjective morality of the liberals to avoid becoming tyrants. We libertarians are charged with moderating both sides to make sure the wackadoos aren't worshipped.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
My point was that segregating the US into political areas is not as easy as breaking off a state or two here and there. There are parts of California that are too liberal for me and other parts that are too conservative for my wife, yet either of us could live *almost anywhere.

I think the socialists among us need the conservatives to keep them from causing another Venezuela, and the conservatives need the subjective morality of the liberals to avoid becoming tyrants. We libertarians are charged with moderating both sides to make sure the wackadoos aren't worshipped.
Click to expand...

There you go then, you can live almost anywhere. The point here isnt the technical process if this were to happen, but rather finding out if people have gotten to the point of realizing that cats and dogs cant live together. That spending 99% of the time trying to destroy the other side does not make for a functional society.
 
jonny5 said:
There you go then, you can live almost anywhere. The point here isnt the technical process if this were to happen, but rather finding out if people have gotten to the point of realizing that cats and dogs cant live together. That spending 99% of the time trying to destroy the other side does not make for a functional society.
Click to expand...

The cats need the dogs, and vice versa. Otherwise... Venezuela.
 
jonny5 said:
1. I'm not a liberal so save your partisan attacks on liberal whiners

2. I AM a libertarian and I supported Independence for ideological groups or states under Bush, Obama, and now Trump. Im hoping that liberals now finally realize that govt has gone too far, that their own tyrannical actions have led us to Trump, and the only way to secure the freedom to pursue their socialist agenda is to rid themselves of the conservative half of the country. Likewise, conservatives can have their theocracy/oligarchy, and libertarians can be left alone. Win Win Win.

So, are you ready to dissolve the political bands which have connected us with each other, to alter or to abolish the USA, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to you shall seem most likely to effect your Safety and Happiness?
Click to expand...

While I agree that the vocal minority which represents the SJW Alt-Left is making enough noise to allow coverage by the MSM designed to give many American's and foreign cultures the idea that we are a nation in crisis, I think the election results show differently.

In the first place, only 56% of eligible American voter's actually participated in the last election. 44% opted not to vote at all. (BTW, that's a fairly standard turnout in such elections, at least since 1932).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_the_United_States_presidential_elections

IMO this second number consists of people who are either more concerned about their everyday lives and think their vote would have little to no impact, or they are content with society as is.

Of that remaining 56% who voted, only 48% voted for the chosen "business as usual" identity politics candidate touted as a shoe-in based on the progressive-left ideology.

That means 52% voted "other."

So we have a society where 44% chose "none," 30% chose other, and only 26% voted solid alt-left. We don't need to be guided by what 26% of our population thinks is "good."

IMO there isn't enough actual radical division right now to need secession. :shrug:

However, if the MSM and the Alt-Left continue in their current activities designed to created a powder-keg of divisiveness? My opinion may change. :coffeepap:
 
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We have absolutely no resolve.... There should be an almost unanimous consensus on why we would split and how to resolve the conflicts before we split. This would leave us the best opportunity to reunify if such a division were truly necessary. I believe a new constitution and economical structure are needed. I don't think enough people will know why, which will allow the problems to persist no matter how the people of the continent restructured.
 
Captain Adverse said:
While I agree that the vocal minority which represents the SJW Alt-Left is making enough noise to allow coverage by the MSM designed to give many American's and foreign cultures the idea that we are a nation in crisis, I think the election results show differently.

In the first place, only 56% of eligible American voter's actually participated in the last election. 44% opted not to vote at all.

IMO this second number consists of people who are either more concerned about their everyday lives and think their vote would have little to no impact, or they are content with society as is.

Of that remaining 56% who voted, only 48% voted for the chosen "business as usual" identity politics candidate touted as a shoe-in based on the progressive-left ideology.

That means 52% voted "other."

So we have a society where 44% chose "none," 30% chose other, and only 26% voted solid alt-left. We don't need to be guided by what 26% of our population thinks is "good."

IMO there isn't enough actual radical division right now to need secession. :shrug:

However, if the MSM and the Alt-Left continue in their current activities designed to created a powder-keg of divisiveness? My opinion may change. :coffeepap:
Click to expand...

That actually makes it worse. I not even being controlled by a majority of citizens, but a minority who even bother to take part.
 
Captain Adverse said:
While I agree that the vocal minority which represents the SJW Alt-Left is making enough noise to allow coverage by the MSM designed to give many American's and foreign cultures the idea that we are a nation in crisis, I think the election results show differently.

In the first place, only 56% of eligible American voter's actually participated in the last election. 44% opted not to vote at all.

IMO this second number consists of people who are either more concerned about their everyday lives and think their vote would have little to no impact, or they are content with society as is.

Of that remaining 56% who voted, only 48% voted for the chosen "business as usual" identity politics candidate touted as a shoe-in based on the progressive-left ideology.

That means 52% voted "other."

So we have a society where 44% chose "none," 30% chose other, and only 26% voted solid alt-left. We don't need to be guided by what 26% of our population thinks is "good."

IMO there isn't enough actual radical division right now to need secession. :shrug:

However, if the MSM and the Alt-Left continue in their current activities designed to created a powder-keg of divisiveness? My opinion may change. :coffeepap:
Click to expand...

That is a very good argument, however, I'm not sure the percentage who doesn't show up really doesn't matter, because all the alt-left needs is 271 electoral votes. If you can suppress turnout for the other side through misinformation and fake news, then you can make your candle shine brighter by blowing out the other one. This works for the alt-right as well.
 
I've wondered at times if this might not be the only way to keep peace, or to prevent the US from becoming an ideological version of the 17th century monarchy (ie when the king is catholic the protestants are oppressed, when the king is protestant the catholics are oppressed), due to the excessive power of the presidency and the fedgov in general.

As long as you can vote with your feet, you could move to Libertaria, Commutopia or whatever state suited you.

It wouldn't necessarily even require breaking up the USA... just restoring autonomy/sovereignty to the States and limiting the Fedgov to Section 8 powers.


Might as well try to eat an elephant and make that happen though... all that power yielded without violence... not bloody likely. Depressing thought.



Maybe I should go buy another case of rifle ammo.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
My point was that segregating the US into political areas is not as easy as breaking off a state or two here and there. There are parts of California that are too liberal for me and other parts that are too conservative for my wife, yet either of us could live *almost anywhere.

I think the socialists among us need the conservatives to keep them from causing another Venezuela, and the conservatives need the subjective morality of the liberals to avoid becoming tyrants. We libertarians are charged with moderating both sides to make sure the wackadoos aren't worshipped.
Click to expand...

So the libertarians possess the absolute truth?
 
Goshin said:
I've wondered at times if this might not be the only way to keep peace, or to prevent the US from becoming an ideological version of the 17th century monarchy (ie when the king is catholic the protestants are oppressed, when the king is protestant the catholics are oppressed), due to the excessive power of the presidency and the fedgov in general.

As long as you can vote with your feet, you could move to Libertaria, Commutopia or whatever state suited you.

It wouldn't necessarily even require breaking up the USA... just restoring autonomy/sovereignty to the States and limiting the Fedgov to Section 8 powers.


Might as well try to eat an elephant and make that happen though... all that power yielded without violence. Depressing thought.



Maybe I should go buy another case of rifle ammo.
Click to expand...

Kinda sounds like the original USA. States could operate how they saw fit other than harming each other. And they gave authority to a central power for foreign relations and standardizing trade. Citizens could move where they felt best representaed their values.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
My point was that segregating the US into political areas is not as easy as breaking off a state or two here and there. There are parts of California that are too liberal for me and other parts that are too conservative for my wife, yet either of us could live *almost anywhere.

I think the socialists among us need the conservatives to keep them from causing another Venezuela, and the conservatives need the subjective morality of the liberals to avoid becoming tyrants. We libertarians are charged with moderating both sides to make sure the wackadoos aren't worshipped.
Click to expand...

Most socialists do not want Venezuelan societies because IMO most socialists are wrongly identified as socialists but are in fact part progressives and social democrats who are horrified of Venezuelan type socialism. They want a less capitalist country with more protection for the vulnerable and equality, not socialist style destruction of the middle classes.

Social democrats and progressive capitalist light people want good regulation (fair) to protect the middle class and the vulnerable people while still not overtaxing the rich in a manner that is totally counter productive to a just and equitable society.
 
I don't care of the OP composer is liberal or conservative...its a stupid question.
 
jonny5 said:
1. I'm not a liberal so save your partisan attacks on liberal whiners

2. I AM a libertarian and I supported Independence for ideological groups or states under Bush, Obama, and now Trump. Im hoping that liberals now finally realize that govt has gone too far, that their own tyrannical actions have led us to Trump, and the only way to secure the freedom to pursue their socialist agenda is to rid themselves of the conservative half of the country. Likewise, conservatives can have their theocracy/oligarchy, and libertarians can be left alone. Win Win Win.

So, are you ready to dissolve the political bands which have connected us with each other, to alter or to abolish the USA, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to you shall seem most likely to effect your Safety and Happiness?
Click to expand...

Who gets what? That's where the drama begins.
 
DifferentDrummr said:
A breakup would not accomplish anything.
Click to expand...

It would accomplish making those of us who want less govt, happy. It would allow liberals go full single payer healthcare, move the entire worlds poor into their states, soak the rich, etc.
 
jonny5 said:
It would accomplish making those of us who want less govt, happy. It would allow liberals go full single payer healthcare, move the entire worlds poor into their states, soak the rich, etc.
Click to expand...

No, it wouldn't. That's just your flavor of koolaid.
 
Break up the U.S.? LoL... you must be kidding and a bit high on the Trump phenomena making you think anything is possible now. The problem right now is there is a disconnect between the powerful / wealthy / politicians and the people. Those in power very heavily favor right-wing ideology because it suits their economic agenda. The only real left-wing power in America is cultural. Now if you look at the people, the alt-right is old, they're dying, they're going out of style, their days are numbered. Trump's chance at the presidency was a fluke before this all goes away almost completely in the next decade. The rest of America is generally pretty liberal / reasonable conservative / reasonable libertarian and they're really not into this orange Hitler "movement".

No need to break up the U.S. Just wait 4 years and Trump will be gone (if not probably sooner). Wait 10 years and the alt-right will be all but completely gone. The reasonable faction of the right will take back some power along with the left and we'll be back to two parties working feverishly to gently rape the people's bank accounts while soothing their nerves. With any luck the millions of Bernie supporters will have carved out a piece of power and we'll be moving towards a more fair economic model.

I was hoping to shrug off the stench of cronyism with Bernie as CIC but it looks like we're going to have to wait another 4 years and take back congress and the DNC first.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
Which parts break off libertarian? Most of Colorado and some of Oregon?

Where should my wife and I live? She's a progressive, and I'm a conservative leaning libertarian.
Click to expand...

Split Oregon along ideological lines and you have Portland, Eugene, parts of Salem, the west side of Bend and part of Medford on the left, with the rest of the state on the right...
 
jonny5 said:
Kinda sounds like the original USA. States could operate how they saw fit other than harming each other. And they gave authority to a central power for foreign relations and standardizing trade. Citizens could move where they felt best representaed their values.
Click to expand...

If only we could get back to that, it would solve pretty much every issue that is literally tearing this country apart.
 
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