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Do you support torture?

Do you support torture?

  • Total voters
    109
TurtleDude said:
the claim that torture doesn't work as an absolute is wrong. true, torturing people can cause them to "give you a name" to stop the torture and that name might be completely detached from the actions the target of the torture is charged with. But information has been derived from torture that was accurate.

the claim that torture doesn't work is true when the target doesn't have the information being sought. when the target does, the absolute claim is wrong.
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Let's take that thought and kick around for a second. But first let's clarify who these people are, or are supposed to be, terrorists. Now we both know enough to know how they operate, few if any actually know anything beyond they own small group or cell, they do this on purpose, to keep from being able to give much of anything information wise under interrogation. Not even high ranking leaders among them know all that much and those that do are not likely to be captured, that is why we tend to simply drone them and be done wit them. So that begs the question who are those we have detained, are they major leaders, maybe a handful and they have been out of the game too long to give any real information, the rest are either midlevel operators, foot soldiers and people we Think might be a terrorist. So, what information will we actually get for throwing away our own morals and ethics, not much if anything. So do we torture them like the NVA used to do, just for the fun of it, to make them pay for being our enemies, one has to ask why do some of them still get submitted to it? The only way to know who they are would be to put them on trial, public or not, and sentence them for their crimes if they are guilty or release them if we cannot prove our case, as an Officer of the Court I would think that trials are way overdue, because Justice is what we are supposed to stand for as a Nation. Agree or Not?
 
Not only all that, we aren't putting people on "the rack". They are no good to you dead. You want to dump them in a cell so their buddies have something to have nightmares about. The message is: "Cooperation is voluntary".

It's all about water boarding.

Are you afraid of Muslim extremists will be cutting off heads with dull knives as "payback". Get a grip. These people are depraved killers.
 
Depends. Torture just because or for small stuff... no. Jack Whatever from 24 trying to stop an immenent nuclear explosion and he has to know now!!... yes.
 
TurtleDude said:
let me ask it this way (this was on an ethics test for a course I took in college 37 years ago)

you're the chief of police for NYC. you have credible information that a terrorist cell is going to detonate a nuclear bomb somewhere in Manhattan. you raid the suspected headquarters of the terrorists. all but one of them get away with the bomb.

what do you do with the captured terrorist.

or the other version

you are sound asleep when your alarm goes off. you see several men dragging your child into a van. the last of the kidnappers fires a shot at you and you return fire, breaking his leg. His confederates speed away with your child. is it ethical for you to say treat him the same way Clint Eastwood did to the killer in "Dirty Harry"?
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The obvious answer is to dress them in a nice suit and take them out to a steak dinner at Keenes followed by cocktails and river views at Penthouse 808. During the feasting and drinking the interrogator should affirm their humanity, recognize their victimhood and apologize for their disenfranchisement at the hands of heterosexual white male Americans. If that doesn't get them to spill the beans then promptly accede to their demands to release any and all political prisoners they identify and supply a planeload of cash, preferably in denominations no larger than a $20.
 
TurtleDude said:
yeah don't ask don't tell
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With a nuke, the moral thing is do anything you can because it is the only thing you can do, am still an American and maybe you noticed I am not a pacifist either. That said, that has not been, and doubtfully ever be, a scenario that will be played out, and we both know that if it ever did neither you nor I would ever know it happened.
 
spud_meister said:
Here's another one. You're an American soldier deployed in the Middle East, and you get captured by enemy combatants. Do you support torture?

You're arrested for a series of murders you didn't commit, and the police want to know where you hid the bodies. Do you support torture?

You're a child that's sound asleep when you're kidnapped by a bunch of men, one of whom ends up getting shot in the leg. They want to know details about your parents house and activities. Do you support torture?
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Oh jeez... :lol:

The topic is about US Government sponsored torture ... not what we know ISIS will do or some sleezy kidnapper who will prabably rape and kill the kid anyway.
 
Lutherf said:
The obvious answer is to dress them in a nice suit and take them out to a steak dinner at Keenes followed by cocktails and river views at Penthouse 808. During the feasting and drinking the interrogator should affirm their humanity, recognize their victimhood and apologize for their disenfranchisement at the hands of heterosexual white male Americans. If that doesn't get them to spill the beans then promptly accede to their demands to release any and all political prisoners they identify and supply a planeload of cash, preferably in denominations no larger than a $20.
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Don't Bogart that joint, stop typing and pass that over here:mrgreen:
 
Jetboogieman said:
Get ready, lots of extremely... Tough... People are about to come into this thread and tell us all about saving lives.
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And yet those who do will probably not actually, you know, vote in the poll!
 
spud_meister said:
Here's another one. You're an American soldier deployed in the Middle East, and you get captured by enemy combatants. Do you support torture?

You're arrested for a series of murders you didn't commit, and the police want to know where you hid the bodies. Do you support torture?

You're a child that's sound asleep when you're kidnapped by a bunch of men, one of whom ends up getting shot in the leg. They want to know details about your parents house and activities. Do you support torture?
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You have to be worth something to torture. A soldier? If he's smart he'll die first rather than let them torture him to death.
Bodies & child - they will anyway. The US's policy is irrelevant.
 
Casper said:
With a nuke, the moral thing is do anything you can because it is the only thing you can do, am still an American and maybe you noticed I am not a pacifist either. That said, that has not been, and doubtfully ever be, a scenario that will be played out, and we both know that if it ever did neither you nor I would ever know it happened.
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That's the point though, it's an ethics question. Once you have condoned torture in one scenario where exactly do you draw the line.
 
Crovax said:
That's the point though, it's an ethics question. Once you have condoned torture in one scenario where exactly do you draw the line.
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The problem is also a lack of agreement as to what is torture and what isn't. The controversy du jure is whether waterboarding is torture. Breaking fingers is, waterboarding isn't.
 
I am 100% against Torture. I am for humane laws -- Canada and Scandinavia have much more humane laws then USA.
 
SheWolf said:
Trump has been know to make supportive comments on torture. Most recently, he says "it works," so do you agree? Do you support torture?
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I still consider him The Lesser Evil, but I am against Torture. I believe Canada and Scandinavia have much more humane justice systems then USA.
 
I'm with Edith Bunker who once said 'yes i support it as long as it's not too severe.'
Though I think she said that about capital punishment.
 
Crovax said:
That's the point though, it's an ethics question. Once you have condoned torture in one scenario where exactly do you draw the line.
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Right there, was that confusing?
 
Crovax said:
That's the point though, it's an ethics question. Once you have condoned torture in one scenario where exactly do you draw the line.
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The one that wants to win doesn't have lines
 
slick said:
I'm with Edith Bunker who once said 'yes i support it as long as it's not too severe.'
Though I think she said that about capital punishment.
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Is Edith the sister of Judith?
 
TurtleDude said:
let me ask it this way (this was on an ethics test for a course I took in college 37 years ago)

you're the chief of police for NYC. you have credible information that a terrorist cell is going to detonate a nuclear bomb somewhere in Manhattan. you raid the suspected headquarters of the terrorists. all but one of them get away with the bomb.

what do you do with the captured terrorist.
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Has that scenario ever happened?

In another post, you said torture works. There were several claims of torture, or enhanced interrogation, working over the course of the Bush administration which were later debunked by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...cias-claims-and-what-the-committee-found.html

CIA Debunks Its Own Claims About Torture

Top takeaways from the CIA torture report - CNNPolitics.com
 
Gina said:
Has that scenario ever happened?

In another post, you said torture works. There were several claims of torture, or enhanced interrogation, working over the course of the Bush administration which were later debunked by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...cias-claims-and-what-the-committee-found.html

CIA Debunks Its Own Claims About Torture

Top takeaways from the CIA torture report - CNNPolitics.com
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It depends on the information and if the target has it. a fellow I met in Kenya when hunting there 40 years ago played a large role in crushing the Mau Mau rebellion. He claimed it worked. I had no reason to doubt him
 
TurtleDude said:
It depends on the information and if the target has it. a fellow I met in Kenya when hunting there 40 years ago played a large role in crushing the Mau Mau rebellion. He claimed it worked. I had no reason to doubt him
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Since you didn't answer my question as to that scenario, I'm going to take that as a no. I didn't see it as relevant to the poll question and that's why I was asking.

To your anecdote, even if one were to take that on faith, it's one story in light of the senate report documenting torture did not work in. The information that lead to the positive resolution of several high profile targets/incidents, as reported in those links, were not accomplished through torture.
 
Although, I do have to say, TurtleDude makes a damn good argument for a position I would not normally agree with.
 
Gina said:
Since you didn't answer my question as to that scenario, I'm going to take that as a no. I didn't see it as relevant to the poll question and that's why I was asking.

To your anecdote, even if one were to take that on faith, it's one story in light of the senate report documenting torture did not work in. The information that lead to the positive resolution of several high profile targets/incidents, as reported in those links, were not accomplished through torture.
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to say torture never works is silly. and torture can be such a wide ranging definition it makes a universal claim stupid.
 
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